2008/2009 Football (Soccer) Thread

[Amarr HM]

Nah United would never have won Ronaldo wouldn't have been allowed much space Liverpool defended immensely. Yeh I would have liked to see Nani on sooner I think the Giggs Scholes thing is kinda old hat at this stage.

[lamaros]

Nah United would never have won Ronaldo wouldn't have been allowed much space Liverpool defended immensely. Yeh I would have liked to see Nani on sooner I think the Giggs Scholes thing is kinda old hat at this stage.

Do please explain how Liverpool would have scored if it wasn't for the colective brain fades of VDS and then Giggs later in the game. I'm not suggesting Utd would have scored again. but if VDS hadn't gifted them the goal then Utd would have been in front still and they were defending just as solidly as Liverpool were for most of the game, even once the own goal handed Liverpool the momentum and Carricks injury lowered Utd's possession.

[Endie]

Delighted 'pool fan checking in.  I thought it had a lot to do with:

- Ferguson's mistake with Rooney.  You have a player on-fire for his country and you decide to play him out of position, wide on the right?  Terrible decision.  I look forward to Wenger asking Walcott to play in a holding midfield role.

- Ronaldo not playing.  The best player in the league will always make a few chances, and he would have let Rooney play more centrally.

- Kuyt and Keane pressing.  I am not normally a huge fan of Kuyt, who does work hard but makes the game look like hard work, too.  And Keane has yet to settle.  But the two of them put in a massive amount of energy in stopping Man Utd playing their passing game from the back.  The loss of Carrick made this easier.

- Man Utd looking jaded.  Ferdinand was pretty good at the back but the midfield were posted missing.

- Vidic being Vidic.  Great at coming up and attacking corners, but not always the wisest player on the pitch.  His clattering challenge, three yards from the ref, might not quite have been a yellow early in the game and 20 yards from the whistler.  But what a daft risk to take 18 yards out and needing to put pressure on Liverpool.  I was actually surprised that it affected Man Utd in as limited way as it did.

I don't hugely blame Giggs: everyone does that and tries to shepherd the ball out.  We were just playing an intense pressing game.  Babbel (give him more game time, Rafa) won a similarly lost cause a few minutes later before Kuyt shot tamely.

Amarr and I used to have some fairly heated Red vs Red (ultra-)late-night arguments on DF teamspeak.

[lamaros]

- Ferguson's mistake with Rooney.  You have a player on-fire for his country and you decide to play him out of position, wide on the right?  Terrible decision.  I look forward to Wenger asking Walcott to play in a holding midfield role.

- Ronaldo not playing.  The best player in the league will always make a few chances, and he would have let Rooney play more centrally.

Ronaldo is still coming back from injury. He 'might' play against Villireal on Wednesday.

Rooney defends. Playing Nani or Giggs wide would have put a lot more pressure on the team to defend early. And they played well early.

Also I think Nani having playing the international and not played for the team yet this season was part of the deal too. To throw someone into the team for their first game of the season in a big game coming off an international who can't defend that well in an away game. I think that's why Rooney got the nod.

Remember that Nani had been out, Hargraves battling his injury. Ronaldo out injured. Park still injured. Most of them having played internationals. An away game. Etc. I think the team sheet reflected a lot of that. I expect once Nani and Ronaldo and Park are fit and have got a few games you won't see Rooney back there much and will instead see the forwards rested a bit.

[Endie]

Ronaldo is still coming back from injury. He 'might' play against Villireal on Wednesday.

Yep, I didn't mean that Ronaldo's unavailability was Ferguson's fault.  Frankly, part of me hopes they're rushing him back too soon and he relapses for a few weeks, though the rugby player in me tries to shout that idea down.

Rooney defends. Playing Nani or Giggs wide would have put a lot more pressure on the team to defend early. And they played well early.

I'm a great believer in playing your best players in their best positions.  Rooney is a terrifying prospect coming right at a defence fomr a central position.  The defence will react by trying to shepherd him out wide.  Ferguson put him there to begin with.

Also I think Nani having playing the international and not played for the team yet this season was part of the deal too. To throw someone into the team for their first game of the season in a big game coming off an international who can't defend that well in an away game. I think that's why Rooney got the nod.

I think you're right as to Ferguson's reasoning.  It was still a relief.

Edit: fixed my broken quotes

[HaemishM]

Yeah, I don't necessarily expect that result to be repeated at Old Trafford. Ronalado alone would have made a huge difference in that game.

[Amarr HM]

I have to disagree he would have been given no quarter and ended up throwing hissy fits, he rarely plays well against Liverpool or the other top teams. We had a good team on paper but Carrick coming off changed the perplexion of the United game as the usually uber composed Scholes looked jaded. We resorted to playing long balls into Berbatov and the tactics reminded me of how we used to play with Nistelrooy in the team. As far as how I think Liverpool would have scored I don't think it really matters, they deserved the win.

[lamaros]

I have to disagree he would have been given no quarter and ended up throwing hissy fits, he rarely plays well against Liverpool or the other top teams. We had a good team on paper but Carrick coming off changed the perplexion of the United game as the usually uber composed Scholes looked jaded. We resorted to playing long balls into Berbatov and the tactics reminded me of how we used to play with Nistelrooy in the team. As far as how I think Liverpool would have scored I don't think it really matters, they deserved the win.

Hasn't this 'Ronaldo never plays well against top teams" shit been put to bed already. Yawn. 

[Endie]

Hasn't this 'Ronaldo never plays well against top teams" shit been put to bed already. Yawn. 

Well, if you say "against a team not at the top of their game he will have the space to be devastating" I think it's easier to swallow.  He's a great player, but well-organised teams with a fast wing-back or left-back can mitigate that to a large degree, especially if they niggle him a bit.  Once his head goes down and he gets that petulant, vitimised attitude then he's no longer so much of a threat.

[lamaros]

Hasn't this 'Ronaldo never plays well against top teams" shit been put to bed already. Yawn. 

Well, if you say "against a team not at the top of their game he will have the space to be devastating" I think it's easier to swallow.  He's a great player, but well-organised teams with a fast wing-back or left-back can mitigate that to a large degree, especially if they niggle him a bit.  Once his head goes down and he gets that petulant, vitimised attitude then he's no longer so much of a threat.

Tell that to Lyon, Chelsea, etc etc. Really. He can certainly be petulant, and he can certainly have bad games, but as for him going missing in big games that not really true, unless you have those situations where the other team plays 3 people on him and thus leaves others free.

[Endie]

Hasn't this 'Ronaldo never plays well against top teams" shit been put to bed already. Yawn. 

Well, if you say "against a team not at the top of their game he will have the space to be devastating" I think it's easier to swallow.  He's a great player, but well-organised teams with a fast wing-back or left-back can mitigate that to a large degree, especially if they niggle him a bit.  Once his head goes down and he gets that petulant, vitimised attitude then he's no longer so much of a threat.

Tell that to Lyon, Chelsea, etc etc. Really. He can certainly be petulant, and he can certainly have bad games, but as for him going missing in big games that not really true, unless you have those situations where the other team plays 3 people on him and thus leaves others free.

I said "can" mitigate it.  Not "will".  I don't imagine that, if you look at my post again, you really disagree with it that much.  Ronaldo is a great player, but a fast and agile marker who uses physical presence to frustrate him can, not will, cause Ronaldo to waste effort in amateur dramatics or even in disinterested surliness.  Yes, he can perform against top clubs.  What I said was that he is fairly consistently devastating against lesser clubs where he has the time and space to use his full arsenal of tricks.

[Amarr HM]

Actually yeah that's what I'm saying, it's not that he's not a big game player, it's just against Liverpool, Chelsea (under mourhinho) and other teams that defend deep and pile on the pressure he can get frustrated and that's why he's earned the negative big game tag which I also don't agree with. In fact last year against Chelsea in Stamford bridge he played great, probably due to the fact Chelsea played a more open game under Avram.

[lamaros]

I said "can" mitigate it.  Not "will".  I don't imagine that, if you look at my post again, you really disagree with it that much.  Ronaldo is a great player, but a fast and agile marker who uses physical presence to frustrate him can, not will, cause Ronaldo to waste effort in amateur dramatics or even in disinterested surliness.  Yes, he can perform against top clubs.  What I said was that he is fairly consistently devastating against lesser clubs where he has the time and space to use his full arsenal of tricks.

The thing is, people single him out and say stuff like this when really it can apply to nearly any good player in the world when the opposition has a plan that plays against their strengths. Yet people mention it about Ronaldo as if he is somehow more inclined to go missing in big games than other great players, when it's just more likely that he can be so devestating when playing well that he is always singled out for treatment, while some other star players aren't consistently.

I dont disagree with you, I was just disagreeing with the idea that there is some sort of special criticism that can be leveled at Ronaldo alone. In this regard I think you can only really say that he can be inclined to be petulant and whingy, things which I very much dislike. However they don't make him play a whole lot worse. Other players, like Rooney and Tevez for example, suffer from much worse character flaws in attitude in that they get pissed off and can lose their self control; something that has much more of an impact on how well they and the team plays.

[Endie]

I particularly agree with you on Rooney, there.  Like Ronaldo, though, he's still quite young, and Ferguson should be able to shape their attitudes.

[Amarr HM]

I think that's one of the reasons Fergie didn't introduce him on Saturday, after the summer he had w/injury and the Real kerfuffle, to put him into Lion's Den at Anfield would have been a terrible way to introduce him for the sake of eking out a result on the offchance he could make an impact.

[lamaros]

We're still doing spoilers about the champ. league games, right? I ask because I usually watch them live and don't want to ruin it for anyone else, but I'm not sure who follows this thread apart from Haem and the other posters, and how long a spoiler window you all require.

[HaemishM]

I'd say you can talk about Champion's League games on the Fridays after all the games are done. I watched the Liverpool game, and won't be spoiled on any of the other scores.

[Mr_PeaCH]

Questions, so many questions...

What was the deal with the West Ham jerseys... which sponsor were we not supposed to glimpse?  (That white patch with the number on the front was F'n lame.)

Speaking of dubious sponsors... how soon before mighty ManU have to go shopping for new jerseys?  (To replace AIG.)

Speaking of Manu... will Berbatov EVER be happy with the inability of his teammates to get him the ball *just so*?

Speaking of Berb's old team... will Tottenham ever win again in the Prem?  And what happened to Modric, is he injured or something?  And and... I know it's a bad deal for Tottenham to take Campbell on loan from ManU with no real chance to sign him permanently, but DAMN can the kid play.

[HaemishM]

Frazier Campbell is the shit. I keep telling you guys how good this kid is.

Serious questions... STOKE? REALLY? You can't even get one fucking goal against STOKE? UGGGGGGGGGGGGG.

[Amarr HM]

Yeh Liverpool always suffer in the bit part games hence why they probably won't win any titles in the near future.

[Endie]

Not our best moment.  I honestly thought we'd put them away comfortably, and take advantage of the fact that at least one of Chelsea or Man Utd had to drop points.

As it is, Amarr, only another 17 or 18 poor results and Fergie will begin to hear murmurs about his position :D

[Amarr HM]

United are perennial slow starters so I'm not too worried especially as it's going to be tight again this season with a lot of teams capable of giant killing even Sunderland look like potential party spoilers and Hull are in Championship ejaculation mode at the moment, but that will probably wear off with the Christmas hangovers. Liverpool are still in with a shot undubably but I don't see them producing performances like they did against Manu week in week out & definitely a stronger squad with Keane and Riera.

[lamaros]

Cheslea is the only worry really. I don't think Arsenal will keep it up either. But Chelsea can grind grind grind for loot. This period with Deco, Essien and Carvahlo out will say a lot about their chances. If they swing through watch out.

However once Berba and Ronaldo settle back in I think Utd will stomp some face. I expect them to win a few trophies this year even if not the Prem.

[HaemishM]

The last two seasons has seen Chelsea have significant injury periods for big players and yet they still manage to stay in the race both seasons. The loss of Carvahlo is no big thing, IMO, as he's overrated. But losing Deco and Essien will hurt. They really are the team I pick to win it. The other big 4's will be in it, but Arsenal doesn't have the depth and Liverpool is still missing something. Man. U. still have to get all the parts to gel, but I really don't see the top of the table changing much this season. I think Everton is going to fall some places and Villa will be there to take up the slack. Portsmouth? I just don't know, I thought Crouch would make them better, but they have been woefully inconsistent so far. Man. City may really make that push into the UEFA spots.

[Amarr HM]

Cheslea is the only worry really. I don't think Arsenal will keep it up either. But Chelsea can grind grind grind for loot. This period with Deco, Essien and Carvahlo out will say a lot about their chances. If they swing through watch out.

However once Berba and Ronaldo settle back in I think Utd will stomp some face. I expect them to win a few trophies this year even if not the Prem.

I agree but does anyone else think Scolari's pedigree is a tad questionable or am I being priggish?  I mean I could probably manage Brazil and win the world cup it's not really a massive feat, I felt even Ireland could have won the World Cup in 2002 with a decent manager the standard was that poor. Also Portugal were seasonal underachievers with him in charge so I think he has a lot to prove in my book.

[lamaros]

The loss of Carvahlo is no big thing, IMO, as he's overrated.

Look up their points average when he is and isn't in the team then get back to me about how "overrated" you think he is. 

I think Scolari has done really well in international managment. The question is how well he will do over the season, which is a whole different thing. But Chelsea was solid with Grant, so Scolari would really have to stuff up to have a negative impact.

[Amarr HM]

Sure he was OK at international management winning the World Cup with Brazil is like saying your Roger Federers psychological coach, but a 60 game season is a whole different kettle of fish ;) I agree Carvalho is a damn good defender I'd take him over John Terry anyday for the most part cause I think JT's a cunt.

[HaemishM]

Of course JT's a cunt... you have to be a tremendous douchebag to play for Chelsea. It's in the contracts.

I'm not saying Carvahlo isn't better than the other options on Chelsea's team... it's just that past John Terry, they don't have any good defending defenders on that team. Partly because they are forced to go on the attack by managerial fiat and partly because they just buy shitty defenders. I actually think Wayne Bridge is better than Carvahlo, he's just not a central defender. Bosingwa might not be so bad, but again... not central. I mean, they put Essien in the role a lot when Carvahlo was out last year. While Essien is good, he was thoroughly out of position. So yes, Chelsea is better with him in there because they haven't bought anybody else worth a shit.

[sigil]

*Sees the conversation*

*Looks again at Spurs pathetic performance*

*cries a single tear and closes the window*

[lamaros]

Terrible decision by the ref. Just flat out terrible.

Berbatov did some very useful things though. And I think Rooney demonstrated why he should start over Tevez. Looking forward to seeing Berba, Rooney, Scholes, and Ronaldo on the pitch at the same time In the Champions League. And Carrick or Hargraves in the team instead of Fletcher (gah).

[Endie]

Hey, leave the token Jocko alone :(

PS Torres is the man.

[HaemishM]

PS Torres is the man.

Motherfucker yes.

Also, LOLZ ARSENAL. Hull is staying up this year. What a strike by Geovanni.

[Amarr HM]

Hull are in Championship ejaculation mode at the moment

[Mr_PeaCH]

Oh, Hull absolutely made my week!

No joy in Tottenham still.

[Amarr HM]

On paper Tottenham have quite a good team but the pundits called it, playing one man up front against Portsmouth was a bad idea. I was surprised Man. City lost they are playing so well I was wondering what has happened to Benjani?