How did EVE avoid Shadowbane's and POTBS' problems?

[Surlyboi]

I'm as sci-fi as it gets and I still can't bring myself to play EVE. I'll play the shit out of EQ2 and AOC though....

[Ratman_tf]

Who thinks EVE is detailed? The game is almost totally devoid of content. It's one of the main reasons I always get driven away from the game.

Wow, yet another space station... around yet another featureless planet. ooooo.... some asteroids. There's nothing to see in that game. And when you are fighting other players, they are just some way points on your screen with a name tag. The only detailed part of the game is the damned graphing calculator you have to use just to figure out how to sell the ore you spend 4hrs farming.

Like the thread says, Eve succeeded in being the best Empire building game out there so far. In that arena, it's hellaciously detailed and full of content. If you don't like Empire building, it's going to be another PvE snorefest with spaceships instead of rats and bats. Moreso, since that isn't the prime focus of Eve.

[Venkman]

Content is the other people. I'll take your sci-fi people hate fantasy and raise you with most MMOs not being all that actually massive.

Lookit what's been happening for 10 years: smaller content, compartmentalized encounters, fewer choices. Giive it another five years and we'll be playing Mass Effect with a monthly fee. The market itself doesn't want the "massive" this genre is capable of, as proven by it only existing in a few hardcore titles of which Eve is far and away the biggest.

[Fordel]

The market want's the option of 'Massive', not the requirement.

[Drugstore Space Cowboy]

I'm as sci-fi as it gets and I still can't bring myself to play EVE. I'll play the shit out of EQ2 and AOC though....

You should play WoW: The Burning Crusade. I can has goat on spaec chip?   

[Drugstore Space Cowboy]

The market want's the option of 'Massive', not the requirement.

How so? I mean, that makes very little sense without explanation.

[Fordel]

Example: While lots of people enjoy 25 man raiding (in WoW), few enjoy it being the only route available. The reality of organizing and gathering 25 people at the same time/place is quite daunting for most folks. Having the lesser/smaller routes to follow, especially the solo/small group routes is very much desired.

The Idea of a shared space is very alluring and interesting. The Idea of playing along side dozens if not hundreds of other people at once sounds grand. The practicality of doing so limits the exposure. The compartmentalization of game play, isn't so much a sign that people dislike the 'massive' game play, but rather that they want something to do when the massive route isn't realistically feasible for them a great deal of the time.


I like going to the park. I would enjoy the park much less if I was required to join/bring 10-20 odd people every time I wanted to visit the park, so we could play Baseball and only Baseball.


I suppose it's a question of inclusiveness.


PS. Go go needlessly wordy reply me! 

-edit-

Basically, giving people shit to do when they can't commit to the larger game play, be it a dungeon raid, or a EVE fleet op, doesn't mean people don't want to do those things.

[Endie]

An ability for low skill players to still help (look at what goonswarm did prove, that you could throw new players in cheap ships to support better skilled/equipped players), a feeling of Victory for griefers (ship destruction! Podding!) that really doesn't matter (t1 ship insurance! t2.. not so much)

Goonswarm is a horrible example, there an exception, not a norm. What Goonswarm showed was that if you have a pre-existing community of Tens of Thousands, you can carve out a chunk of EVE for yourself. Once again, it's a question of scale.

This is not true.  There were a plethora of goon corps and even alliances before goonfleet/goonswarm.  They crashed and burned time after time, despite the huge reservoir.  The achievement of The Dear Leader was to provide a cultural environment that could bind goons together and exploit what was a key resource, but not by any means a cause, of GF's success.

More than that, I'd say that the contribution of SA is to pre-filter a key cadre efficiently, rather than to act as a newbie hose.  From what you say, you might be surprised at the balance of membership.

TL;DR: the key cause for GF's success is cultural, and not entirely different in that respect from what made BoB so successful.

[Endie]

Now, in Eve, the PvE grind was simply horrendous--literally weeks of farming--either rats or missions--simply to get enough ISK to buy even a primary ship and a backup that was anything more than a tackler. I made one tactical mistake when farming, just one, and lost 3 full weeks of work on my primary farming ship, and was looking at either a loan, or another 4+ weeks of grinding work just to get back to where I was.

This isn't really true, either.  Bat Country's 2nd top killer, Phildo, flies frigates and cruisers, and very effectively (I have sat in IAC's teamspeak server when people wondered who the Bat Country guy in the vexor 2nd top of the battleship kill is).  His killboard stats for the past few months are:

Damage done (ISK): 5,554.81M
Damage received (ISK): 195.8M

In other words, every ship he has lost in pvp since we moved to 0.0 five months ago adds up to about 3 hours a month of money-making, after insurance.  Or, for those who really don't want to pvp, half of what he'd get from a 60-day timecard.  And Samson gets salvage and sometimes loot from his kills.  And being in a corp helps, too, in that I gave Phildo cash for more ships: I had cash, and he had the time to pewpew.

Just to emphasise this, here is the top killer, Amarr:

Damage done (ISK): 6428.12M
Damage received (ISK): 283.2M

Amarr flies pricier ships, but not much more so.  A conservative thirty hours of PvE over the year he's been in Aegis Militia.

Point being that Eve only costs a lot if you want to fly prestige ships.  Phildo's Vexor is as deadly, flown well, as a lot of the pricier ships in the same gangs.

[bhodi]

And not to jump on the "It's not the game that sucks, it's just you" bandwagon, I personally had a problem with AM/Bat's role in the game; I suspect you didn't really get into it much either.

I disliked NRDS and the endless hours of waiting just to get a fight against people who won't engage unless you are vastly outclassed. I suspect this may have been the case for you as well. Being in GF (or another larger alliance) is much much different. It's not necessarily better, but it fits my playstyle a lot more. I'm still a member of BAT with my alt, and I may play it from time to time, but fleet fights, large scale combat, and clearly defined constantly changing objectives on a corp and alliance level are what I enjoy.

As for the ISK issue, making money either clicks for someone or it doesn't - I did missioning until I got up to a battleship, decided I hated that aspect of the game, got an additional datacore alt, then lived on the proceeds of those for a while. Honestly, though, my most expensive investments are my implants, as I generally fly the blackbird - a ship that costs 5m to replace including modules. Recently, I ran out of cash, but I was ready for that - I was training up a mining character in my spare time and sold him for 1.5b which should last me at least through the end of the year.

There are tons of things that I would improve in EvE, but I'm happy enough as it is. I got through the vertical learning curve and found a niche. I never got into PoTBS.

[kildorn]

Pretty much, you don't fly a faction ship into PVP unless you're out to brag or stupid. T2 sucks a bit more (yay shitty insurance) unless you're building them at home.

In general (from a last page post) the circle of life is still intact. A ship class above you will MAUL you, while two classes up will have issues hitting you. It's a little complicated by things like situational ammo for killing tiny ships and the fact that tiny ships need to play inside web range to kill a battleship, but whatever.

In general, pre T2, EvE had a circle of life that allowed frigates to sit around and beat up on battleships that lacked support.. or weren't droneboats. Post T2 there's a lot more problems with that, but now the circle seems to be primarily Cap/BS based, with small gang combat still being pretty normal. I still wish assault frigates didn't suck though, they're fun :(

[Surlyboi]

I'm as sci-fi as it gets and I still can't bring myself to play EVE. I'll play the shit out of EQ2 and AOC though....

You should play WoW: The Burning Crusade. I can has goat on spaec chip?   

I played WoW. For 20 minutes. Then I realized I'd been playing the same thing for the last six years when it was called EQ and promptly uninstalled the fucker.

[Draegan]

Offtopic but the way people are proud of hating WOW is an interesting mindset.

[Viin]

Offtopic but the way people are proud of hating WOW is an interesting mindset.

Same reason folks are proud to hate Microsoft or the iPhone or whatever. No one cares if someone roots for the guys that make billions, it's the underdog everyone likes to root for.

[Mrbloodworth]

You guys do recall how long it took Eve to crawl out of the hole....right?

[Surlyboi]

Offtopic but the way people are proud of hating WOW is an interesting mindset.

Same reason folks are proud to hate Microsoft or the iPhone or whatever. No one cares if someone roots for the guys that make billions, it's the underdog everyone likes to root for.

If disliking something I think is derivative and incredibly well done but still gives me a feeling of "been there, done that" is rooting for the underdog, then guilty... My dislike of MS on similar grounds notwithstanding. And I'm posting this from an iPhone ... 

That said, I really, really wanted to like EVE after hearing so many good things about it, but as someone else said earlier in the thread, it's not for the casual. It seems more seductive with the ability to gain skills while not even logged in, but everyone I know that's played it has sunk way too deep into the world of spreadsheets and soulgrinding number-crunching.

[Drugstore Space Cowboy]

Offtopic but the way people are proud of hating WOW is an interesting mindset.

Same reason folks are proud to hate Microsoft or the iPhone or whatever. No one cares if someone roots for the guys that make billions, it's the underdog everyone likes to root for.

I adore the iPhone purely as a machine, but it's too expensive, too fragile, and has a lot of features that could be trimmed. I love Linux (and not in a platonic way), like Windows, and Macs make me want to practice the disappearing pencil trick on the local Genius Bar staff. I despise WoW because it is poorly designed and yet has a wide appeal; I think misguided MMO developers will draw the wrong conclusions from its success and continue to make bad games in an attempt to cash in on it.

All of these are my opinions, not necessarily correct, but they represent a more valid mindset than "OMG I POSTED A LINKS TO ME WEBSITES." Popularity (by extension, "great revenue") IT'S RAINING RINKS is not evidence of good design.

[eldaec]

Offtopic but the way people are proud of hating WOW is an interesting mindset.

I also find it interesting the way people feel the need to point this out whenever someone states why they personally preferred game X to WoW.

[Merusk]

I find pie interesting. Fuck you cake-loving assholes.

[Drugstore Space Cowboy]

I find pie interesting. Fuck you cake-loving assholes.

No, pie is a greedy dessert giant with an unattractive front end. The cake's icing is nice, but inside it's porous and insubstantial. Soufflé is where it's at.

[Drugstore Space Cowboy]

[deleted]

[Slayerik]

* It has Empire space - this is key as it allows PvE AND pvp players to exist under the same ruleset.

I am curious why Empire space worked for EvE and Trammel failed to work for UO from PvPer's point of view. Risk vs. Reward was balanced in EVE and absent from UO?

Great question. I think a big difference is the worth of the space you are reduced to in Empire space. The NPC killing (ratting) pays like 5% of some of the 0.0 (free for all) space. You can mine in safety, but the profit/hr is way lower. So the PVPers in Eve joke that when a corp or alliance gets there ass kicked out of some of the better space, that they can go mine veldspar in Empire (veld being very cheap ore). There is also the option of mission running, which can be great money but nowhere as lucrative as the 0.0 space.

In UO, they split the worlds and gave no incentive to go to the free for all area. If they would have tripled the resources per hour, or had certain expensive gems or some shit drop in Feluccia dungeons that were needed to make GM armor, then you are approaching more what Eve does. Oh yeah, that would be if players controlled and actively fought over those dungeons. They are just way too different, even if they had similar qualities like 'sandbox' and item loot and near FFA PVP.

[WindupAtheist]

In UO, they split the worlds and gave no incentive to go to the free for all area. If they would have tripled the resources per hour, or had certain expensive gems or some shit drop in Feluccia dungeons that were needed to make GM armor, then you are approaching more what Eve does. Oh yeah, that would be if players controlled and actively fought over those dungeons. They are just way too different, even if they had similar qualities like 'sandbox' and item loot and near FFA PVP.

They did add double crafting resources to Felucca, and the scrolls needed to raise skills past 100 only dropped from bosses in Felucca dungeons.  Thing is, that stuff didn't come in until about a year after the facet split.  By then a lot of the PVP types had bailed, and after years of Raph fiddling while UO burned, we PVE types just wanted to kill monsters in peace without participating in any more kooky PVP social engineering crap.  So a handful of large zerg-gank guilds fought over the Felucca dungeons, and sold the skill scrolls to carebears rich with monster loot.

[Surlyboi]

I find pie interesting. Fuck you cake-loving assholes.

No, pie is a greedy dessert giant with an unattractive front end. The cake's icing is nice, but inside it's porous and insubstantial. Soufflé is where it's at.

The cake is a lie.

Souffle is too fragile.

Give me ice cream.

[Lantyssa]

I'll take glutten-free brownies.  Mmmmm.

[Surlyboi]

I like my glutens where they are, thankyouverymuch

[Count Nerfedalot]

I'll take glutten-free brownies.  Mmmmm.

Pamela's Ultra Chocolate Brownies?  I took some of those to work once and people stopped pitying me for being allergic to wheat.

[Lantyssa]

I haven't seen that brand.  Red Mill is what we have.  Those are some damn fine brownies though.

[Count Nerfedalot]

It's a mix.  Bake em yourself type.

[cmlancas]

See Eve's long history of cons, rip-off, protection rackets, suicide ganks, can-flips and etc...

I think this is truly the allure. It's like the wild west out there, spaceship style. True, hands-off, player-driven world with pvp content.

Oh, and there's stuff for PVErs to do -- so they can brag to their friends that they were there. (At least that's why I played!)

[Venkman]

The market want's the option of 'Massive', not the requirement.

How so? I mean, that makes very little sense without explanation.

Western players want the opportunity to interact with others, not the absolute requirement. This is proven by the market. The games that have forced you to do so have been niche. Meanwhile the games that merely compel you to try at some point to talk to someone else have been huge.

So developers have rightly shifted focus from making games that support hundreds of thousands of accounts on a single server in a massive socioeconomic sim of moving parts requiring someone with a PHd in Economics be on your staff to manage the whole thing.

Because right now there is exactly only one game that does that right now.

[taolurker]

There's a game that has someone with a PhD in Socio-economics!?!

[cevik]

There's a game that has someone with a PhD in Socio-economics!?!

Unfortunately "required" doesn't mean "actually staffed".

Explains a lot, eh?

[tazelbain]

IMO, Darniaq is talking about the Economist CCP hired for EvE.

[Count Nerfedalot]

Oh. Eve?  Darn.  I thought he was talking about TSO.