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Cyrrex
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Reply #70 on: August 20, 2008, 10:03:24 AM

I dunno.  If they were so in love with Machida they'd give him what he deserves.  A title shot.  I think he's probably earned it, but the big knock on him is that fans think he is boring.  Or at least they keep telling us that fans think he's boring.

And for the record, I think Machida style MMA is just as entertaining as Wanderlei style.

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Johny Cee
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Reply #71 on: August 20, 2008, 11:40:14 AM

BJ Penn's a completely different beast than Huerta. He's not an aggressive brawler either. I mean, Florian's tactics were for that Huerta fight specifically. Most of the time, he's a straight up kickboxer on his feet. He's also a bjj student like Penn.

Anyways, I understand your concern for entertainment, but that isn't MMA's priority. It's just supposed to be a test of martial arts skills. Always was. And technically, counter-attacking would be the basis of all of it. It's why martial arts even exist and are invented in the first place.

I disagree with your definition of skill.

Allow small joint manipulation then,  in which case the wrestlers/grapplers would rapidly cripple (literally cripple:  it was pretty common around the turn of the 19th century in pro wrestling, back when they were real bouts rather than scripted testosterone porn) most of the active athletes.

Every VIEWING sport has to make changes to make the sport entertaining for the fans.  It's just that the big three in the US (baseball, football, basketball) made those changes long enough ago the people forgot about them.

For instance:  The shot clock in basketball?  Really?  If one team is skilled enough to keep the ball away from the other team
for extended periods of time,  why do we discriminate against them in favor of team strategies based on scoring points?

By the same token, I don't think that the NBA should just turn basketball into dunking contests because "that's what the fans like".

You need to walk the line between rewarding different strategies of play while at the same time keeping the sport interesting.

Quote
Also, people always used to bitch about grapplers and shooters for not being entertaining too, but they ended up shaping the sport to what it's become.

I specifically mentioned the so called "lay and prayers" and the clinchers, as well.  Look at Sean Sherk:  that dude is an amazing wrestler, really showing how top control and position work.  He also comes close to the line of stalling/playing it safe, where he just sits on top of someone and does just enough to get the match stood back up.

Quote
[edit] More than likely, Penn would keep going for the takedown against a guy like Florian. It'd be the complete opposite as this situation. The time I've seen BJ meet a strong Muay Thai fighter, he tried to take it on the floor as quick as possible.

There's just no way I see Florian taking this fight. 

I think Penn has the advantage in the boxing,  and Florian will be too worried about takedowns to throw a leg out there, which cuts the reach advantage.  I mean,  Penn was demolishing GSP on the feet in their fight.

Florian has bjj,  but Penn has world class bjj.

Florian's best strategy is the same as Huerta:  stay on the outside,  backpeddle,  and throw the occasional strike. 

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Reply #72 on: August 20, 2008, 11:52:10 AM

Point about shotclocks is apt. I'll grant you that. That was a big reason that the Celts won eleven championships in a row back in the day -- Bob Cousy.

I understand that there is a need for entertainment, I just don't think it's the priority. What you said above about dunking though makes me think that we're probably on the same page here. Both of us just want to see a balance. I think I may be a little more tolerant of the Bob Cousy's of the MMA world though.


As for Florian and skill -- I want to give him credit because he knew nothing about wrestling before Huerta. Huerta is heavy greco/roman, and instead of relying on BJJ for his floor skills, Florian worked his ass off to study greco/roman wrestling instead (and counters). And it showed. Huerta couldn't grip him, and it was because Florian invested the time to learn how to counter him. That is skill and lots of training. A lot of fighters tend to rest on their strengths, but Kenny is a pretty versatile dude. He's got his strengths too, but he doesn't leave it at that.

As for avoiding him on his feet, well... he was just weighing his options and saw that he was outclassed in power there -- and Huerta had enough things in his bag to counter him in a straight up fight. So why walk into trouble? I mean, sure, it wasn't exciting, but I think what Florian did was smart in general. And I still don't think it was as passive as you guys make it out to be.

Sorry if the above is a little jumbled. I'm in a rush and very caffeinated.  smiley
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Reply #73 on: August 20, 2008, 12:09:43 PM

Point about shotclocks is apt. I'll grant you that. That was a big reason that the Celts won eleven championships in a row back in the day -- Bob Cousy.

I understand that there is a need for entertainment, I just don't think it's the priority. What you said above about dunking though makes me think that we're probably on the same page here. Both of us just want to see a balance. I think I may be a little more tolerant of the Bob Cousy's of the MMA world though.


I don't think we're that far apart, view wise.

I'm just more of a ground guy (have a bunch of former Div I and Div III wrestlers in the family, grew up watching amateur wrestling) so I appreciate it more.  I mostly enjoy Sherk for instance, despite being the "Muscle Blanket",  though guys like Jesse Taylor or Jake O'brien make even me want to put a pen through my eye. 

If you're more a boxing guy,  than you tend to have more patience for the boxing point wars.  I think the Hammill/Bisping fight is a great example of how,  depending on your prejudice,  you thought one or the other guy definitively won that.

Hammill essentially killed Bisping in round 1,  and then Bisping basically edged Hammill out in light on action point based boxing in round two and three.
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Reply #74 on: August 20, 2008, 12:35:12 PM

Yeah, I'm big on boxing. I think I said on the first page that footwork is one of things I see lacking in MMA (not that it exists, but it's not a big focus...clinching is). Especially the bigger the fighters get. Smaller fighters tend to be more fun to watch. To me, elusiveness is the crowning factor in the greatest fighters. It's what made Ali so good...and Bruce Lee's style so cool as well.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 12:36:43 PM by Stray »
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Reply #75 on: August 20, 2008, 02:41:07 PM

I agree with Stray, staple boxing foot work is nearly non existent in MMA. A deeper understanding of boxing theory would go a long way for many of these fighters. I did MMA for about 3 years off and on and that was one thing I always noticed when we sparred, many of these MMA types can't box to save their lives.

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Reply #76 on: August 20, 2008, 03:18:37 PM

Margalis
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Reply #77 on: August 20, 2008, 07:27:33 PM

I think they need to ditch control as a scoring factor and just do damage and aggression.

If you control someone but don't do any damage what are you accomplishing? And if you don't control someone but do damage what's the problem?

It seems like the logic is that if you control you are more likely to do damage, but why not just measure the damage directly? Taking someone down and keeping them down for a while should not in itself be worth anything unless the takedown itself is brutal.

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Hoax
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Reply #78 on: August 21, 2008, 02:02:12 AM

They need to change something about scoring.

Florian was fighting for points, not fighting to win.  The judges shouldn't give people like that wins unless they totally outclass the opponent.  What he was doing was just as weak as the rush takedown at the end of a round that does almost no damage but scores big points if everything I hear/read is to be believed.  That shit is bullshit.

That fight reminded me exactly of those the Mick Swick v Diego Sanchez fight.  Sanchez wins fights because he gets into fights and just finds ways to fuck up his opponents head and get all over them.  So Swick just wouldn't fight him, he danced away, landed jabs and frustrated and frustrated.  He just countered and countered and basically ran.  As the sport continues to mature if they dont do something we'll see more and more fights like that.  Fuck that noise.  Machida isn't my favorite fighter but he initiates contact then moves away, thats a huge difference from running once you've landed your handful of counters/jabs as the other guy comes in. 

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Margalis
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Reply #79 on: August 21, 2008, 02:34:20 AM

Koscheck / Diego?

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Reply #80 on: August 21, 2008, 09:36:36 PM

Koscheck / Diego?

That was where Swick got it from, which was Diego's first loss; the fight versus Swick was his second.  They were(are) both at AKA at the time and so Swick came in and it was like painfully obvious that all he was going for was the most pathetic score points win of all time.  Koscheck clearly just wanted a win, because he's a bitch and instead of fighting him went for winning a decision but while that fight was garbage, it was more down to Diego (similar to Huerta) only knowing how to fight a guy who was trying to fight him.

The Swick fight was terrible because Diego clearly knew he might face the same bullshit but he still couldn't do much to stop it.  If the guy wont fight you except to counter you as you close and he has a reach advantage...  Its not like boxing where you wade inside and start beating him up.  Tiny gloves, punches can do big damage, etc.

« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 10:59:12 PM by Hoax »

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WindupAtheist
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Reply #81 on: August 21, 2008, 10:29:56 PM

I want to see Kimbo fight someone with a pulse and get annhilated.

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Reply #82 on: August 21, 2008, 11:12:17 PM

I totally forgot that Swick and Diego fought.

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Reply #83 on: August 21, 2008, 11:27:57 PM

Diego's second loss was Fitch.  I don't believe that Diego and Swick have ever fought,  unless it was on a TUF.
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Reply #84 on: August 22, 2008, 12:02:54 AM

According to Sherdog's fight finder they haven't. I guess that's why I didn't remember it.

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Reply #85 on: August 22, 2008, 12:14:26 AM

I don't really know a whole lot about MMA, but I like watching guys fight and there's been fuck-all going on in boxing lately.  I like Pavlik at middleweight, but the heavies have been a total loss since Lennox Lewis retired.  There's some MMA hate among the really hardcore boxing fans, spurred on by some of the stuff coming out of the mouths of MMA promoters in recent years, but whatever.  I'll watch anything if it's a good fight.  Boxing, MMA, western kickboxing, Muay Thai out of Thailand when it turns up somewhere, whatever.

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Reply #86 on: August 22, 2008, 01:06:55 AM

According to Sherdog's fight finder they haven't. I guess that's why I didn't remember it.

If it was Fitch, my bad, but it was one of the pussiest fights I've ever seen.  I'm going to rewatch it right now (I have from ufc54 on somewhere on my HD...)

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Reply #87 on: August 22, 2008, 01:38:39 AM

I don't really know a whole lot about MMA, but I like watching guys fight and there's been fuck-all going on in boxing lately.  I like Pavlik at middleweight, but the heavies have been a total loss since Lennox Lewis retired.  There's some MMA hate among the really hardcore boxing fans, spurred on by some of the stuff coming out of the mouths of MMA promoters in recent years, but whatever.  I'll watch anything if it's a good fight.  Boxing, MMA, western kickboxing, Muay Thai out of Thailand when it turns up somewhere, whatever.

Klitschko's pretty cool if you ask me. For a second there, I thought he was hype (a few years back). He was building his rep up awhile back, and then got knocked THE FUCK OUT in the first round by some no name Southpaw from South Africa (who was mentored by Lennox himself)... But he's come back with a vengeance. He's beat just about everyone there is to beat in his division. His weakness was left handers, but he eventually overcame even Chris Byrd. His record is pretty damn amazing actually (54-3/51 KO's). Lewis in his prime would probably kick his ass (possibly even now), but I don't think there's anyone currently to do it.

[edit] Thai broadcasted Muay Thai is kinda funny to me. My mom gets it on satellite, so I catch it every so often. Really, it's just a bunch of 5 footers mercilessly beating the shit out of each other. I think actual Muay Thai is a completely different concept in Thailand. It's not for fighting so much as it is about who can take the most pain in the shins.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 01:47:52 AM by Stray »
kaid
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Reply #88 on: August 22, 2008, 11:24:57 AM

God real muy thai fights are just crazy to watch. I swear a lot of those lil guys can probably kick trees down and then kick them into pieces for making firewood for as much abuse as their shins can apparently take.
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Reply #89 on: August 22, 2008, 02:41:35 PM

In general, kickboxers are shitty fighters who would be competing in normal boxing for ten times the money if they were any good.  Those muay thai guys seem to be the exception, though.  There have been guys down in the very light weights who came in and won world titles boxing in their third or fourth fights because of all the experience they racked up in muay thai.  Only the real deal out of Thailand, though.  A muay thai fighter from anywhere else is like a Sumo wrestler from Argentina or an American-style football player from France.

Klitschko I'm just not sold on as a fighter.  Between the KO loss to Sanders, another KO loss about a year later to Lamon Brewster, and an early-career TKO loss to Ross Purrity, I just don't think he has the stamina or durability to go into the history books as anything more than the best of a poor lot.  I think a prime Lewis or Bowe would wreck him, and against something like a prime Foreman or Ali he'd be helpless.  I know Lewis had a couple of freak KO losses as well, but both were avenged and he has wins over pretty much every serious contender of his era (save Bowe, who ducked him) to show his true worth.

I loved Chris Byrd, but the guy was always a blown-up middleweight.  That's what made him fun, the whole David versus Goliath thing.  He survived and thrived on pure speed and reflexes, and by the age of 36 when Klitschko beat him, those reflexes were in decline.  It was a nice name for Klitschko to have on his record, but that's about it.

Anyway, I don't know much about MMA, but I saw that Anderson Silva fight where he caught that kick and punched the guy out as he held the leg, and I wanna see more of that guy.  He comes off as a guy who can really fight, not just a guy who was less bad than his opponent.

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Cyrrex
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Reply #90 on: August 22, 2008, 03:22:06 PM

Just google up some videos of Anderson Silva, and you'll see that the grab-leg-smash-brains move was pretty much par for the course.  He makes really good fighters look like fools. 

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Reply #91 on: August 22, 2008, 03:32:13 PM

Yeah, Anderson Silva is top notch. Also Wanderlei Silva is fun (no relation) - he's Muay-Thai + Jui-Jitsu. But most of his muay-thai comes down to clinching fuckers and kneeing them. It's more of a lead off to taking them to the ground, but he's fun to watch too. Machida is the Chris Byrd of MMA. Unorthodox lefty like Byrd too. Except he switches stances a lot (which, in turn, makes him even more unorthodox). Last, but not least, Fedor Emelianenko. That guy stomps everyone's ass in his class. And it goes without mentioning, since he's a heavyweight, he'd stomp anyone in a smaller class as well. As far as MMA trends/rules go, he's the best fighter in the world, if you ask me.
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Reply #92 on: August 22, 2008, 04:23:36 PM

...and by extension, you could make a case that he is the best fighter in the world, period (assuming no-holds-barred).

To the above list, I'd add BJ Penn and Georges St. Pierre.  Old school Quinton Jackson stuff is also amazing to watch.

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Reply #93 on: August 22, 2008, 05:08:33 PM

Hmm, well, it's hard to say. Anyone who can streetfight with speed and distance could change everything. Even a small guy. In a small ring, where clinching and getting on the floor is most of the name of the game, that's where Fedor reigns. So I won't say that Fedor is the best in the world per se.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 05:13:34 PM by Stray »
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Reply #94 on: August 22, 2008, 09:58:19 PM

Wait, are we talking about a hypothetical fight with no rules at all?  Because under those circumstances the "best fighter in the world" is some crazy guy we've never heard of who likes thumbing people's eyeballs out.  Anything short of that, fighting under some sort of sports rules, the best guy is presumably someone who competes in that sport.

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Reply #95 on: August 23, 2008, 08:06:56 AM

That's basically Bruce Lee then (when he was alive!). Or I mean, a true freeform martial artist. He encouraged ball crushing, eye gouging, and kicking in world with an unspoken rule that said "You don't kick". And most importantly, do as much of it as possible at once.

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Reply #96 on: August 23, 2008, 02:33:47 PM

In general, kickboxers are shitty fighters who would be competing in normal boxing for ten times the money if they were any good.  Those muay thai guys seem to be the exception, though.  There have been guys down in the very light weights who came in and won world titles boxing in their third or fourth fights because of all the experience they racked up in muay thai.  Only the real deal out of Thailand, though.  A muay thai fighter from anywhere else is like a Sumo wrestler from Argentina or an American-style football player from France.

Klitschko I'm just not sold on as a fighter.  Between the KO loss to Sanders, another KO loss about a year later to Lamon Brewster, and an early-career TKO loss to Ross Purrity, I just don't think he has the stamina or durability to go into the history books as anything more than the best of a poor lot.  I think a prime Lewis or Bowe would wreck him, and against something like a prime Foreman or Ali he'd be helpless.  I know Lewis had a couple of freak KO losses as well, but both were avenged and he has wins over pretty much every serious contender of his era (save Bowe, who ducked him) to show his true worth.

I loved Chris Byrd, but the guy was always a blown-up middleweight.  That's what made him fun, the whole David versus Goliath thing.  He survived and thrived on pure speed and reflexes, and by the age of 36 when Klitschko beat him, those reflexes were in decline.  It was a nice name for Klitschko to have on his record, but that's about it.

Anyway, I don't know much about MMA, but I saw that Anderson Silva fight where he caught that kick and punched the guy out as he held the leg, and I wanna see more of that guy.  He comes off as a guy who can really fight, not just a guy who was less bad than his opponent.

There's quite a few people who "can really fight" in MMA.  Most people forget:  up until the UFC took off,  there was a huge class of professional/Olympic quality athletes who had no professional organization to go to after graduation.  The wrestlers.  Amateur wrestling basically provides a huge talent pool for MMA to draw from.

Of present fighters:

- Anderson Silva (Middleweight or 185 lb champ in UFC) is pretty evil.  Pinpoint striking, great use of kicks, knees, and the clinch; good ground game.  Every one of his UFC fights has been interesting,  though I've only seen clips of his previous fights.

- BJ Penn (Lightweight or 155 lb champ in UFC).  Has heavy, heavy hands and good standup (he's demolished Sean Sherk and GSP on the feet).  He's a world class (Mundial champion) BJJ guy.  He's also got amazing flexibility, balance, and the use of his legs is.......  disturbing.  He's sprawled into full splits when an opponent tries for a single leg takedown, and the whole thing where he uses his legs from the back and traps an opponents arm is  ACK!.

He's a natural lightweight,  but is a former WW champ in the UFC. 

- GSP (Welterweight or 170 lb champ in UFC).  He's got decent standup (practiced some flavor of karate growing up,  which he has a black belt in), good wrestling,  amazing quickness and athleticism.  His takedowns are great.  He's pretty much cleared out the WW division in the UFC.

- Urjiah Faber (Featherweight or 145 lb champ in WEC).  Great athlete, amazing quickness.  Good standup, good wrestling, AMAZING cardio and quickness.  He's been clearing out people in the 145 lb class for a couple years.


Those guys all have pretty great fights.  The only thing I can really recommend is stay away from the Heavyweights.  Not particularly interesting, mostly.

Pretty much any LW bout with Tyson Griffin, Frankie Edgar, Gray Maynard, Huerta (outside of the Florian matchup), and Clay Guida are all pretty entertaining.

Of the other orgs now:

- Affliction seems to have a star-studded roster,  though it's questionable how long they'll be around with the combination of huge salaries (Tim Sylvia got $800,000 for the Fedor fight,  while Fedor got a purse of $300,000 and an undisclosed signing bonus of $1-2 million;  lots of other guys made 300,000-500,000) with poor to mediocre PPV buys (indep sources list it at 50,000 - 70,000,  the company says "well over 100,000")

- EliteXC/Proelite is the org running shows on Showtime and CBS.  They've been bleeding red ink for a couple years now, recently reorganized the corporate leadership,  have almost no decent fighters (Lawler, Ninja, Shields pretty much...  the big draw is Kimbo), and the last CBS show tanked.

Shields is a pretty good fighter,  probably top 10 in the stacked WW weight class but....  he's got no one to fight since UFC basically has a lock on most of the top or up and coming WWs.

Lawler was mediocre in the UFC at MW,  and had a tough time with Scott Smith (who, likewise, has been cut from the UFC a couple times)

- Strikeforce runs shows with and trades fighters with EliteXC.  Have a couple decent fighters.  Frank Shamrock and Cung Le, mostly.


My favorite match this year, if you can find it:

Miguel Torres vs. Yoshiro Maeda at 135 lbs.  Great fight that went all over.
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Reply #97 on: August 23, 2008, 02:45:00 PM

My perception might have something to do with the fact that most of the MMA I watch is on Showtime, and most of those guys are terrible.

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Reply #98 on: August 23, 2008, 02:47:37 PM

just google fighter's names... most matches are streaming somewhere on the net (and not many are longer than 10 minutes).. don't bother with youtube necessarily though, since the ufc tends to pull their fights off of there.
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Reply #99 on: August 23, 2008, 03:29:45 PM

My perception might have something to do with the fact that most of the MMA I watch is on Showtime, and most of those guys are terrible.

Understood.  EliteXC is....  pretty bad.  The "best" fight I've seen on EliteXC is probably either the Lawler/Ninja fight (even though Ninja looked like he had spent the last three months popping Oreos instead of training) or the Lawler/Smith I fight (which was disappointing, mostly because Smith was a C-class fighter in the UFC).

I've only seen portions of the Cung Le/Frank Shamrock fight (on Showtime some months ago),  but that looked pretty swank.  Le is a kickboxer and former San Shou champ (undefeated),  and basically goes in and throws a huge amount of kicks.  Ended up breaking Frank's arm in the third.

Le still looks like he would get eaten alive by a decent wrestler, though.  And Frank is..... close to washed up.

Nick Diaz has been Captain Mediocre on his run with EliteXC (a squeaker against Mike Aina?  REALLY?).

Shields is a talent.  But he has no one to fight.

__________________________________________________

Versus carries WEC, if you get that cable station.  WEC has a lot of "meh" fights,  and a couple of decent/great ones.  WEC is owned by Zuffa (parent company of UFC) and UFC basically treats it as a combination minor league and unmarketable weight classes (145 and 135 lbs.)

Spike shows a shit ton of UFC branded as the "Unleashed" program,  and also carries quite a few free televised events throughout the year.  Ultimate Fight Nights usually have a pile of lesser names.  Regular UFC shows in England/UK are usually broadcast free on Spike a little later, due to the time difference.

There is a noticeable difference in the production quality of UFC/WEC stuff compared to EliteXC.

I think a great card to watch, if its available, is UFC 84: Ill Will from earlier this year. 
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Reply #100 on: August 24, 2008, 01:00:47 AM

MMA guys are not good boxing guys. Part of that is because they have to be wary of takedowns and clinches, and part of that is because...welll...they suck at boxing. You won't see anyone in MMA who has the pure boxing skills of a real boxer but that misses the point. Even the best punchers in MMA have to have good spawls or takedown defense.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2008, 03:37:22 AM by Margalis »

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Reply #101 on: August 24, 2008, 03:11:37 AM

They don't need to have the alacrity of someone who's trained in nothing but punching for their entire life, but a lot of the guys I've seen basically punch like drunks in the street.  If more of them learned to get real leverage behind a punch more often, you'd see a lot more knockouts.

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Reply #102 on: August 24, 2008, 04:25:05 PM

They don't need to have the alacrity of someone who's trained in nothing but punching for their entire life, but a lot of the guys I've seen basically punch like drunks in the street.  If more of them learned to get real leverage behind a punch more often, you'd see a lot more knockouts.

I just laugh when boxing people say shit about how they wish there was real boxing in mma.  Boxing is the biggest joke of a "sport", sure the skill set should/could/might translate well?  I dunno, you've got that Italian and Marcus Davis, both of them had boxing careers to some degree.  There are others.  They've never looked amazing in the ring.  There are too many people in mma who can't punch.  This is true.  Either they don't use their weight or they slap or dont straighten/stiffen their arms/wrists at the right time w/e (I'm no expert but you can tell when the mechanics are way off) but this omg wish there were boxers in mma just has failed to bear out in reality so far.

OTOH, I've never seen a boxing match that I didn't find sickening or boring as fuck.  Sickening because watching someone fight 3+ rounds with only the reptile part of their brain still functioning is gross.  Hooray for big gloves and sport mechanics that result in it taking forfuckingever to finish the other guy, instead you have death by 100 cuts, to his brain.  The only sickening ufc fight I've seen was when Silva fucked up Franklin so bad his eyes rolled back like an animal's does when its absolutely terrified.  He's in the mt clinch and realizes he can't get out, and he's up near the cage.  It was the first fight.  That was disturbing, it was such a look of pure terror that the camera managed to catch perfectly.


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Reply #103 on: August 25, 2008, 08:01:16 PM

Quote
I dunno, you've got that Italian and Marcus Davis, both of them had boxing careers to some degree.  There are others.  They've never looked amazing in the ring.

Any boxer who'll take the pay cut MMA represents is probably terrible.  I like Jeremy Williams, but after being crushed by Sam Peter he was basically done as any sort of contender.

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Slayerik
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Reply #104 on: August 26, 2008, 10:52:01 PM

Quote
I dunno, you've got that Italian and Marcus Davis, both of them had boxing careers to some degree.  There are others.  They've never looked amazing in the ring.

Any boxer who'll take the pay cut MMA represents is probably terrible.  I like Jeremy Williams, but after being crushed by Sam Peter he was basically done as any sort of contender.

Nowadays, I think you overestimate what a boxer gets paid. Does anyone pay for/give a fuck about boxing anymore? Top tier guys might get paid, but so do their MMA counterparts (who seem to do ok with sponserships/TV shows, etc).

The boxer's biggest problem in an MMA fight is how easily good wrestlers can just put them on their ass and G and P them. Only the very best guys, such as Chuck Liddell, have the ability to spawl and force a fight to his feet. He isn't exactly a boxer, just a brutal counterpuncher. If you take the best boxer in the world, teach him how to really spawl and not instantly get wrecked in the BJJ game, then maybe you have a chance.

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