WAR RvR Video from E3.

[Lantyssa]

In FFXI you manage threat based on feel, which you develop by being smart and paying attention. Works for me.

It also requires getting past level 10.  Not really a good example since most people enjoy fun in their MMO...

[Bzalthek]

I don't really like the threat meters.  I'm not an RP whore, but there's a level of immersion I still yearn for in these games, and playing the UI mini-game isn't fun for me.  I don't like knowing that Monster_01 Hates Bob twice as much as Bill, but only 1/3 as much as Marshall.  If I cast Spell_02 it will make the mob hate me as much as Bob.

I much prefer the days of "I'll just slow this guy and then... oh shit, agro! get it off!"  I understand that's not "fun" to most folks anymore, and I'll probably never really see it in games again.  That's fine, I guess, but it strikes me as one more wall as the game boxes you in on your fun-path.  MMO's are becoming more and more structured, and it stops being a virtual world to explore and more like a hand-held tour.

[Koyasha]

And once again you all miss the point.

Nobody but you chucklefucks wants to do that.  No sane person who plays MMOs for FUN. (Yes, they're out there.) wants to do that.  Making things so simple is why WoW's got the number of folks it does. Since it's a business, yes that matters.

It always amuses me to watch folks who are skilled or talented at something berate others who lack that skill.. but then fail and whine about things they lack skill at. 

Catering to the stupid, the unskilled, and the lazy is always a great way to make lots of money, because most people are one or all of those things.  None of my comments are about what makes a more financially successful game, simply what makes a more fun and interesting game.  Reducing player decisions and input as much as possible don't make for a fun and interesting game, but they do make for one that requires very little from its players.

[tmp]

And once again you all miss the point.

Nobody but you chucklefucks wants to do that.  No sane person who plays MMOs for FUN. (Yes, they're out there.) wants to do that.

You might be missing the point yourself there  I don't personally consider the whole threat thing as great concept... my point is rather, if there's any proverbial FUN to that particular gameplay aspect, it's that whole uncertainty/decision making. So removal of it = no FUN left in the whole threat thing, all that's left is "press button as fast as you're told to". Now, if you'll tell me otherwise and that "everybody but chucklefucks" consider it FUN to have this uncertainty/decision making removed then i won't argue that... but it does make me curious what exactly is FUN in such arrangement, and i'd appreciate some light shed on it.

Making things so simple is why WoW's got the number of folks it does. Since it's a business, yes that matters.

I'd argue very few people actually know why WOW got the number of folks it does. I certainly can't claim i do. It really ain't as simple as making things so simple, otherwise their subscription base would be torn apart by a dozen equally 'simple' copycats at this point.

Not to mention, if the game is made in manner that forces people to utilize 3rd party UI add-ons just to stand the chance to beat an encounter (if what Fordel says is correct) ... that's hardly "making things so simple", ain't it?

[Fordel]

Not to mention, if the game is made in manner that forces people to utilize 3rd party UI add-ons just to stand the chance to beat an encounter (if what Fordel says is correct) ... that's hardly "making things so simple", ain't it?

Which is why its being put in baseline...


and we have come full circle again 


What the hell was this thread about originally anyways?

[Venkman]

I'd argue very few people actually know why WOW got the number of folks it does.

I do I do!  j/k. But every factor that could have contributed has been discussed to death. Simplicity of experience alongside that experience actually, like, working at launch were definitely big factors.

Not that the game doesn't absolutely require 3rd party UI add-ons unless you get to a level of play that would have you as a type of person who'd seek out UI add-ons to maximize their experience. Yea there's that guy who bought a T6 level 70 off eBay who'll complain they're not able to keep up on the BT raid they managed to lie their way into. But they're as statistically irrelevant as the "casual PUG Raider" demographic.

As to Threat, it's not that the lack of threat meters makes something risky and fun to figure out. It's that the lack of display of the statistics rolling along in the background make it a foregone conclusion that a UI mod would be developed for it. That makes encounters easier, which forces Blizzard (and others) to narrow the gap between success and failure, which makes that mod now a requirement, which in turn makes Blizzard roll it into their default UI. Player vs developer escalation.

One of the things players will claim is un-fun is the total reliance on statistics at all. But that only bothers people when they're getting bored with the game anyway. Prior to that they were just fine with it.

[tmp]

Which is why its being put in baseline...

and we have come full circle again 

Except we are not where we began -- the original gameplay (which involved estimation "how much can i dps?") has been removed and replaced with explicit "you can dps all way to here but no farther". Again, can someone explain the fun factor of this approach? (to remind, the "you can now require players to juggle the aggro" aspect of it is not new by any means)  

[Koyasha]

Off the top of my head. http://www.wowwiki.com/Gurtogg_Bloodboil would be nigh unworkable without threat meters.

Well, having read that thoroughly I don't really see anything unusual or unique there.  He has two deagro mechanisms, one that permanently reduces a target's threat and one that temporarily removes a target from the threat list.  And there need to be regular tank switches.  Deagro mobs of either type are not unique to WoW, tank switching isn't unusual nor does it require threat meters.  The fight would be considerably more difficult without them, but every mechanic described in that article about him is learnable without having to watch bars.

Threat meters are being put into the base UI for understandable reasons: most people cannot or will not learn to manage threat without them, and breaking them would be both difficult and create a tremendous amount of angry customers since people have gotten used to them and most are unable or unwilling to raid without them.  It makes the most business sense to do this, but it doesn't make the game more fun.  They might have been able to break them had they acted quickly upon the initial appearance of such tools, but they let them sit for too long.

[tmp]

As to Threat, it's not that the lack of threat meters makes something risky and fun to figure out. It's that the lack of display of the statistics rolling along in the background make it a foregone conclusion that a UI mod would be developed for it.

This is interesting; i wonder if there was built-in display of one's approximate threat level (say, as the character moves on the aggro list upwards, they gain increasingly bright red aura or something) ... would that be deemed 'good enough' of an indicator, or would people still insist they need to know these things exactly.

(ok so it's MMOs we talk about and their specific brand of players, so it's mostly rhetorical question... but still)

[Margalis]

I don't think visible threat meters is what WOW popular.

[justdave]

I find the derision of things (that you are not forced to install) that supposedly remove the challenge from the game, but that enable new crops of people to play said game without dedicating the required hours to develop 'The Juju'...Curious.

And by curious, I mean fucking retarded.

I mean, really, If you want more challenge, don't install the mod. If you wish to game with a group of people that hold up as a golden example a complete internalization of game mechanics, do it. Bemoaning the fact that there are people whose playtime is enabled because of these things is...I would call it retarded. but I don't think english lets me string together enough Rs for the amount of tardedness. :P

[Koyasha]

Here's the thing.  Threat meters, along with other similar addons that take any of the guesswork and learning out of fighting, are like if someone who wasn't too good at a fighting game (like me, for example) wanted an option where, every time the enemy does a move, a button flashes on the screen showing what to press to counter the enemy's attack.  Who needs to learn attacks, counters, patterns, anticipate the enemy's moves, guess what the right time to launch an attack or prepare for a counter might be?  Just hit the button when it flashes!

That's pretty much where WoW is with all the addons used in raiding.  Look at BigWigs/Deadly Boss Mods or whatever, that flashes warnings on your screen.  Threat meters that flash a warning when you approach the tank's threat.  Etc.  Big flashing button that says "DO THIS", basically.  Raiding hasn't quite gotten there yet, but it's sure heading that way.  Where for every fight you have an addon flashing in your face telling you exactly what to do and when to do it.  Sure, at first nobody has that info, but how many of the people doing it are actually going in without the knowledge?  Think about this: out of ten million players, it's likely less than a thousand that's come up with the strategies for every recent boss mob in the game, after which they're posted on the internet, addons are made to include the key points of the fight, and so on, eliminating as much decisionmaking as is currently possible with the tools we have available to us.

Addons are great.  For customizing your UI, for adding convenience and removing tedium.  But, y'know...I didn't realize we considered the decisions we used to have to make during fights to be part of that tedium.

[tmp]

I find the derision of things (that you are not forced to install) that supposedly remove the challenge from the game, but that enable new crops of people to play said game without dedicating the required hours to develop 'The Juju'...Curious.

Taking this notion "it does not matter if gameplay is greatly simplified, as long as it allows more people to enjoy the game" to logical conclusion... picture yourself a game mod that #1 instantly sets the level of character to cap #2 permanently turns off damage dealt to the player #3 kills any targetted NPC with press of single button.

Quite clearly simplification like this would greatly increase number of people able to play the said game... but do you still find it... curious... that some people might raise an eyebrow and ask what exactly is there left from the original design after such modification is applied, that still allows to call the whole experience the "game", and where's the fun in dumbing things down that much?

And if you consider asking questions aimed to understand someone else's apparently different mentality where it comes to these things "retarded" ... welp. it's certainly easier approach than say, providing an actual answer.

[justdave]

See, there's the argument: If you don't wish to have your gameplay pushed to that 'logical conclusion' (which is a strawman, and not logical at all), DON"T INSTALL THE FUCKING MOD. This isn't a fundamental change to the game engine, this is a something that individual players can apply to affect their grasp of the things that flow out of their combat log.

As for your second 'point'...The original 'design' of MMOs is to get the maximum number of subscribers, and retain them as long as possible. That's it. Period. I'm thinking inside that boundary, in terms of 'What's going to attract the people that I care to play a game with, and keep them around?'

And the third point...I'm not sure where that vagina sand comes from; I'm pretty sure I wasn't responding to you directly.

EDIT: Inserted a necessary 'to'. And snuck in a fucking.

[Lantyssa]

Guys, I think you're missing the point.

For normal play, threat meters aren't needed.  More people are moving into raiding as that's all that has been left and kind of what people expect these days.  Threat meters don't have to be fun, because we're talking about a mechanic to benefit RAIDING.

Thank you, that is all.

[Margalis]

Goomba at optimal range, press A now!

[mutantmagnet]

The star is hidden in the middle block. After grabbing it keep on running left until you reach the stairs. Don't jump until you see the second turtle climb down.

[tmp]

See, there's the argument: If you don't wish to have your gameplay pushed to that 'logical conclusion' (which is a strawman, and not logical at all), DON"T INSTALL THE FUCKING MOD.

See, that's the point you're missing -- the discussion is focused on changes to gameplay that are result of having the "fucking mod" installed. Not about "my" gameplay. So your brilliant advice is absolutely irrelevant.

As for your second 'point'...The original 'design' of MMOs is to get the maximum number of subscribers, and retain them as long as possible. That's it. Period. I'm thinking inside that boundary, in terms of 'What's going to attract the people that I care to play a game with, and keep them around?'

Very well. So, you reckon a game of Skinner Says has bigger pull as far as subscribers are concerned? Let's say that's true, and people do find it more fun to follow explicit instructions to predictable results, rather than take risk of making their own decisions. But then why exactly this kind of gameplay (farming bosses for the loot using known strategies, killing mobs that don't pose any risk and just take time etc) ... is at the same time claimed to be boring as fuck, not in the least precisely because nothing ever happens?

And the third point...I'm not sure where that vagina sand comes from; I'm pretty sure I wasn't responding to you directly.

Dude, it's not me who is flying off handle calling people retards and STRESSING THE POINTS WITH CAPS. You want to talk sand there, check your own piping first.

[justdave]

...the discussion is focused on changes to gameplay that are result...

No. I just went back and checked; this duscussion has never been about that. This started with someone saying that WoW mods were a good feature and grunk popping out with 'RAWR PUSSY' (pausing for a moment, you basically agree with grunk. Think about this for a second) and the discussion since has been about threat management...Or on a larger, implied scale, mods that help people play the game. I mean, no one's even brought up something that validly makes the point you think you're making, like Decursive. Which DID start to unbalance fights, so they broke it. Done deal. Fixed.

Instead - Threat management? What? THIS you pick?
Every boss fight is one, big, scripted event. That's why practice helps. The things that are random and need to be responded to dynamically in any of those fights will be there whether you're using a threat mod (or a macro, or whatever) or whether you're doing some mental threat-fu. Claiming that one is better than the other in some kind of 'gamist absolutisim' is ridiculous.

You want to talk sand there, check your own piping first.

Well, maybe I am a little sandy, but it makes me irate because this discussion has been done to death, and the people arguing against it are the people that it benefits most. You can just...Not use it. It fills the gap for people who need it, WITHOUT forcing them to alter the game for everyone. The notion that 'Naw, they need to leave that shit out, then people will cowboy up and play it the RIGHT way!', yeah...That discussion has been had. Starts with a V. This attitude pisses me off because the people that bring it to the table, in one fell swoop not only fail to realize that it's to their benefit that the mechanism exists, but at the same time impugn people who find the damn thing useful as idiots, who suck and can't play the game (again...stateroom on the grunkboat).

Actually, Lan, I see your point, but it's not just about raiding. I play in a guild specifically for older people, with kids and lives and whatnot, a lot of who are first-time MMOers, who don't get enough playtime to internalize some of these mechanisms, and similar. Or they're just timid and would rather not tank because they might waste people's time, or any of a host of reasons. Mods like this go a long way in getting people past that, sometimes even to the point that they don't need said mod anymore.

Bah, but those people should just uninstall the game right now, lest they screw things up for the 'real' players...because fuck 'em, that's why! Right, tmp?

EDIT: Spel

EDIT: Oh, and just for some validity and re-railage, I agree that a moddable UI is a good feature, as it allows them to add new features based on actual popularity, rather then in a vacuum or listening to - god forbid - forum request volume. 

[Venkman]

This is interesting; i wonder if there was built-in display of one's approximate threat level (say, as the character moves on the aggro list upwards, they gain increasingly bright red aura or something) ... would that be deemed 'good enough' of an indicator, or would people still insist they need to know these things exactly.

I think if you had a graphical meter, that would be great. I would rather have some type of character rendering in the game world instead of relying on numbers. But then, if we went all the way to the true source of what I want, it's a game that doesn't require the numbers at all because they created more interesting experiences than just whack-a-mole with X players of Y class disposition during Z period of time.

Threat meters, along with other similar addons that take any of the guesswork and learning out of fighting

Except getting 25-75 of your closest friends together to "learn" an encounter over dozens of days resulting in hundreds of people-hours is a big pain in the ass The fact is that these meters can exist because the underlying system is statistical. Hence the escalation between player and dev I mentioned earlier. To get out of this trap requires a completely new type of experience. Like, say, other genres

Moddable UIs allow for the reduction of guesswork by a chunk of players who know well enough that these are scripted encounters but are too arsed to spend the time figuring it out.

[Goreschach]

Well, maybe I am a little sandy, but it makes me irate because this discussion has been done to death, and the people arguing against it are the people that it benefits most. You can just...Not use it.

Hey, I have an idea, cockass. If you've heard this discussion before and it makes you irate you can just... not read it.

[justdave]

Well, maybe I am a little sandy, but it makes me irate because this discussion has been done to death, and the people arguing against it are the people that it benefits most. You can just...Not use it.

Hey, I have an idea, cockass. If you've heard this discussion before and it makes you irate you can just... not read it.

[Margalis]

Except getting 25-75 of your closest friends together to "learn" an encounter over dozens of days resulting in hundreds of people-hours is a big pain in the ass The fact is that these meters can exist because the underlying system is statistical.

Once again the real complaint here is poor design. The encounters are too hard and not fun, therefore we need a bunch of UI mods. That's a design problem and more meters are a work around.

[justdave]

Well, that's kind of the elephant in the room, isn't it? :) The mods that are being discussed are spackle for WoWDIKUfail, admittedly, but the principle holds. No matter how good your design team is, if you have anything except a niche, homogenous playerbase you're going to have a spread of player 'skill', regardless of what skill means. Either you let players adjust the game - Which is very hard to do right - Or you let players adjust their experience of the game. Which is why I'd argue for the equivalent of what the WoW moddable UI does.

[Lakov_Sanite]

if EQ had allowed mods, there would be threat meters in EQ 6 years ago, threat management may take skill but it's NOT fun.

I can juggle a ton of groceries in my arm and open my front door, it's a skill and not everyone can do it but I'd still like a bag. Just because something is a skill doesn't mean it's necessary. often times it's useless and unecessary.

[Draegan]

I  mods.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Yes well there's always someone out there who takes things too far.

[Nonentity]

Is it wrong that I can recognize 85-90% of the mods from that screenshot?

[Engels]

 If you find that you can no longer even see the landscape, all you're doing is monitoring names and ciphers, then you're ready for EVE.

[Nonentity]

ag_unitframes
BigWigs
ArcHud
Elkano's Buffbars
PallyPower
that dumb ace-based necrosis knockoff
Prat
Bartender3
KLHThreatMeter
XRaidStatus
Grid
Scrolling Combat Text
FuBar
Quartz
that ace-based timerbar mod that is not Antagonist
A lot of fubar mods (durability, cash, latency, clock)

What do I win?

[Lantyssa]

An intervention.

[Nonentity]

hur hur hur

I don't raid anymore, but I'm a whore for tinkering with shiny UI mods. I play more DotA then I play WoW.

[slog]

When I stopped playing Wow, I was running about 80 mods. 

[Ingmar]

What I'm getting here is that there are people who would rather fight against the limited interface than the monsters.

I mean, I could try to play without using my mouse too, would that bring me closer to the true spirit of gaming?

[Nebu]

What I'm getting here is that there are people who would rather fight against the limited interface than the monsters.

I think the counterpoint is that you're not "fighting" the monsters.  Rather, you're managing your interface and using mods to make this management process more efficient.  It's a problem with the game moreso than with the user.