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Author Topic: Flagship Sunk?  (Read 68118 times)
Soln
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the opportunity for evil is just delicious


Reply #105 on: July 14, 2008, 08:38:08 PM

good times. 
Kageru
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Reply #106 on: July 15, 2008, 02:47:15 AM

I also agree with Merusk; software engineering is not particularly different from architectural, mechanical, or any other engineering; there is some art to it, but most of it is a matter of copying customer requirements into a different language, whether that language is C++, AutoCAD, or whatever, in order to produce a building, object, or program that works the way the customer wants.

The degree of re-use in those other engineering domains is much higher I would think. Maybe that is due to the immaturity of the domain, but I think the argument can be made that software being infinitely flexible, highly integrated and resistant to real world constraints (where bad construction conveniently reveals itself by breaking) may be inherently harder to standardize. Of course software itself varies, a lot of business programming has strong inherent repetition which has allowed a high degree of automation / re-use.

One of my professors (now deceased) said there was a project to find out why software projects failed so often. The finding was that as soon as engineering ventured into "innovative" territory all the engineering disciplines tended to have a substantial project failure rate. So the observation that this projects flaw was demanding too many new systems within a single project is probably a good root cause.

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Jeff Kelly
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Reply #107 on: July 15, 2008, 04:03:55 AM

Given the amount of software that is released late (or never released at all), overbudget, and buggy I would say your expectations are too high, and I'm not even talking about MMO development specifically.

Well I don't think that my expectations are high rather that most companies are just lowballing. Your first sentence sums it up rather nicely. People today expect Software to be "released late (or never released at all), overbudget, and buggy" that and that "you cannot plan software development" is common knowledge now, it is so ingrained into the public consciousness that most people don't even question the meme any longer.

But if software development is this unpredictable beast, then why do some companies manage to deliver consistently while others fail time and again?

Quote
Despite the fact that many programmers wear the title "Software Engineer" programming is really not like engineering in the more traditional disciplines -- it's much more a mixture of art, craft, and engineering. When companies like Microsoft struggle with it mightily (e.g. Vista) you know it's not a simple problem to solve. In fact it might never be solvable with the current methodology for writing programs.

I disagree. Software development is very much like classical engineering in that it combines "a mixture of art, craft, and engineering". The only difference is that most other engineering professions are a lot older and therefore more settled and there is more experience going around but you won't last long in any other engineering profession of you lack craftsman- or artisanship. That is the beauty of these professions in my opinion.

Quote
You can always say that it's "bad management" that caused a project to fail or do poorly but that's really just an easy way of assigning the blame -- it's like saying it's the CEO's fault if a company's doing badly.

I do not want to assign blame but in my experience it is more often than not mistakes made in project management that let projects fail. Well let's not call them mistakes. Most people think that project management involves managing people and timelines and budget, everything that needs to be done AFTER the project has already started.

The hardest and most time consuming and most important part of the project is however already over by then. It is also the one most often neglected by management.

When you start a project, you as a project manager are entrusted with the money, the resources and the staff to do the project. But before you can start you have to clear up a few things.

What exactly is the purpose of the project, what product do we have to make? Many projects already fail at that point because that question never got cleared up.
Can we do it given the budget and time that we have, how much money and time do we need? Many more projects fail there.
If not what can we do instead? Many projects don't even get to that point

If you cannot answer any of the above questions you shouldn't even start. In good corporate cultures project managers can and are encouraged to refuse projects if they think that a project cannot be done.

Question Number 1 is the hardest part of any project be it software development or anything else. If you cannot answer that one, you won't be able to answer all of the other questions, you will also not be able to do any meaningful budget, time and staff planning. You won't know what you really need to finish the project and you risk making a product that the customer doesn't want (I use the term customer loosely, The customer is always the one who wants to buy or use your product be it a gamer or your boss)

The problem is that you are usually pushing the envelope, so you don't exactly know what it is you should be developing and how and your customer doesn't either. This is why everybody thinks software development is hard and unplannable because most projects ignore that part entirely. Consequently they do not know what it really is that they should be doing, how long it might take or how much money it will take. They also do not know what the highest risks for project failure are and what contingency plans are needed.

The whole requirements engineering profession was founded because of that. In big projects that alone can take more than a year, bear in mind that no coding has been done by then.

This phase of the project is also the phase in which most of the information about the product is gathered, researched, cleared up, exchanged and disseminated so ideally all of the people that are part of the project team should be involved or at least being kept in the pipeline. Getting somebody up to date after this process is finished is nigh to impossible because only a small part of that info gets written down.

Unfortunately in most projects that part of the project is done by senior management and sales so a huge amount of info is lost by the time the project work starts. Also since the people actually working on the project are not involved, the coarse timelines are usually planned by people that have no development experience. Or even worse ones that have but haven't done any development for the last 15 years. ("I once did program X in 1 month 15 years ago, so how hard can it be?)

Then there is the pressure of funding a project. The sentence I most often hear by managers is "If we tell our customer the real cost and time of development they won't do the project". So a lot of budget and timeline makeup is done in order to sell a project to an unwitting customer. So you end up with a project plan that looks good and sells well but is no longer connected with reality. By the time the customer realizes that he is already too committed to the success of the project and will be hopefully too afraid to cancel it.

This leads to really absurd situations like one I was involved in in one of my last jobs. Boss asks us how long we think a certain development might take so we tell him that according to the amount of work we needed to be doing and the other projects that had to be worked on, it would take us about a year. As an answer we got "Well that's nice but I already told our customer that we will be finished in 6 months".

All of that might sound tedious and unnecessary but as the one responsible for the project I need all of that information in order to represent the project correctly. I can then tell if there is a significant chance of doing it with the time and budget available, if not what can or should be dropped to do it. I have identified the biggest project risks and maybe even made contingency plans if any of that happens and the customer knows it and can then make an informed decision.

So in essence at least in my experience most projects fail because the question "Can we do it or what can we do instead?" is ignored or not even seen as important. It is also often done by people that don't really like management they just got promoted there

In this phase of the project there is the most potential for screwing up badly.

This is not only to blame on management however. Most engineers I know don't see that bit as important. Meetings with customers, design and planning meetings and requirements are often seen as "getting in the way of 'real' work". Since many of the middle management positions are recruited from engineering you get a lot of middle managers that think project management is unnecessary, gets in the way of work and only takes up valuable development time. It most often isn't even calculated into the project as expenses.

Many of the managers promoted by way of the peter principle don't even much like the management part and usually want to be part of the development team instead in some sort of important function. This usually delays the project even further because everybody keeps on waiting for them to free some time in their busy schedule.

Quote
The actual reasons are much more complicated than that. Software is particularly hard and not like other engineering fields because of, among other reasons, the incredibly difficultly estimating the amount of time it takes to do certain tasks, the fact that it's as much a creative process and an engineering one (as mentioned above) and the fact that you can't just throw more bodies at a problem (aka the "mythical man month") like you can in some other engineering fields.

This is not different from other engineering projects. After a certain amount of project time has passed there is no point in adding more people. If you are doing something nontrivial it will take six months to a year just to get the new people up to speed. Also estimating the time a task takes is hard for other professions as well. How do you plan something that you have never done before?

Well it was never my intention to argue that it is hard, it is. I just don't like it as an excuse for failure or to construct some sort of "software development is inherently harder than other professions" mythology.

Quote
When you go back and look at failed projects you can usually figure out what went wrong. Unfortunately with software, as history has proven time and time again, that does not mean your next project is going to turn out any better. You can put as much top notch management and processes in place (like at Microsoft)

You cannot expect success from the same people that have a history of failure. All of your processes don't help if you have still the same people managing the projects. Microsoft by the way is in my book a prime example of a company that refuses to deal with question number one. Vista is a prime example of that.

They have screwed up every big software project in the last 15 years. No OS launch went smoothly or on schedule. They couldn't even launch xp before scrapping most of what would have made it special (new shell, next generation file system, palladium etc.) and most products don't even work until the first or second service pack. All the while they get beaten by Apple and Google and other companies as far as time budget, features and amount of bugs is concerned.

Why should the next project suddenly work any better? The same people are involved, the same mistakes will be made if nobody is there to correct them. Then if it fails it will be shrugged off as "Well software development is hard and unpredictable" and the next project is run into the ground. In the case of Microsoft they just don't bother, they have enough money to burn and a quasi monopoly on OS and office software, they can afford to blow billions on a project like X-Box or Zune or Windows mobile. In other cases it was just somebody else's money that is now gone. But even that has no real consequence in game development you can screw up a few projects and still get hired or funded to work on the next pipe dream.

Public blowups like in the case of Sigil show that many more software projects keep lacking.

Quote
but unless everybody is coding to a strict and detailed spec where there's basically no opportunity to make choices (i.e. you are just a glorified typist that understands how to write in a foreign language) you are still dealing with an inherently hard to predict and creative process and even at well managed companies problem may arise that are difficult if not impossible to recover from especially if there are hard deadlines in place.

If you get at a point where there is no way forward just cancel the damn project. This is done all the time in traditional engineering. In normal companies that rely heavily on research and development 90% of all projects don't get finished, the remaining 10% have to be enough to sustain it that is what comes with pushing the envelope. In really successful companies this can rise up to 20% or more. Why do game developments have to drag on endlessly until money runs out?

Quote
Getting back to game development it's no coincidence that game companies that have a lot of experience and release games on their own schedule generally turn out better games than companies that are forced to release games on a particular schedule, even if they are well-managed. When you are forced to start chopping out parts of the game to met the deadline that always has a ripple effect on other parts of the code/game and things usually end up being out-of-kilter because of it. These large-scale MMOs that we've been talking about here tend to have more "moving parts" than your typical single-player game which just exacerbates the problem.

Every company releases games on their own schedule. They did the schedule or at least accepted the deadline, they planned what had to get into the game or at least accepted the demands of the contractor, they knew how much money they had at their disposal. In case of Blizzard or other independent companies it was their own money and time so they had more freedom than companies that have to rely on external funding but it is not that other software companies don't have a choice either. They can simply refuse to develop something that they are not confident in making when the next publisher dreams about the big "WoW-Killer" for pong money. Blizzard had 30 million and 5 years for WoW, Rockstar blew 100 million on GTA IV. If you cannot muster up that amount of time and money you shouldn't plan on doing The second coming of WoW. It doesn't help either that most development studios suffer from reinventing the wheel and not invented here syndrome.

What you describe as force is often just the contractor who ran out of patience after two years and a few million dollars over schedule.
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Reply #108 on: July 15, 2008, 04:13:04 AM

One of my professors (now deceased) said there was a project to find out why software projects failed so often. The finding was that as soon as engineering ventured into "innovative" territory all the engineering disciplines tended to have a substantial project failure rate. So the observation that this projects flaw was demanding too many new systems within a single project is probably a good root cause.


I said this above.  It also is the underlying thought behind Sanya's blog. Why are you reinventing the wheel Every. Single. Project.  Did some new technology occur that makes your chat system better/ different than every other chat system and IRC client on the planet?  Is there some fantastic interface dongle that mandates some sort of rewrite? No? Then why the fuck are you rewriting it?  The same question applies to every system that devs feel a need to rewrite from scratch, every time.

 I understand the need to extensivly tweak or re-write game engines, or net code, or anything else.  Sometimes the exsisting stuff just doesn't do what you need.  But you need to start with the exsisting and THEN determine if it does or doesn't work, not just scrap it from the start and keep making the same mistakes over and over.

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tmp
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Reply #109 on: July 15, 2008, 06:44:53 AM

http://www.thenoobcomic.com/index.php?pos=314

seemed apt, on more than one level.
Signe
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Reply #110 on: July 15, 2008, 07:42:08 AM

This thread has fallen into a pit of uninteresting crap!   

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Reply #111 on: July 15, 2008, 08:26:04 AM

Quote
You can always say that it's "bad management" that caused a project to fail or do poorly but that's really just an easy way of assigning the blame -- it's like saying it's the CEO's fault if a company's doing badly.

success has many fathers, failure is an orphan
sam, an eggplant
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Reply #112 on: July 15, 2008, 08:34:56 AM

Jeff Kelly = SirBruce

?
Montague
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Reply #113 on: July 15, 2008, 09:40:28 AM

Jeff Kelly = SirBruce

?

Given how fricking long that novel was, I didnt have enough mental RAM to remember whatever the hell Trippy had said that he was responding to, so I'm willing to cut him some slack on that one.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

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Reply #114 on: July 15, 2008, 06:07:20 PM

Summary of Jeff Kelly's post: if more time was spent better (and realistically) planning a project and if said project didn't require cutting edge development and re-inventing the wheel every time, MMO development would probably be a lot more successful.

Signe
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Reply #115 on: July 15, 2008, 07:39:53 PM

From some Tiggs post somewhere - Mythos or HGL, I forget:

Quote
Flagship Studios Still in Operations

San Francisco, CA (July 14, 2008) -- Flagship Studios has announced today that despite rumors to the contrary, the company is still operating.
“It is with deep regret that I must announce that Flagship Studios has laid off most employees. However, the core management and founding team members are still at Flagship.” said Bill Roper, CEO of Flagship Studios. “The past five years have been an incredible experience for us, but unfortunately, we couldn’t sustain the size of the company any longer.”

Flagship Studios owns the rights to all its technology and IP, including Hellgate: London and Mythos. Due to the current situation, Flagship will not be taking any new subscribers for Hellgate: London, and all current subscriptions will not be billed.

Flagship wishes to extend their heartfelt thanks to those that have supported the company and games over the past five years.



About Flagship Studios
Flagship Studios is a creator of innovative entertainment software, designing games that focused on ease of play, replayability, and fun. The studio was formed in 2003 by former executives and developers from Blizzard North® and represents the creators of the worldwide, best-selling Diablo® franchise. With members that are renowned within the gaming industry, Flagship Studios and its Flagship Seattle division embodies a team that has worked together for over a decade and have numerous #1-selling games and multiple Game of the Year awards to their credit.

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dusematic
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Reply #116 on: July 15, 2008, 07:44:02 PM

Damn, she beat me to it.  Maybe they're working on a Tetris port? 
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Reply #117 on: July 15, 2008, 10:45:22 PM


Quote
Flagship Studios Still in Operations

San Francisco, CA (July 14, 2008) -- Flagship Studios has announced today that despite rumors to the contrary, the company is still operating.
“It is with deep regret that I must announce that (...) the core management and founding team members are still at Flagship.” said Bill Roper, CEO of Flagship Studios.

fixed it
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Reply #118 on: July 16, 2008, 12:45:49 AM

So it's less Flagship sunk and all hands lost, more Flagship having gone underwater but the people still trapped inside have some air left?

Jeff Kelly
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Reply #119 on: July 16, 2008, 01:15:02 AM

Sorry for that wall of text there. I got a bit carried away there.
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Reply #120 on: July 16, 2008, 01:43:52 AM

So it's less Flagship sunk and all hands lost, more Flagship having gone underwater but the people still trapped inside have some air left?
+ two of them are magical fish-people

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Typhon
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Reply #121 on: July 16, 2008, 01:54:59 AM

[...]Why are you reinventing the wheel Every. Single. Project.[...]

Most of the MMO development firms are doing it for the first time, there is no pre-existing codebase that they can leverage.  Other then the graphics engine itself, my guess is that writing your own is veiwed as either being more cost effective then licensing someone elses.

If we're talking about design... well, we're talking about designers.  What designer could ever be talked in to, UPFRONT, agreeing that a chat, looking for group, or other bread-and-butter element done in another project was "good enough"?

Whenever someone says to someone else, "stop being human! stop having an ego!", I kind of just think, "yeah, and you're writing this article why?"
Tige
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Reply #122 on: July 16, 2008, 06:34:46 AM

Mythos follows HG:L.  Shades of optimism or denial, time will tell I suppose.


From Travis Baldree via hellgateguru.com.

Quote
Well, it’s an interesting few days here for all of us. It’s just been killing me not to post until now, but I really needed to wait until some things were settled and announced. As you may or may not know Flagship Studios laid off almost all employees effective friday - you should be able to see the press release in the Announcements. Now, on the face of it, that really does sound like the end of Mythos as we know it - but we have a tight-knit team that feels like family and hopes to stick together. Unfortunately, I can’t speak at any real length about our immediate plans just yet - but let’s say that we hope to have you back up and Beta testing for us in one way or another sometime soon.

You’ve been an incredible community that we’ve all felt priveleged to be a part of, and we’re not quite ready to let go of that little family just yet. No matter the outcome, this has been a fantastic experience, and I and the team would like to thank each and every one of you for the tireless hours of testing and discussion you’ve undergone, and the uniquely friendly community spirit that you all helped foster. It’s been a treat every step of the way.

So, I’m not exactly sure how long Mythos in its current form will remain up, since it is effectively a testing server. I’ll try to get you that information as soon as I can.In the meantime, I know the rest of the team would love to post their farewells and thanks to all of you. We’ll try to keep you as up to date as we can in one way or another.

Thanks again to all of you - and I hope to be seeing all of you online again very, very soon.
Travis
Margalis
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Reply #123 on: July 16, 2008, 09:12:14 AM

Translation: the useless C-level jobs are hanging around hoping to collect some venture funding and fail spectacularly once again.

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Amaron
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Reply #124 on: July 16, 2008, 09:27:31 AM


I said this above.  It also is the underlying thought behind Sanya's blog. Why are you reinventing the wheel Every. Single. Project.  Did some new technology occur that makes your chat system better/ different than every other chat system and IRC client on the planet?

Being someone who's a coder in the industry I believe I can point to one possible reason for why this keeps recurring.  A lot of people who code games see themselves as sort of above the cut compared to people who might code what they see as mundane things.  When something like the chat system comes up often it won't even occur to them to license already existing code.   A chat system is seen as trivial and the time taken to write one from scratch is heavily underestimated.

Even worse on more technical topics like coding relevant to the database will be seen as "high brow" enough for a game coder to tangle with.  Yet in reality they don't have the experience and will fumble or take too much time on the work.   This applies to management who are former coders as well.   You can even see some of this easily without even working in the field.   CCP has been pretty public about some of their backend stuff so we know that they use MS SQL and that the choice to do so was made by people who had no relevant experience in the field.
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Reply #125 on: July 16, 2008, 10:12:14 AM

It's not just using existing code but even using existing techniques. Even if your chat system needs to be coded from scratch for some reason it's not like chat itself is some exciting new field that you have to blaze a trail in.

Most software devs think they can do better. They look at code and it isn't their coding style, or they don't like how it's organized, so they figure they should just do it themselves.

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Reply #126 on: July 16, 2008, 10:41:40 AM

One thing that sticks out to me is the speed at which this happened.  Released last quarter of '07 and failed 2nd quarter or '08. 




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Reply #127 on: July 16, 2008, 05:32:01 PM

It's a case of betting the house on one horse, imo. If HG:L had been a huge success, there wouldn't have been an issue.

Look at Fury - Auran thought it would successful and poured a lot of money into it. Fury flopped and it takes down the company with them.

Most game dev studios have enough cash (by hook or by crook) to get their current project out the door, but not a whole lot more.

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Reply #128 on: July 16, 2008, 05:47:28 PM

Something about this just doesn't smell right. 

That would probably be the stench coming off the game itself, no?

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Reply #129 on: July 16, 2008, 06:00:42 PM

It's a case of betting the house on one horse, imo. If HG:L had been a huge success, there wouldn't have been an issue.

Weren't they also developing Mythos as well, as a "network test" for Hellgate?

Which never made any sense at all, they are creating a whole nother game to test Hellgate tech, and actually starting and delivering it *after* Hellgate is released?

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Reply #130 on: July 16, 2008, 07:31:15 PM

It's a case of betting the house on one horse, imo. If HG:L had been a huge success, there wouldn't have been an issue.

Weren't they also developing Mythos as well, as a "network test" for Hellgate?

Which never made any sense at all, they are creating a whole nother game to test Hellgate tech, and actually starting and delivering it *after* Hellgate is released?

That's right - Mythos was released as some sort of tech test / demo while HG:L was the main show. I thought it was weird that it was released so close to HG:L being shipped anyway - by that time, it would have been too late to iron out any major bugs.

It seemed to me that when HG:L flagshipped, they looked to Mythos as something else Flagship could hang their hat on.

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Reply #131 on: July 17, 2008, 02:13:01 AM

It's not just using existing code but even using existing techniques. Even if your chat system needs to be coded from scratch for some reason it's not like chat itself is some exciting new field that you have to blaze a trail in.

Most software devs think they can do better. They look at code and it isn't their coding style, or they don't like how it's organized, so they figure they should just do it themselves.

Ya, the code for the irc server most of the net uses has been free to look at for over 10 years but still we get chat clients that aren't half as usable as irc.

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Reply #132 on: July 17, 2008, 02:47:26 AM

So it's less Flagship sunk and all hands lost, more Flagship having gone underwater but the people still trapped inside have some air left?

replace the text on my original picture with 'lol I am a .. complicated, esoteric metaphor, possibly involving merfolk'
Lantyssa
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Reply #133 on: July 17, 2008, 08:37:54 AM

That would probably be the stench coming off the game itself, no?
Between this and their stupid, over-priced subscription plan, it's what I've been smelling.  Other factors might play a role, and I don't like seeing anybody out of a job, but I hope it at least puts a steak in the heart of that bone-headed idea.

(sic)

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Reply #134 on: July 17, 2008, 08:44:44 AM

That would probably be the stench coming off the game itself, no?
Between this and their stupid, over-priced subscription plan, it's what I've been smelling.  Other factors might play a role, and I don't like seeing anybody out of a job, but I hope it at least puts a steak in the heart of that bone-headed idea.

(sic)
Mmm. T-bone steak.

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Reply #135 on: July 17, 2008, 09:11:51 AM

There's a company at steak!
Tige
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Reply #136 on: July 17, 2008, 10:14:29 AM




Quote
HanbitSoft also stated, “Flagship not only lacked effort, but were only looking for personal gain. Firing all of the Flagship employees in order to protect the personal interests of its founding members only shows how selfish and irresponsible they are.”


Whoa.

www.hellgateguru.com for the rest of this.

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Reply #137 on: July 17, 2008, 10:25:06 AM

When does the class-action suit for lifetime subs start? Or weren't there enough dumbasses signing up for that quite obvious scam?  awesome, for real
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Reply #138 on: July 17, 2008, 11:10:50 AM

When does the class-action suit for lifetime subs start? Or weren't there enough dumbasses signing up for that quite obvious scam?  awesome, for real
Your sub lasted the life of the game...

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
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Reply #139 on: July 17, 2008, 12:56:07 PM




Quote
HanbitSoft also stated, “Flagship not only lacked effort, but were only looking for personal gain. Firing all of the Flagship employees in order to protect the personal interests of its founding members only shows how selfish and irresponsible they are.”


Whoa.

www.hellgateguru.com for the rest of this.




When Fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross - Sinclair Lewis.

I can tell more than 1 fucktard at a time to stfu, have no fears. - WayAbvPar

We all have the God-given right to go to hell our own way.  Don't fuck with God's plan. - MahrinSkel
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