WAR to be released...

[Lakov_Sanite]

As Mark's reading here:
WoW dropped their NDA in March for a late 2004 launch.
WAR still has their NDA up, presumably for a late 2008 launch.
Does this mean WAR is less ready than WoW was at this relative point in time?

One of the Netdevil developers was talking about Auto Assault, Betas, and NDAs in a recent interview.  His "lesson learned" is that Beta tests for MMOs are little more than Demos and NDAs in beta usually mean your game isn't that good and probably shouldn't be in Beta in the first place.

From the gameplay vid at E3 i agree.

[Trippy]

Okay people it's time to stop speculating about why the posts were deleted. As amiable said it was schild's call. He's busy to moving to Austin so he can't give his reasons at the moment (assuming he wants to).

Read this post for the guidelines on what to post regarding games still under NDA:

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=13793.0

[UnSub]

As Mark's reading here:
WoW dropped their NDA in March for a late 2004 launch.
WAR still has their NDA up, presumably for a late 2008 launch.
Does this mean WAR is less ready than WoW was at this relative point in time?

One of the Netdevil developers was talking about Auto Assault, Betas, and NDAs in a recent interview.  His "lesson learned" is that Beta tests for MMOs are little more than Demos and NDAs in beta usually mean your game isn't that good and probably shouldn't be in Beta in the first place.

Firstly, NetDevil. Who appear on the verge of not being able to even get a Lego MMO done right.

Secondly, the market associates an NDA drop as the point where the game is good enough to talk about. Having an NDA on open beta is pointless, sure, but an NDA on a closed beta is useful as a preventative measure for stopping everyone talking about bugs / issues that are planned to be fixed. It locks down discussion to some degree, which is useful for a game under a form of testing.

Best practise in a beta is certainly not having an open beta too early or letting players scream far and wide that it OMG SUX. Hence the NDA, which says players can get kicked out of beta (at least) if they get caught breaking it.

As for what f13 does - it's a social contract of sorts. Just like I don't post NSFW pictures throughout threads - there's no contract that says I can't, but it is just poor form for doing it on f13. Elsewhere it might be acceptable.

[slog]

Okay people it's time to stop speculating about why the posts were deleted. As amiable said it was schild's call. He's busy to moving to Austin so he can't give his reasons at the moment (assuming he wants to).

Until schild says otherwise here are the guidelines# to follow:

* If you are thinking about posting something that would break the NDA DON'T, even if you haven't accepted any NDA agreement yourself.

* If you are thinking about posting something but aren't sure if it would break the NDA DON'T, even if you haven't accepted any NDA agreement yourself.

* If you are under NDA DON'T post any NDA-breaking stuff -- doing so will get you banned (we've banned people for doing this for other games)

* If you are under NDA do not hint or imply anything using the smiley or other means.


# I say guidelines cause there's no way reasonable way for the Mods to check everything that's posted about WAR for NDA-breakage. As always we're trusting you to use your best judgement about this sort of stuff.

I, for one, will be sure to not break any NDAs or post and NDA breaking stuff, even though I have no idea what NDAs are in place, having never read or been told of said NDAs.  (lol)

[Trippy]

I, for one, will be sure to not break any NDAs or post and NDA breaking stuff, even though I have no idea what NDAs are in place, having never read or been told of said NDAs.  (lol)

If a game is still in Beta assume there's an NDA in place until you hear otherwise from an official source.

[slog]

I, for one, will be sure to not break any NDAs or post and NDA breaking stuff, even though I have no idea what NDAs are in place, having never read or been told of said NDAs.  (lol)

If a game is still in Beta assume there's an NDA in place until you hear otherwise from an official source.

So we can't talk about games in Beta?

[slog]

As Mark's reading here:
WoW dropped their NDA in March for a late 2004 launch.
WAR still has their NDA up, presumably for a late 2008 launch.
Does this mean WAR is less ready than WoW was at this relative point in time?

One of the Netdevil developers was talking about Auto Assault, Betas, and NDAs in a recent interview.  His "lesson learned" is that Beta tests for MMOs are little more than Demos and NDAs in beta usually mean your game isn't that good and probably shouldn't be in Beta in the first place.

Firstly, NetDevil. Who appear on the verge of not being able to even get a Lego MMO done right.

Secondly, the market associates an NDA drop as the point where the game is good enough to talk about. Having an NDA on open beta is pointless, sure, but an NDA on a closed beta is useful as a preventative measure for stopping everyone talking about bugs / issues that are planned to be fixed. It locks down discussion to some degree, which is useful for a game under a form of testing.

Best practise in a beta is certainly not having an open beta too early or letting players scream far and wide that it OMG SUX. Hence the NDA, which says players can get kicked out of beta (at least) if they get caught breaking it.

As for what f13 does - it's a social contract of sorts. Just like I don't post NSFW pictures throughout threads - there's no contract that says I can't, but it is just poor form for doing it on f13. Elsewhere it might be acceptable.

His point was that by the time you reach beta, every system should be done and your bug queue should be close to empty.

[tazelbain]

I, for one, will be sure to not break any NDAs or post and NDA breaking stuff, even though I have no idea what NDAs are in place, having never read or been told of said NDAs.  (lol)

If a game is still in Beta assume there's an NDA in place until you hear otherwise from an official source.

So we can't talk about games in Beta?

You can still lie about them though.

[Trippy]

So we can't talk about games in Beta?

Did you read the guidelines?

[slog]

So we can't talk about games in Beta?

Did you read the guidelines?

If you are thinking about posting something but aren't sure if it would break the NDA DON'T, even if you haven't accepted any NDA agreement yourself.

How could anyone be sure unless they read the NDA.  You are asking people to follow a document they have never seen...nevermind. Good luck on your beta invite.

[UnSub]

His point was that by the time you reach beta, every system should be done and your bug queue should be close to empty.

... ready to be filled up with all the new bugs and system changes that players find / suggest.

It's a line call if changing systems in beta is a good idea or not, but if a lot of beta players say that system X sucks and needs to be improved, then you (the dev) should strongly consider it.

I agree on launching at feature and content complete, but beta should be a testing phase as well, and testing may reveal needed changes. Having an NDA in place for part of that stops a lot of confusing information coming out ("We started with a skill system, but now we have skill trees! Ignore all the other information you've seen about the skill system!").

[Lantyssa]

Did you read the guidelines?

He's being purposefully obtuse.  Don't waste your time unless it's to nuke him.

We all know games like to put out some information.  With the number of people following them it'll be fairly common knowledge about what has been released.  The rest is speculation on past behavior, hopes, and the crap we've all seen before.  Thankfully, most of us have at least a touch of common sense.

[Trippy]

So we can't talk about games in Beta?

Did you read the guidelines?

If you are thinking about posting something but aren't sure if it would break the NDA DON'T, even if you haven't accepted any NDA agreement yourself.

How could anyone be sure unless they read the NDA.  You are asking people to follow a document they have never seen...nevermind. Good luck on your beta invite.

A beta game NDA covers *everything* in the game -- i.e. you can't publically talk about anything in the beta version of the game. It's not a selective thing where certain beta features you can talk publically about and others you can not.

[Trippy]

Okay I've modified the original guidelines since some people apparently don't know what a game NDA is about. Read this:

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=13793.0

and if you have more questions/concerns/comments post in there (I unlocked it).

[Hutch]

Could you look up individual players and check out their gear and spec etc?

We had the technical capability to publish that data (it was available to CSRs) but our players were almost unanimously opposed to it.

Blizzard has views on data/player privacy that I... somewhat disagree with, to put it mildly.

Really? Still? The Armory has been violating the "privacy" of WoW's players for over a year, they never gave the players an opt-in or an opt-out, and somehow the game still has millions of subscribers. You still think they're doing it wrong?

I think they got an idea for a great peripheral feature of their game, developed it, and published it, and didn't roll it all back at the first sign of trouble from a player whining about "privacy". Now there are entire websites that are powered by this new data source that Blizzard has provided. I bet you could count the number of players who quit over the god damned Armory on one donut.

Here's an idea. You don't have to try it, though. I'm just thinking out loud here: Make a game that's so good that the players will accept little indignities, like having data that [Your Company] owns be published on [Your Company's Domain].

I've noticed that Blizzard does things that no one else will dare to do. Like poke fun at the small-minded idiosyncrasies of their playerbase. And publicly humiliate players who are trying to jerk them around. Oh, and create the best diku mmog in the world.

"The customer is always right" is a relic of a bygone age, when customers were few and far between, behaved like grown adults, and were willing to pay top dollar for good service. Here in the real world, the customer is sometimes wrong, the customer sometimes doesn't know what they really want, and the customer sometimes shouldn't be allowed to get in the way of improving your game.

[tmp]

I think they got an idea for a great peripheral feature of their game (..)

I think you meant to say "they saw this idea for a great peripheral feature on 3rd party sites like Thottbots during beta, and rolled their own some year+ later".

I've noticed that Blizzard does things that no one else will dare to do. Like poke fun at the small-minded idiosyncrasies of their playerbase. And publicly humiliate players who are trying to jerk them around.

That's just being a dick on the internets. Half of the MMO community managers are like that, Blizzard is hardly a spearhead here.

[tazelbain]

Could you look up individual players and check out their gear and spec etc?

We had the technical capability to publish that data (it was available to CSRs) but our players were almost unanimously opposed to it.

Blizzard has views on data/player privacy that I... somewhat disagree with, to put it mildly.

Really? Still? The Armory has been violating the "privacy" of WoW's players for over a year, they never gave the players an opt-in or an opt-out, and somehow the game still has millions of subscribers. You still think they're doing it wrong?

I think they got an idea for a great peripheral feature of their game, developed it, and published it, and didn't roll it all back at the first sign of trouble from a player whining about "privacy". Now there are entire websites that are powered by this new data source that Blizzard has provided. I bet you could count the number of players who quit over the god damned Armory on one donut.

Here's an idea. You don't have to try it, though. I'm just thinking out loud here: Make a game that's so good that the players will accept little indignities, like having data that [Your Company] owns be published on [Your Company's Domain].

I've noticed that Blizzard does things that no one else will dare to do. Like poke fun at the small-minded idiosyncrasies of their playerbase. And publicly humiliate players who are trying to jerk them around. Oh, and create the best diku mmog in the world.

"The customer is always right" is a relic of a bygone age, when customers were few and far between, behaved like grown adults, and were willing to pay top dollar for good service. Here in the real world, the customer is sometimes wrong, the customer sometimes doesn't know what they really want, and the customer sometimes shouldn't be allowed to get in the way of improving your game.

That is might fine cocksucking there, son.  Keep up the fine work.

[AngryGumball]

Is Bat Country in this round now? Time to have them removed for far to much discussion so far. :P

[Lum]

Really? Still? The Armory has been violating the "privacy" of WoW's players for over a year, they never gave the players an opt-in or an opt-out, and somehow the game still has millions of subscribers. You still think they're doing it wrong?

Yes. Amazingly, some ethical decisions are based on other than financial considerations.

I also happen to believe devoting a page on your website to mocking the opinions of some of your customers may not be the most professional thing to do.

Clearly, however, since I do not work on World of Warcraft, my opinions have no merit.

[Hutch]

I think they got an idea for a great peripheral feature of their game (..)

I think you meant to say "they saw this idea for a great peripheral feature on 3rd party sites like Thottbots during beta, and rolled their own some year+ later".

I've noticed that Blizzard does things that no one else will dare to do. Like poke fun at the small-minded idiosyncrasies of their playerbase. And publicly humiliate players who are trying to jerk them around.

That's just being a dick on the internets. Half of the MMO community managers are like that, Blizzard is hardly a spearhead here.

Well I never said Blizzard came up with their own ideas :)

[Hutch]

Really? Still? The Armory has been violating the "privacy" of WoW's players for over a year, they never gave the players an opt-in or an opt-out, and somehow the game still has millions of subscribers. You still think they're doing it wrong?

Yes. Amazingly, some ethical decisions are based on other than financial considerations.

Apparently, it's not just ethical decisions that don't have financial success as a motivator. I predict that whatever you're currently working on won't break 300k subs. I'm sure you'll explain that away with ethics too.

I know, I know. How did I ever come up with such a pessimistic number. It's like I'm Nostradamus or something.

[Hutch]

That is might fine cocksucking there, son.  Keep up the fine work.

Hey you know what? I'd absolutely love it if someone would come along and knock WoW off its perch. Or even compete with them. It would be great for me, the consumer, if someone other than Blizzard was making high-quality MMOGs. But they're not. They're putting shit on a plate and expecting us to call it steak.

I called WoW "the best diku mmog". Some would say that was damning it with faint praise. You came up with "cocksucking".

[amiable]

Okay I've modified the original guidelines since some people apparently don't know what a game NDA is about. Read this:

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=13793.0

and if you have more questions/concerns/comments post in there (I unlocked it).

Thanks for the update and the sticky!  Much clearer now.   Sorry for the earlier violation.

As for everyone else, whatever the motivation of the mods for not breaking the NDA (morality, free beta invites, hookers and blow) this is still a privately run website and they are free to delete posts or ban folks for whatever reason.  This is not a democracy and we are not unique and special snowflakes.

[Koyasha]

Introducing an Armory-like feature to an existing game that launched without it and therefore players had some expectation of keeping things about their characters secret from other players is perhaps a bit questionable, but launching a game that has such a feature already in place isn't, because it's part of the deal you sign up for.  Going to play this game?  Then you should be aware that your build/stats/items/etc will be publically viewable.  Even so, I support Blizzard's decision to introduce the Armory to their existing game despite the players' earlier expectations of secrecy, simply because I think the benefits outweigh the downside, and as with anything in MMOG's, all players should expect change in any or all areas of the game.

And except for the question of players having expected this information to be secret at one point, and later it no longer was, I see very little downside to the Armory that isn't overwhelmingly outweighed by its benefits.  Keeping those things secret has very few legitimate upsides, other than allowing players to decieve each other, while making them public allows players to ferret out the liars if they're interested.  The downside is that in some PvP engagements the enemy may have in-depth knowledge of your talents and equipment, but there are, honestly, rather few engagements where this is true.  It's rare to be able to spend time studying a target, getting their name, looking them up on the armory and learning about their build before engaging.

As for mocking your customers, I think some people deserve to be mocked when they behave in a manner that is worthy of it.  Including myself, on the occasions I do something worth mocking.  Should a company do that to its customers?  Eh.  If the people running the company feel that way, then I think they should.  But then I have somewhat unusual opinions about tact, being offended, and how to best communicate, so I recognize I might be in a minority when it comes to thinking that way.  Realistically speaking, it obviously wouldn't work for all companies - it works for Blizzard because they're secure enough to do so and because they've got a reputation that allows them to get away with it without pissing off too many customers.

[sam, an eggplant]

Apparently, it's not just ethical decisions that don't have financial success as a motivator. I predict that whatever you're currently working on won't break 300k subs.

Wow, way to be a dick there, Hutch. If you have something to say, come out and say it. Because it looks like you came out of left field and attacked probably the one single person everybody on this board likes and respects for no particular reason.

[Triforcer]

Really? Still? The Armory has been violating the "privacy" of WoW's players for over a year, they never gave the players an opt-in or an opt-out, and somehow the game still has millions of subscribers. You still think they're doing it wrong?

Yes. Amazingly, some ethical decisions are based on other than financial considerations.

I also happen to believe devoting a page on your website to mocking the opinions of some of your customers may not be the most professional thing to do.

Clearly, however, since I do not work on World of Warcraft, my opinions have no merit.

Oh lord, is this about the April Fool's day stuff?  If anything, their occasional parodies made me MORE likely to subscribe, because it shows that some people there have a sense of humor- and people with a sense of humor make better games than those without.  Do you think many of the humorous details in WoW (the kind of stuff that gives an MMO world life) would be there if they were all corpses in suits?  This reminds me of the Dr. Twista incident that you covered extensively on LTM (someone live-linked a photo of the EQ staff to the Twista frontpage, so the devs changed it to a photo mocking Twista).  In that comment thread, someone made a comment about how they were offended because the time the devs took to put that picture up is time they weren't spending improving the game.  Offense about the "tinfoil hat" is pretty much at that level. 

And re: Armory- as a lawyer, "privacy" does not mean what you think it means.  Blizzard isn't violating any of your "rights" by using the Armory.   

[slog]

Okay I've modified the original guidelines since some people apparently don't know what a game NDA is about. Read this:

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=13793.0

and if you have more questions/concerns/comments post in there (I unlocked it).

Thanks for the update and the sticky!  Much clearer now.   Sorry for the earlier violation.

As for everyone else, whatever the motivation of the mods for not breaking the NDA (morality, free beta invites, hookers and blow) this is still a privately run website and they are free to delete posts or ban folks for whatever reason.  This is not a democracy and we are not unique and special snowflakes.

We covered the obligatory comment about free speech and the constituion already.  Thanks for playing

[Fordel]

A DaoC armory that showed gear would be moot regardless, everyone used the same near identical SC-Templates for their classes 

[Riggswolfe]

His point was that by the time you reach beta, every system should be done and your bug queue should be close to empty.

I'm not trying to be a dick but do you even know what a beta is? A real beta, not the open beta stress test the servers stuff.

[slog]

His point was that by the time you reach beta, every system should be done and your bug queue should be close to empty.

I'm not trying to be a dick but do you even know what a beta is? A real beta, not the open beta stress test the servers stuff.

That was his whole point.  MMOG betas are no longer "real betas."  They are dog and pony shows. 

[amiable]

We covered the obligatory comment about free speech and the constituion already.  Thanks for playing

And yet you still complained...  Funny that.  And I was more mocking you for your accusations that there was some sort of Beta invite quid pro quo for quashing NDA violations.   

[slog]

We covered the obligatory comment about free speech and the constituion already.  Thanks for playing

And yet you still complained...  Funny that.  And I was more mocking you for your accusations that there was some sort of Beta invite quid pro quo for quashing NDA violations.   

Well at least you understood the point...

[Sky]

His point was that by the time you reach beta, every system should be done and your bug queue should be close to empty.

I'm not trying to be a dick but do you even know what a beta is? A real beta, not the open beta stress test the servers stuff.

That was his whole point.  MMOG betas are no longer "real betas."  They are dog and pony shows. 

This is incorrect. Some betas are dog and pony shows, but many are making real changes based on how things work when players get in and put the game through its paces. Did you suddenly become a petulant newbie?

[Abelian75]

Wow, I'm kind of amazed that there are, like, intelligent people who consider WoW's armory a moral issue.  I mean... really?  Really?  Is it bad to be able to inspect people too?  What the hell?

[slog]

His point was that by the time you reach beta, every system should be done and your bug queue should be close to empty.

I'm not trying to be a dick but do you even know what a beta is? A real beta, not the open beta stress test the servers stuff.

That was his whole point.  MMOG betas are no longer "real betas."  They are dog and pony shows. 

This is incorrect. Some betas are dog and pony shows, but many are making real changes based on how things work when players get in and put the game through its paces. Did you suddenly become a petulant newbie?

It's too late at that point. If you are making wholesale changes in Beta, then your closed alpha testing was inadequate and you are in trouble. That was the lesson learned from Auto Assault.   I dug up one of the articles for you all via google cache for the other lessons learned, but so much is blocked here at work that I can't dig up the specific article I'm talking about.

 http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/7919