Dragon Age

[stray]

Why draw inspiration from an MMO for anything offline/single player? That, and most MMO's like it, is built on the assumption that there will be bottlenecks, and that you have to compensate for them. Shit like the rage bar and combo points are not virtues. They are workarounds. If you actually had the opportunity to change a single player game's combat system, you're saying you'd want more WoW? Seriously?

[Yoru]

The one benefit I see to being a melee character is that sometimes you get slow-mo special death animations.

In reality you will never see these except on trash whites, because everything non-trivial will be dropped by your mages instead of some guy with a dinky piece of sharp metal.

[eldaec]

Against Dark Spawn and undead, there is also runes.

Couple of high end silverite rules on a weapon that already has +darkspawn damage and you are one shotting almost everything except bosses.

In fact, in general I do more damage with melee so long as I micromanage weapons and armour to match weaknesses/damage type of the mobs. Fighting dragons (or most other reds) I have to keep the mages on heal/buff/debuff just to avoid aggro.

AW is a special case ofc (but you will get the special fatality animation with them as well).

[rk47]

Why draw inspiration from an MMO for anything offline/single player? That, and most MMO's like it, is built on the assumption that there will be bottlenecks, and that you have to compensate for them. Shit like the rage bar and combo points are not virtues. They are workarounds. If you actually had the opportunity to change a single player game's combat system, you're saying you'd want more WoW? Seriously?

A unique resource to spend on each character ability - combo points & rage bar isn't a bad thing to make each individual archetype abilities flow better. Stamina is just wrong. I couldn't even spend stamina to launch two special arrows in succession wtf is this shit?

The current issue with balance is that the Mage's AOE Damage & CC Ability is through the roof right from the start, no thanks to so much instant cast going on making casting interrupts impossible. We're talking a freaking Cone AOE Damage - INSTANT CAST spell with a chance to CC. Fuck, even yellows are deadmeat with Crushing Prison. Just toss a Magic Resistance Debuff and it'll land. Throw a frostbite + arcane missile and it's dead once the Prison ticks off while the Rogue & Warrior flounders around or 'on hold' till combat is over to loot / stun bash the frozen enemies.

[Strazos]

If you want this game to be more like WoW, maybe that's the game you should be playing instead.

My melee works fine, actually. I only use Morrigan, and she mostly just CCs stuff, while melee tears through things.

[tmp]

At the end of the game I had ~150 spellpower

Man; at the end of the game my Morrigan was a little bit shy of 50 spellpower and Wynne had something like 35. Both were l.18.

Wth did you people do to get 150?

[stray]

I guess I'm unintentionally turning a blind eye to stamina being an issue. My melee was a dual wielder, so he doesn't need much. It basically just came down to three attacks I'd really rely on (the aoe's and a flurry). That he was a Templar probably gave him a modest amount of willpower/stam. Otherwise, he's still killing shit without stam. The only thing that improve the combat is the actual interactivity. Fuck WoW. If you're going to improve melee in RPG's, borrow from beat em ups/hack and slash or something. Melee is only truly fun when you have to actively defend a lot. Demon's Souls feels like that, and it's great.

I had a rogue, but he was a bow user.. So I can't complain about stam there either.

[Yoru]

Perhaps one of the problems is that melee characters have many stats they need to focus on, whereas casters have two: willpower and magic. Willpower buffs stam/mana and stam/mana regen. The result being that mages, while expending the same absolute amount on any given ability, end up spending a much smaller percentage of their pool per ability.

My main's a mage, so I never really look at the melee users unless either my main falls due to a fuckup or I've got hold-position on and am micromanaging the shit out of stuff.

[Tebonas]

Different strokes and all that. I fucking hate to defend while meleeing (escpecially when I have to do it myself, thats what character stats are for). I guess thats why I don't play beat em ups.

Why does everybody want to make rpgs into different genres? What about small squad based tactic combat? Worked in RPGs for decades.

[stray]

Tactical is OK, but this doesn't do that well either. I'm not really complaining though. I play Bioware games for the stories. As much fun as I had with Demon's Souls, I also griped about the story there. Definitely not as extensive as Dragon Age.

I think bioware is heading more and more in the direction of action though, whatwith Jade Empire and Mass Effect. This was more of a throwback/oldskool thing. For some reason.

[tmp]

escpecially when I have to do it myself, thats what character stats are for

Kinda this. If a game doesn't require my own physical endurance to determine whether my characters can still keep going, or my own brains (or lack thereof) to pass conversation checks and whatnot, then linking the ability of the character to dodge shit to my own dexterity is sort of dissonance. I get the "moar fun" factor but it puts the whole roleplaying thing into question.

[BitWarrior]

Hmm. Spells overall are decent ideas, DA implementation of the melee needs work though. There's gotta be a reason why I rather be a guy in plate than the dude able to unleash ice storm, slowing those bastids in the process, then summon a pool of grease when they get too close before knocking them off with a fireball and start the BBQ grill.

Probably need to steal more ideas from WoW / other MMOs:
- Intercept. I find it fucking annoying to have to walk my tank through all that shitty traps and spells effects before actually getting to close range.
- Rage Bar please. I'd like a way to do special move than waiting for the yellow bar to regen ever so slowly. Autoattack sucks dick when mages just chug blue pot and spit fireballs whenever they want to.
- Probably sound like a broken record, but rogues with dual wields having combo points to spend instead of staminas? Why the hell not?
- Fix Shapeshifting for fuck sake. Who the fuck created that shit? At least make it instant-cast goddamit.

I hate this kind of shit. "Here are the areas where the game is not, in fact, WoW, and thus needs to be more like WoW." Of course at that point, you'll then complain it's a WoW clone. If you can't handle the mechanics of games that are not WoW, do not play games that are not WoW.

[eldaec]

Of course melee should have an resource bar that is developed in combat (a la combos, rage, ) rather than out of combat (a la stamina). But so should everyone.

Mana/stamina mechanics based on out of combat regen always suck. They are a horrid design holdover from D&D, and designers need to get the fuck over it.

This isn't about making it like wow, a game that has somehow managed to avoid introducing a single innovative mechanic in approaching 10 years of development, it is about making it like the vast array of (usually non-rpg) computer games, card games, pnp games, or whatever, that have any kind of intelligent resource development system.

One thing that irritates me more than designers making their games either superficially or substantially into EQ clones just because that is what Blizzard did with WoW, is people moaning that painfully straightforward mechanics like rage or intercept, which have been used for decades in almost every genre of gaming are somehow proprietary to Blizzard software.




Back to DA, if you don't like that wizards get to buy pots to keep casting, train poison making and start throwing grenades.

And there is no good reason you can't develop warriors to exceed mage dps and survivability, particularly vs bosses, and particularly when you don't have initiative. What you can't do is match mage effectiveness on control of adds or team support and healing.

[Riggswolfe]

Well, I've done two and a half playthroughs now, one of each class and I have to say, so far, rogue was my favorite.

Warrior - It was my first playthrough and I went sword and board early in the game, then split off into two handed about halfway through. As a result I gimped my warrior and this turned out to be my hardest playthrough. I'd like to replay a warrior and either do two handed the whole way or experiment with dual wielding longswords though I suspect he'd end up as basically a rogue in heavy armor without stealth or backstab at that point.

Rogue- This was my most fun playthrough so far. I don't get why people say rogues are gimped. I dual wielded daggers the whole time and this character tore things up. As long as I managed to stay behind the enemies I was golden. She was so good at dodging she could even tank for a short period of time if something weird happened.

Mage- This is my "evil" playthrough which means Leiliana and Wynne are dead at my hands. This mage has fire and lightning trained up as well as mass paralysis and grease. I've gotten spirit healer and plan to train in blood magic at level 14 just for the heck of it. This character just isn't as fun as the rogue so far. I find that I either kill stuff really, really easily, or I die when they get close and breath on me. (the Drakes in the Urn quest were quite challenging for this character because she was still totally fire focused at the time.) Oh, and I apparently don't have the timing on the storm of the century down or am doing it wrong or something.

I also played through all the origin stories and so far my favorites are the dwarf noble and city elf stories. I'm considering finishing my characters from all of the origin stories just to see what, if any, differences there are in the endings and game play. I know most of the gameplay differences are probably minor, but my city elf rogue, for example, had the option to make life better for the city elves at the end of her playthrough and that was reflected in the ending. I'm guessing most others have similar things they can do.

[Lantyssa]

I went with strength on my Rogue since she was in the thick of things and I didn't have combat stealth for the longest time.  She's wearing 'Warrior' armor and dual wielding longswords.  Because of it she actually has better armor and much higher defense than Alistair.

[caladein]

Perhaps one of the problems is that melee characters have many stats they need to focus on, whereas casters have two: willpower and magic. Willpower buffs stam/mana and stam/mana regen. The result being that mages, while expending the same absolute amount on any given ability, end up spending a much smaller percentage of their pool per ability.

This.
That said, I'm having a blast with my current Archery character (Human Noble Rogue).  Archery is pretty poorly supported by the Tactics system compared to Magic, but having the PC be an Archer and using Better Archery to make it all less is awesome.

[Threash]

With magic affecting the strength of mana potions and unlimited amounts of lesser mana pots being available there's virtually zero reason to pump anything but magic on a mage.

[rk47]

You still want Willpower if you want to keep up a few sustainable spells like Haste / Weapon buffs.

[Merusk]

Finally finished the game, quite happy with the ending and the game in general.  The end battle was pretty frantic, and I was sure I was going to be hosed when both my mages died.  Hooray for still carrying tons of health pots.

[BitWarrior]

Finally finished the game, quite happy with the ending and the game in general.  The end battle was pretty frantic, and I was sure I was going to be hosed when both my mages died.  Hooray for still carrying tons of health pots.

He never lives through that, no matter what you do. If you're thinking about all the possible endings, the one you're probably thinking of involves a...erm..."different" Grey Warden.

[Threash]

Finally finished the game, quite happy with the ending and the game in general.  The end battle was pretty frantic, and I was sure I was going to be hosed when both my mages died.  Hooray for still carrying tons of health pots.

He never lives through that, no matter what you do. If you're thinking about all the possible endings, the one you're probably thinking of involves a...erm..."different" Grey Warden.

That was his point, sacrificing himself should be a viable plan but instead the idiot kamikazes himself.

[tmp]

That was his point, sacrificing himself should be a viable plan but instead the idiot kamikazes himself.

[Riggswolfe]

Perhaps one of the problems is that melee characters have many stats they need to focus on, whereas casters have two: willpower and magic. Willpower buffs stam/mana and stam/mana regen. The result being that mages, while expending the same absolute amount on any given ability, end up spending a much smaller percentage of their pool per ability.

This.
That said, I'm having a blast with my current Archery character (Human Noble Rogue).  Archery is pretty poorly supported by the Tactics system compared to Magic, but having the PC be an Archer and using Better Archery to make it all less is awesome.

You know, I'm not sure I've ever put points into willpower as a warrior or rogue and I don't tend to have many problems. Then again I don't usually use many sustainable abilities so maybe that affects thinghs.

I'm seriously considering experimenting with a dex/str warrior who dual wields. I think he'd probably end up being a gimped rogue but it could be fun. I never wanted to use long swords or axes as a rogue because I'd lose the dex bonus on daggers which seemed to up my damage a ton.

[caladein]

DW Warrior with two longswords was my first character.  Pre-1.02 I was able to hit three attacks (Whirlwind, Punisher, and maybe a Flurry or Sweep) and then auto-attack the rest of the way.  Maybe get off another Dual-Weapon Sweep if the fight went on for a while.  (I could have gone down to Medium/Heavy armor, but the Blood Dragon Armor was a bit too shiny to pass up.)

I imagine it's at least a bit better now.

[Raguel]

The more I read, the more I think I should have gotten this on the pc (I'm assuming the mods are pc only).

In most rpg games (mmo or otherwise) I usually go with a s/s knight type. In DA, my rogue  (Master ranger pets, combat stealth, dual wielding Starfang and Topsider's Honor) was by far the most fun so far. So much fun I made another.

I'm pretty sure I needed 6+ pots at Landsmeet for my s/s champ, I only needed 2 for my rogue, *and* my pet couldn't get to the fight to help me out. I wonder what would have happened if pathing didn't suck, and I used combat stealth whenever it was available. I think I have a save, I should load it up and see what happens. eta: Only one pot that time. I'm surprised I had to use one tbh. I had him down to about 50% while I was at 90%.  Pet still wouldn't attack, but then I  probably summoned it too early. I only used combat stealth 2x. The weird thing is, for some reason I had way more stam and faster regeneration than I remember. I guess I had the pet up but it didn't count against me? Or maybe I didn't have song of valor up last time.

I've only gotten my mage to around 5 or so. I think he does way more damage, but is also less fun. I guess I just prefer the action to be up close and personal.

I agree re: stam issue. If sustains took about 1/4 or less stam and/or there were stam pots  it would be great. I also wouldn't mind if the range of the aoe styles being expanded just a bit.  


On a side note, I was *not* anticipating a different origin for my human noble mage. Really cool.

The dwarf noble story was fine, although I wish I had done that one first, and I could stop thinking of  this line  the whole time. So of course you know I had to go to the proving grounds heh.

[Sky]

In reality you will never see these except on trash whites, because everything non-trivial will be dropped by your mages instead of some guy with a dinky piece of sharp metal.

Completely untrue, especially since I only have Wynne as a healer/cc. There are some pretty great 2h finishes on big boss mobs. Finishing the Broodmother was one of the cooler moments of the game thus far.

What you can't do is match mage effectiveness on control of adds or team support and healing.

Heal poultices are more effective than Wynne for the most part, she's just easier to replenish. With taunting, champion skills, some 2h and some s&b skills, my front line guys have plenty of cc, if not quite the level that a paralysis or crushing prison gives, though usually on mobs I don't really need to cc anyway. Having two templars really helps fighting mages, too. No more worrying about cc on my guys or goddamned misdirection hex. Also, warriors and bards have some nice team buffs.

The thing about this 'mages are overpowered' thing that keeps coming up is...you don't need to play the most effective way in a single player rpg, yaknow. Sometimes you can have more fun ignoring the obvious overpowered stuff and not cheesing your way through the game.

[stray]

I suspect that the usual way that Grey Wardens took out Archdemons was by jumping on their backs. They were Griffon riders and all. So maybe the guy was just keeping tradition. Except without a Griffon or any backup

The thing about this 'mages are overpowered' thing that keeps coming up is...you don't need to play the most effective way in a single player rpg, yaknow. Sometimes you can have more fun ignoring the obvious overpowered stuff and not cheesing your way through the game.

Exactly. Sounds like we had a similar team setup Sky.

[tmp]

The weird thing is, for some reason I had way more stam and faster regeneration than I remember.

They upped regen rate in 1.02 patch iirc. It could be your previous experience was with earlier version of the game?

[01101010]

Completely untrue, especially since I only have Wynne as a healer/cc. There are some pretty great 2h finishes on big boss mobs. Finishing the Broodmother was one of the cooler moments of the game thus far.

Mine was Flemeth after mistakenly picking door number one instead of the money.

[Samprimary]

The thing about this 'mages are overpowered' thing that keeps coming up is...you don't need to play the most effective way in a single player rpg, yaknow. Sometimes you can have more fun ignoring the obvious overpowered stuff and not cheesing your way through the game.

I guess as the resident whiner-about-mages guy for the forum, I want to reiterate that it's mostly important from a design perspective: you want to make it so that the classes are all pretty fun and don't feel overshadowed, and that's kinda what went down. My friend quit playing his first character because it was a two handed warrior. 99% of the time, they can just be on autopilot. He was spending the entire game actually playing morrigan.

So he said 'fuck it, if I'm going to end up playing a mage anyway, I'm a make my own"

[Sky]

Which brings us around to stamina potions again. Imo the games biggest flaw, with the patch it's a bit better, but I still blow through all my stamina (2h warrior) in the first couple rounds of the fight, and I start at half stamina due to buffs.

[stray]

That's the other thing. A dw warrior doesn't need any sustained skills. They are kind of crappy actually. One is a speed boost that eats up stam, the other where you jab with both hands simultaneously. Both which negate the chance of crits. Or one of them does, I think. You're left with a full stam bar to do what you wish - and you don't need to do much to begin with.

A sword and board warrior doesn't need much stam either. Threaten and the main defensive stance is good. Any of your bashing or taunt skills aren't worth using on anything but elites.

[Xurtan]

Which brings us around to stamina potions again. Imo the games biggest flaw, with the patch it's a bit better, but I still blow through all my stamina (2h warrior) in the first couple rounds of the fight, and I start at half stamina due to buffs.

Just install the Stamina Potions mod, if it is that big of an issue.

[Raguel]

The weird thing is, for some reason I had way more stam and faster regeneration than I remember.

They upped regen rate in 1.02 patch iirc. It could be your previous experience was with earlier version of the game?

I have the game on the PS3. I haven't had to patch yet.

[eldaec]

So he said 'fuck it, if I'm going to end up playing a mage anyway, I'm a make my own"

imo, the way bioware should fix this is to scrap main characters. Means they can worry less about balance within the party.

Main characters always feel the flimsiest part of the setup in these games. Even though the origin stories themselves were great, I never felt DA manages to finish the main character story in a satisfactory way, maybe because bioware haven't really helped us define the main guy in the story.

Instead they could have you play through an origin story for each companion/party member (maybe triggered by the party reaching a specific area, or maybe you just play them one after another at the start, maybe have you pick 6 of 10 characters to form the group), have the origin stories include a couple of key decisions on the nature of the characters, and then let you identify the main protagonist half way through the story.