So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).

[Falconeer]

On the missing content clownesque topic, from todays' patch notes:

Mid Level (40) gameplay improvements

    * Field of the Dead: 100 additional mobs have found their way into the the playfield. In addition respawn times have been adjusted on both normal mobs and bosses to improve the playing experience. Also, a number of quests in the playfield have been improved upon.
    * Treasury of the Ancient Ones: This Dark dungeon in Khopshef plays like a new dungeon now! It has been revamped with a new event for both solo and group players. Special rewards await those who dare to take the challenge in Epic Mode. And you will no longer fall through the world when climbing up the statues.

This is not to prove my point, which had its own legs. This is just a PLUS.

The point everyone is failing to see is the game lacks PVP content, not PVE. Right now there's NONE of the former and plenty of the latter.

[Surlyboi]

I think that really says everything.

All it says to me is that one will run smoothly on a 5 year old computer and the other will need a 5 month old one.

And I'll take the latter. Crom take WoW and its cartoony lowest-common-denominator approach to everything.

[tmp]

Funnily enough...



neither game requires 5 month old computer, too. But middle ground is boring 

[Threash]

Hmm, I'm 53 and have done every quest in there and no more !s, how odd.

Either way though, apparently Falconeer is correct, and we've all been mis stating, there is not a lack of 40+ content, theres just a lack of 50-60 quests.

Anyone who quit at 40 due to "lack of content" was looking for an excuse.

The last quest there gave me a level 60 weapon as a reward, if you finished by 53 you probably skipped a zone at some point or missed some quests there. 

[caladein]

Yelling that so and so  "HATES WOW" is really neither accurate nor helpful in making better games. 

It's not, but seeing as how "Hater" is thrown around with some liberty by the pro-AoC crowd at any non-believer, I don't see what your point is.

The amount of strawmen going up in this thread is quickly going from to though, so keep it up everyone!

[Numtini]

I think when you have a new game, you rarely have people weighing its positives and negatives and making a choice between it and other games. Instead, it either is worth playing therefore you go with it or it sucks rocks and not worth playing. Honestly, with most games I think the idea of the shiny pretty much continues until you reach a point where something irks you enough that you just can't look at the damned thing, at which point you move from being a lover to a jilted lover aka a hater. For me that was hitting the first quest that required a group which made me face some of the real flaws in the game as well as the idea of playing with Barrens chat rejects that make up the AOC player community.

The real question is what happens past that when it's no longer new and shiny, when most of the egregious everyone saw it coming problems of launch are fixed and you are looking at being bored and thinking--"do I reup WoW, COX, EQ2, AOC, or Eve?"

[Abelian75]

There is an odd amount of vitriol in this thread.

[cevik]

For me that was hitting the first quest that required a group which made me face some of the real flaws in the game as well as the idea of playing with Barrens chat rejects that make up the AOC player community.

Wait, so we've moved beyond "Zomg AoC is broken" to "Zomg, some people who play mmogs suck, so AoC sucks!1!"?

Interesting.

[Falconeer]

Well, to be fair she didn't say "it sucks, I quit!". But to a certain extent, she said "it requires to group every now and then? I quit!".
And that could be AoC's own fault. When they let you play totally solo for 40 levels, you get used to it.

[sam, an eggplant]

Yes, I read and enjoy the quest text. Lore doesn't excuse shitty gameplay. It didn't in LOTRO and it doesn't here. Bear uterus collection quests are unacceptable.

[Numtini]

Well, to be fair she didn't say "it sucks, I quit!". But to a certain extent, she said "it requires to group every now and then? I quit!".
And that could be AoC's own fault. When they let you play totally solo for 40 levels, you get used to it.

Actually my point was more of a meta-issue about lovers and haters in MMOs and that something pushes you over the edge and suddenly you need to face how screwed up game X is, which is what creates a "hater." I think it's normal to have that kind of division. It's just human nature. For me, it wasn't that I needed a group, I actually prefer to group. (The best part about being a raider in EQ2 is logging in and the sound of that group invite from my guild before my UI even loads.) What happened was needing a group suddenly hit me with half a dozen different major problems and no longer allowed me to ignore them, which pushed me over some emotional line where I just couldn't pretend the game wasn't as screwed up as it is.

Or very specifically, I needed to switch instances to get that group which made me examine in ways meaningful to me that there were many different instances, not just two; that there was an undocumented change in the patch that required getting to a rezpad to change instances; that I needed to change instances myself because of an unfixed bug that didn't allow group leaders to summon you to their instance; that the fastest way to that rezpad was to swim up a waterfall; and finally that given the asshat comments in the chat which you need to watch because the LFG system is either incomprehensible or doesn't really work; that on the whole, the people I was seeing in game were not people I really wanted to group with--more like the kind of people I wanted to involuntarily sterilize.

It wasn't one issue, it was one issue which triggered an examination of maybe a dozen different small dissatisfactions that I had mostly paved over in my mind.

[Miasma]

I've had a lot of fun in WoW but AoC is currently much more entertaining.  There is no reason to devote yourself to one MMO and rabidly attack any other.  When lich king comes out I will definitely go back and have fun for those ten levels, then I'll quit again because the WoW endgame is the worst kind of grind I have ever experienced.  All you do is run the same dungeons or battlegrounds again over and over until you can purchase an item that is 5% better than your current one, then you do it again and again forever.  I don't mind timesinks buy by God theirs are just so mind numbing.

I went back into WoW for the first time in a few weeks to clear out any mail before my sub expires and after playing so much AoC the graphical difference really hit me.  It looked like a child's game, something you would buy a ten year old niece or nephew you don't know very well for their birthday.

[cevik]

Or very specifically, I needed to switch instances to get that group which made me examine in ways meaningful to me that there were many different instances, not just two; that there was an undocumented change in the patch that required getting to a rezpad to change instances; that I needed to change instances myself because of an unfixed bug that didn't allow group leaders to summon you to their instance; that the fastest way to that rezpad was to swim up a waterfall; and finally that given the asshat comments in the chat which you need to watch because the LFG system is either incomprehensible or doesn't really work; that on the whole, the people I was seeing in game were not people I really wanted to group with--more like the kind of people I wanted to involuntarily sterilize.

To be fair, the rezpad change was in the patch notes.

Beyond that, perhaps it's a "too each his own" type issue, but to me the multi-instance thing is one of the best things to happen in a mmog.  I can escape retards if I want to, if something is "camped" or someone is using a resource that I need (i.e. The Demon in the Tree) I can just pop into a new instance.  If the mob I need is gone, again I can pop into a new instance and look (instead of just standing where it spawns and waiting).  There are a lot more benefits than drawbacks from my perspective, I've yet to run into an "empty" instance, they all have various people running around in them, but I've also yet to run into an "overcrowded" instance, which is something that often happens in other games.  Of course I'm not an "immersion" guy, I find it kind of odd that people have no problems suspending their disbelief when I summon a horde of undead minions to follow me and do my bidding, but the moment a new instance of the map appears it's over.  ;) 

As far as retards in online video games, welcome to the internet, the next stop on our tour will be Hamster Dance, don't worry we'll eventually catch you up to 2008, though it may take awhile.  I bet you'll really like All Your Base Are Belong to Us part of the tour!

[Numtini]

To be fair, the rezpad change was in the patch notes.

Just went back and checked, nope, it's in the player thread on undocumented changes and a couple of player threads complaining about it, but not the official notes.

[Venkman]

It kills immersion

I've long since gotten accustomed to assuming people mean to add "to them" at the end of everything they post on the web. Because otherwise I'd have to keep complaining about these sort of unilateral pseudo-representative assertions. Anyone who's played EQ1 or DAoC is not overly aggravated by the zoning, unless it's considered in the context of other stuff they don't like.

However, I do agree with the assertion many of us have that in general, instancing is done wrong.

If lot of players get a feeling after 40 that there isn't anything to do, maybe that's poor world design?

It's important to separate "game design" from "world design" in a sub-topic including immersion. Good world design is a fundamental part of what WoW because they designed their worlds around the game being played. Whereas something like UO or SWG were designed specifically to engender "world" first, contrived content and advanced gates second. UO was due to legacy worlds from prior Ultimas. SWG was largely IP based. But both to me were FAR more immersive as worlds than WoW ever will be, because it's too conveniently designed to maximize the fun. And that's fine because it makes the game more fun for more people.

AoC even with WoW's graphics engine would piss off a lot of people for not being so silver-spoon-y with the content. But it is there for people who may be seeking something a bit different, something so less cleanly delivered. Now, whether that was Funcom's intent or they just didn't have the talent to do it like Blizzard is another topic

AoC is not nearly as contrived as CoX. And it's not nearly as open as UO. But like a bunch of other things, it's at least trying something that a just-copy-WoW wouldn't.

Instead, it either is worth playing therefore you go with it or it sucks rocks and not worth playing

This. And this is why I mentioned earlier in this thread that AoC launched at the exact right time, between way-too-slow Blizzard and WAR.

[Lakov_Sanite]

It kills immersion

I've long since gotten accustomed to assuming people mean to add "to them" at the end of everything they post on the web. Because otherwise I'd have to keep complaining about these sort of unilateral pseudo-representative assertions. Anyone who's played EQ1 or DAoC is not overly aggravated by the zoning, unless it's considered in the context of other stuff they don't like.

However, I do agree with the assertion many of us have that in general, instancing is done wrong.

AoC even with WoW's graphics engine would piss off a lot of people for not being so silver-spoon-y with the content. But it is there for people who may be seeking something a bit different, something so less cleanly delivered. Now, whether that was Funcom's intent or they just didn't have the talent to do it like Blizzard is another topic

Instead, it either is worth playing therefore you go with it or it sucks rocks and not worth playing

This. And this is why I mentioned earlier in this thread that AoC launched at the exact right time, between way-too-slow Blizzard and WAR.

What does this even mean, silver spoony with content? Every single quest in aoc puts an X or a dot on a map literally telling you the exact spot where you will find your goal and nearly drags you by the arm to get there. I'm not sure there is any game made that can be more silver-spoony(we need a better term) than aoc. Don't say you can turn the x's off to make things more fun, i can also play one handed to make them more fun but that's not really the design of the game.

Aoc is certainly, 100% easier than wow though I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing and while the zones are more photo-realistic they are just as built around the game as wow is. Every spot in aoc is meant for something, a spawn or an item. Doing every quest gaurantees that you will see all of a given zone(im assuming this continues past 50) every valley was built with these quests in mind and it shows and you know what this isn't bad at all.

The x's though, good god that was dumb of them. The problem isn't the x's themselves but the metric-fuckton of useless quests "go kill 15 soldiers" now "go kill 15 of the same type of soldiers in another spot" then "grab 15 of these" "touch Y number of barrels at location Z" I'm not sure there are more than a handful of quests in the entire game that aren't repetitive bullshit.  the quest text does not make them better quests it just adds flavor and even then a lot of the quests don't have that great writing, they got lazy on a lot of them.

Someone should make a chart but i will say the questing to level ratio in aoc is probably higher than any other game and this isn't a good thing. I would rather have a well scripted or just well written destiny quest that by taking all day to complete gives me a level than 10 meaningless kill quests to do the same thing. 

AoC is fast paced, it's fun to actually play and tortage was the best example because you felt like you were doing something, moving forward. Then you get into places like the field of the dead 

[Threash]

I think part of the problem with the perceived lack of content in conan is that its very easy to do higher level stuff so you might miss out on whole zones more appropiate to your level and skip right to the stuff that was supposed to get you through the dry spots.

[cevik]

To be fair, the rezpad change was in the patch notes.

Just went back and checked, nope, it's in the player thread on undocumented changes and a couple of player threads complaining about it, but not the official notes.

Touche.

[Venkman]

i will say the questing to level ratio in aoc is probably higher than any other game and this isn't a good thing. I would rather have a well scripted or just well written destiny quest that by taking all day to complete gives me a level than 10 meaningless kill quests to do the same thing.

Ironically, I've done nothing but the Destiny quest line save for the two (so far) periods where they push you to the Day side to level up some more. This is either because they didn't tune the Destiny quest XP/level thing right or because they don't want you to spend all your time in single-player. That to me feels odd though. The original intent was 1-20 being entire solo and then once you hit 20, you could roll up any other class and start at 20 (thus meaning you only needed to do 1-20 once every). I'd much prefer that personally. The Destiny quest lines are different by archetype but cover the same territory you memorized the first time you did it for all the running you did on it.

Per capita, I'd wager very much that there are more quests per level in WoW than AoC though, by an order of magnitude. AoC and WoW are sort of inverted in this regard. In AoC, players start in one place and spread out. In WoW players start all over the place and then funnel. I prefer the WoW method because it includes the ample instancing to keep the asshats out. However, AoC falls down mostly because of the afforementioned not-originally-intended repeated 1-20 game.

So we agree. I too would much rather have a well-scripted storyline* of a single long quest line than having to bounce from zone to zone doing exactly the same Kill X, Kill X+, Kill Boss. WoW has a LOT of that, but the pacing was good enough to not bother me until I tried alts.

* accepting that "well-scripted" is in the context of MMOs as they exist.

[Abelian75]

I think part of the problem with the perceived lack of content in conan is that its very easy to do higher level stuff so you might miss out on whole zones more appropiate to your level and skip right to the stuff that was supposed to get you through the dry spots.

Not a bad point.

[K9]

Sunwell gear looks like so much arse :(

[sinij]

This is first sign that market is maturing. In another 5 years PvE-only mmorpgs will go the way silent movies went.

[Brogarn]

This is first sign that market is maturing. In another 5 years PvE-only mmorpgs will go the way silent movies went.

I know far more people who are completely against playing PvP than people who are for it. So, I seriously doubt your prediction.

[Signe]

I don't know.  PvE only, no choice for any sort of PvP, not even duels or BGs?  I can see that sort of MMORPG being mostly phased out in favour of those with a choice. 

[sam, an eggplant]

Every dikuclone will have some form of consensual PvP from now on. Is that really up for debate?

[Brogarn]

I guess I was thinking all or nothing. No PvE just PvP, which on a re-read isn't what was said. Ya, I can see there being PvP in every MMO from now on.

[tmp]

This is first sign that market is maturing. In another 5 years PvE-only mmorpgs will go the way silent movies went.

How is AoC sign of it, exactly? Thought it had plenty PvE servers with PvP limited to the yet-to-be-seen city sieges... and it's rather early to tell how their PvP servers shape up.

[Lakov_Sanite]

This is first sign that market is maturing. In another 5 years PvE-only mmorpgs will go the way silent movies went.

How is AoC sign of it, exactly? Thought it had plenty PvE servers with PvP limited to the yet-to-be-seen city sieges... and it's rather early to tell how their PvP servers shape up.

AoC's pvp system right now is no different from wow. open pvp servers? check. battlegrounds? check. City seiges? not in. Now I'm not saying it has no potential to grow and rather aoc may be more FUN pvp than wow but it's certainly not different from wow.

[Surlyboi]

Yeah! How can AoC be different when WoW invented PvP?]

[sinij]

My guess is that popularity of AoC due to two things:

1) Promised PvP -lots of WoW first-timers maturing into PvPers and wanting more
2) WoW got stale - I don't know what Blizzard doing with all this money but they are surely not putting any of it back into the game

[tazelbain]

Propping up a worthless company like Vendi is expensive.

[schild]

My guess is that popularity of AoC due to two things:

1) Promised PvP -lots of WoW first-timers maturing into PvPers and wanting more

You are such a fucking one trick pony.

[UnSub]

My guess is that popularity of AoC due to two things:

1) Promised PvP -lots of WoW first-timers devolving into PvPers and wanting more

 

[Numtini]

I wonder if AOC has tapped into a desire from WOW players to move onto a "big boy" game.

[Ratman_tf]

Propping up a worthless company like Vendi is expensive.

That plus you can't just throw money at problems. Not until we have the tech to duplicate talent and download it into people's brains.