AoC - 400.000 players (27.05.08)

[waylander]

I hit level 61 last night, and we had our first member hit 70 yesterday morning. We're on a full PVP server, but its remarkably tame considering past games with FFA PVP environments.

Quick observations:

The Bad

1.
They need further client optimization. Even on rigs above the recommended settings its a toss up on FPS performance. I cann't see how even 48vs48 battles are feasible at this time.  I have a core2duo, 4 gigs of ram, a GF8800GT card, and at times I drop down to 12 FPS for no apparent reason.

2.
Quests should be repeatable.  After you've done a quest, there's 0 incentive to want to help others do theirs. They also involve a lot of running around, and should be more rewarding.

3.
Loot drops are pretty bad.  When you help lowbies level (apprentice someone within 10 levels of yourself), they get no loot they can use either. Loot tables need serious adjustment, and items should have a level range (+/- 10 levels) to match with the apprentice system.

4.
Travel is pretty rough. People have taken to dying on purpose just to help them travel through a zone faster.  Personally I think the rez pads should be used as a teleport system, and you should be able to click one to teleport to a location within the zone. The cost of a horse is ridiculous, and I hear you have to waste a talent point to learn the skill too.

5.
When people are learning a new game, they should be given free respecs. Money is tight in AOC, and the cost to respec gets very expensive very quickly. IMHO they should give 3 free respecs, and then 1 free one each major patch.

The Good

1.
Because you can hurt other people outside your group with spells (at least on PVP servers), it forces you to have to pay close attention to detail when coordinating multiple battle teams. You can't go blindly charging in blasting AOE's like in previous siege games (DAOC/SB) or you'll kill your guildmates.

2.
The classes are fun. Healers flat out suck in other games because healing or buffing is all they do. AOC healers will heal, cc, and nuke well enough to where you can consider them a threat. It makes the class more fun to play, and HOT's (heals over time) create a different level of strategy in PVE/PVP encounters.

3.
There are plenty of instance adventure zones for players to enjoy solo or with a group. They can be found in the main cities as well as the adventure areas.

4.
The game is viable for both solo and group based character advancement. Solo'ing will take a little longer, but not obscenely longer like past games.

5.
The quest lines are actually pretty interesting, and there are tons of quests to do. The good thing about questing is that you can see where the quest NPC is, where your objective is, and you don't waste a lot of time wandering around like you did in past games.

6.
The apprentice system is a great concept. Basically you can group with someone 10 levels higher or lower than yourself, and still contribute something to the group while getting good exp.  The only problem I see here is when the game is older, and people aren't leveling so much. Under those circumstances, newbies or alts will have to solo/group it to 70 before anyone can really help them.

7.
Player cities are cool, and they provide benefits to guild members. It would be nice if there were NPC's in each zone that allowed you to access your guild city though.


Overall AOC's been a fairly good game with a decent launch. I think with a few tweaks here and there that they'll be able to hold on to most of the original subscribers at release, but right now their biggest obstacle is getting the game running decently on a wider range of PC specs.

[FatuousTwat]

You can skip the entire destiny quest, as the beginning or between each arch is the option (Talk to bar NPC's). However skipping it means you get nothing, nada, zip.

No items/cash, or that as well as no exp?

[Mrbloodworth]

You can skip the entire destiny quest, as the beginning or between each arch is the option (Talk to bar NPC's). However skipping it means you get nothing, nada, zip.

No items/cash, or that as well as no exp?

NOTHING.

[Evildrider]

You can skip the entire destiny quest, as the beginning or between each arch is the option (Talk to bar NPC's). However skipping it means you get nothing, nada, zip.

No items/cash, or that as well as no exp?

NOTHING.

Boo... i want something that lets me skip the first 20 levels, and start at level 20.

[Numtini]

They should have stuck with the whole solo to 20 thing.

[WindupAtheist]

Maybe for the veteran crowd. My point was that LotRO didn't fail as was implied, it merely niched itself as a super-casual Diku.

Come on, who are we trying to bullshit?  LotRO was a flop.  The fact that almost none of these games get unplugged doesn't mean that they're almost all successful.  Turbine acquired what was looked upon as a Holy Grail of IP for the genre, developed an A-list game around it, had at least one executive talking smack about competing with WoW, and then ended up with about as many subscribers as EQ1 or CoX are still limping along with years after their primes.

[Numtini]

Come on, who are we trying to bullshit?  LotRO was a flop.

Honestly, I'd have to agree. It probably makes money, though with the amount of venture that Turbine has eaten in the past few years I'm not certain of that. But for the franchise and the amount of cash people have tossed at Turbine, ending up a little below the three years older EQ2 (itself considered a failure) isn't I think what they were looking for.

Conan has an incredible start, but I just don't see it building on it. I play the game and I have a really good time. But when I think of all there is missing from it, how clue free the devs seem to be, and the limited content, I just can't see how they can successfully build on this. If this had maybe 50% more content, all the quality of life stuff, and was bug-free, I could see it easily hitting a million. But with all that's done and funcom's apparent inability to address so many issues after a development cycle this long, I see it fading not growing.

[Tebonas]

I won't play AoC beyond the initial month. Lotro is way prettier on my system, and flop or no, the super-casual niche seems to be my favourite place.

[Tarami]

And on my part, I'm fairly convinced LotRO was a moderate success for Turbine, despite the lukewarm subscription levels. They recently received more venture which I find unlikely to have happened if LotRO, being their most recent game, was a financial flop. We can only speculate. Thing is, it seems that for a game to succeed beyond EQ2/LotRO/EvE levels, it needs to actively rob WoW of subscriptions which no game has done yet. Being on top has, as always, intrinsic advantages. LotRO got as many subscriptions as it could without hitting that critical mass.

As for Conan, I think it's too early to say anything. Speculation without a confirmed patch schedule is like playing darts wearing a blindfold.

[amiable]

I'm playing LOTRO right now with my wife and some real-life friends.  Even though I think the game is in many ways superior to WoW, I would still have to agre that based on subscription numbers it is a flop.

Having said that, they have made it into a wonderful little flop.  The character outfit and housing system is terrrific.  They have a lot of little touches you would never expect.  They do suffer from a linear storyline and a lack of non-grind content, although they are pretty good about putting in new zones/content on a regular basis.

What is best about the game is the stability and graphics, its not cartoony,but it is not too hard on older systems either.  It is incredibly stable and I only have trouble in large PvP contests (and even then not so much, and thats with hundreds of folks running around.  Hopefully AoC and WAR can achieve the same.

[Venkman]

They should have stuck with the whole solo to 20 thing.

You still can with the Destiny quests, because at Night, it is a solo game.

It's if you choose to not bother with the Destiny line that you're dumped back into the massive.

[Nija]

You still can with the Destiny quests, because at Night, it is a solo game.

Riddle me this.

If I'm a mage, and I'm in the night quests, why are most of the loot drops stuff I cannot use?

They put absolutely zero thought into this game.

[Mrbloodworth]

You still can with the Destiny quests, because at Night, it is a solo game.

Riddle me this.

If I'm a mage, and I'm in the night quests, why are most of the loot drops stuff I cannot use?

They put absolutely zero thought into this game.

Because most of the rewards given at the end OF THE SOLO QUESTS are better and specifically for your class.

They put an asston of thought into this game.

[Nija]

No, the only reason they gave you class-specific rewards for the end of the night quest is because you're going to be wearing those items for the next 20 levels!

They should do it all or none. Make it so the warrior NPC drops all of his shit, so you can pick through it, or he only drops shit that is relevant to you - as far as single player night missions go.

[Mrbloodworth]

uh, what?

Do quest = Get reward.

[WindupAtheist]

EQ2/LotRO/EvE levels

Nitpick:  While Eve is in roughly the same bracket in terms of subscriptions (although well above LOTRO and EQ2) it's not fair to compare them.  Eve really is the little game that could, having slowly built to success from obscurity, as opposed to being a hyped-up flop.  I know it doesn't alter your point at all, that's why I labeled it a nitpick.

[Tarami]

I believe Nija is referring to the drops that mini-bosses in the night quests drop, such as the ring from the final battle and similar. To which I agree, to an extent.

Nitpick:  While Eve is in roughly the same bracket in terms of subscriptions (although well above LOTRO and EQ2) it's not fair to compare them.  Eve really is the little game that could, having slowly built to success from obscurity, as opposed to being a hyped-up flop.  I know it doesn't alter your point at all, that's why I labeled it a nitpick.

True enough. I would elaborate on some points, but it has mostly been said and this is not the place. 

[Venkman]

It's an itemization thing. You get buried in useless drops from the Day side, and may be lucky enough to get useful items from the Night. And after that luck, it depends on the class you chose.

[Furiously]

I'm pretty impressed with how sold-out it is locally.

I'm still planning on waiting 3 weeks before I buy to see if people are still playing.

[Xanthippe]

Believe me, there are sooooooooo many sheep who see themselves as wolves that we don't give a fuck if one carebear ever sets foot on one of our servers.

Mordred.

[Nebu]

Believe me, there are sooooooooo many sheep who see themselves as wolves that we don't give a fuck if one carebear ever sets foot on one of our servers.

Mordred.

It's funny that you mention Mordred.  It was proof that, on some level, pvp servers are more about mentality than ability.  The best played groups in DAoC rarely (if ever) came from the pvp servers.  So while people love to comment on how hardcore they are to play on pvp servers, it seldom translates into higher quality pvp gameplay. 

[Slayerik]

Believe me, there are sooooooooo many sheep who see themselves as wolves that we don't give a fuck if one carebear ever sets foot on one of our servers.

Mordred.

It's funny that you mention Mordred.  It was proof that, on some level, pvp servers are more about mentality than ability.  The best played groups in DAoC rarely (if ever) came from the pvp servers.  So while people love to comment on how hardcore they are to play on pvp servers, it seldom translates into higher quality pvp gameplay. 

Yeah because PvE servers have all the cutting edge PVP guilds on them.  I'm not sure if you think that is true today or not, or maybe this is just bizarro world again.

[Nebu]

Yeah because PvE servers have all the cutting edge PVP guilds on them.  I'm not sure if you think that is true today or not, or maybe this is just bizarro world again.

The best 8v8 groups in DAoC were all from PvE servers.  It wouldn't surprise me to see this in other games as well.  Wanting to avoid mouthbreathers doesn't mean that you're bad at PvP by the way.  It means that you wish to dictate how your time gets spent. 

[Brogarn]

I avoid PVP servers because they make no RP sense whatsoever. If I'm standing in front of a guard or other witness with some asshat bashing my skull in, there should be repercussions within the game world. I had that happen to me on a few occasions on both of the 'dreds and just finally gave up. It was, at that point, no long an RPG but an FPS and that's not what I wanted to play. I far and vastly prefer DAoC's RvR. Both siege and 8v8 were fun and made sense within the virtual world and I was allowed to play PvE at my leisure. Good stuff there.


edited because English is hard.

[Slayerik]

Yeah because PvE servers have all the cutting edge PVP guilds on them.  I'm not sure if you think that is true today or not, or maybe this is just bizarro world again.

The best 8v8 groups in DAoC were all from PvE servers.  It wouldn't surprise me to see this in other games as well.  Wanting to avoid mouthbreathers doesn't mean that you're bad at PvP by the way.  It means that you wish to dictate how your time gets spent. 

How can you prove any of that, even remotely? Sounds liek another PvE dude generalization to me. The main logic though, to me, that would lean towards you being correct is sheer numbers...When you have a hundred groups of 8 on PvE servers as opposed to ten coming from PvP servers, chances are most of the top ten would be from the PvE side.

[HaemishM]

And on my part, I'm fairly convinced LotRO was a moderate success for Turbine, despite the lukewarm subscription levels. They recently received more venture which I find unlikely to have happened if LotRO, being their most recent game, was a financial flop.

You'd think that, yet somehow they got venture capital AND two big fantasy licenses (LOTRO and DDO) when their last release (AC2) had been a critical, technical and financial flop of epic fail proportions. Never underestimate the desperation of venture capitalists.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Yeah because PvE servers have all the cutting edge PVP guilds on them.  I'm not sure if you think that is true today or not, or maybe this is just bizarro world again.

The best 8v8 groups in DAoC were all from PvE servers.  It wouldn't surprise me to see this in other games as well.  Wanting to avoid mouthbreathers doesn't mean that you're bad at PvP by the way.  It means that you wish to dictate how your time gets spent. 

How can you prove any of that, even remotely? Sounds liek another PvE dude generalization to me. The main logic though, to me, that would lean towards you being correct is sheer numbers...When you have a hundred groups of 8 on PvE servers as opposed to ten coming from PvP servers, chances are most of the top ten would be from the PvE side.

Aren't you invalidating your own argument here? Yes if all teams were EQUAL it would matter which server had the majority of players entering a tournemant because by sheer odds the winners would most likely be from a pve server. If you are saying however that pvp server players are in general better at pvp than it shouldn't matter how many pve server teams enter, the pvp server teams should have a clear and distinct advantage and skill which would propel them to victory.

Having a million americans in a race doesn't lower the chances of one kenyan winning it.

From my own experience he's right though, as much as pvp players want to consider themselves hardcore I have seen them routinely get stomped by pve groups in other games that allow x-server pvp.

in short server choice != pvp skill.



get over yourself.

[Nija]

ugh, as much as pvp players want to consider themselves hardcore I have seen them routinely get stomped by pve groups in other games that allow x-server pvp.

in short server choice != pvp skill.

Was the gear equal?

[shiznitz]

[When you have a hundred groups of 8 on PvE servers as opposed to ten coming from PvP servers, chances are most of the top ten would be from the PvE side.

Your assertion is only right if success is random.*  If success is random, then you are wrong about PvP being skill-based. You lose two ways.

*If I pull 1,000 men off the streets of NY and ask them to play one set against Andy Roddick, he is going to beat them all.

[Lakov_Sanite]

ugh, as much as pvp players want to consider themselves hardcore I have seen them routinely get stomped by pve groups in other games that allow x-server pvp.

in short server choice != pvp skill.

Was the gear equal?

A valid argument and one often brought up "pvp players have a harder time getting gear because of A. other players or B. Not as much interest in pve"  I can at least say in the case of wow, where all dungeons are instanced and therefore only hard to get to(summoning stones and warlocks make it even easier) that many pvp players have just as good gear if not better than some pve servers or conversely server choice != pvE skill.  Many pvp servers on wow hold the forefront of content pve-wise and that is a proven fact.

[Tarami]

You'd think that, yet somehow they got venture capital AND two big fantasy licenses (LOTRO and DDO) when their last release (AC2) had been a critical, technical and financial flop of epic fail proportions. Never underestimate the desperation of venture capitalists.

Never underestimate their greed, either.

[Slayerik]

Yeah because PvE servers have all the cutting edge PVP guilds on them.  I'm not sure if you think that is true today or not, or maybe this is just bizarro world again.

The best 8v8 groups in DAoC were all from PvE servers.  It wouldn't surprise me to see this in other games as well.  Wanting to avoid mouthbreathers doesn't mean that you're bad at PvP by the way.  It means that you wish to dictate how your time gets spent. 

How can you prove any of that, even remotely? Sounds liek another PvE dude generalization to me. The main logic though, to me, that would lean towards you being correct is sheer numbers...When you have a hundred groups of 8 on PvE servers as opposed to ten coming from PvP servers, chances are most of the top ten would be from the PvE side.

Aren't you invalidating your own argument here? Yes if all teams were EQUAL it would matter which server had the majority of players entering a tournemant because by sheer odds the winners would most likely be from a pve server. If you are saying however that pvp server players are in general better at pvp than it shouldn't matter how many pve server teams enter, the pvp server teams should have a clear and distinct advantage and skill which would propel them to victory.

Having a million americans in a race doesn't lower the chances of one kenyan winning it.

From my own experience he's right though, as much as pvp players want to consider themselves hardcore I have seen them routinely get stomped by pve groups in other games that allow x-server pvp.

in short server choice != pvp skill.



get over yourself.

From your own experience means shit to me, no offence. You've probably never played a PVP+ game in your life.

Nija makes a pretty good point though, but mine was basically when there is a basic skill cap you can reach in a 8 vs. 8 PVP type setup, the side with 10 to 1 odds will win a heavily paper-rock-scissors type match.

Anyways, if you guys wanna say people from PVP servers suck at PVP compared to those from PVE servers...I'm over it.

[Brogarn]

What they're saying is that playing on an FFA server does not necessarily make you a better PvP'er. Not that PvE PvP'ers are superior. If you  the gankfest environment of an FFA server, go for it. I have no problems with that. It's the superior attitude that sticks in the rest of our craws.

[Nija]

It might just be that people who tend to frequent FFA servers (me) don't like large groups or large guilds.

In Meridian 59, I'd just duo.

In UO, if there was more than 5 friendlies on the screen I felt uncomfortable.

I've quit everything else very quickly or not tried it at all. (edit: or not play past beta) 8v8 was a clusterfuck and I never even considered playing DAOC.

I'm a minority in these games, but opinions are equally worthless across the board, so there it is.

Maybe other people on FFA servers share my feelings.

[Fordel]

Every so often the DaoC test server was converted to use the dred rule set. So to satisfy all there collective E-Peens the best (or most vocal) 8-man groups from the 'blue' servers and the Dreds would copy over to the test server and duke it out.


This almost always ended with the Dred teams being a lot less vocal about how awesome they were, especially after losing, even with having the 3 realm class spread 8-man against the single realm Blue server team.


The other thing that would happen would be a 8-man team from a blue server, would reroll onto the Dreds, spend a few months farming the old MagMell loop, be the top earner for their time spent, then either quit the game entirely or go back to their old server, deciding farming zergs IS actually more fun then ganking spawn campers and having ignore lists longer then dictionaries.