WotLK spoilerfication

[Musashi]

So pallies get their spells renamed, a bunch of the usual balance-jiggering, and no real paradigm shift.  Good, no reason for me to resub.

Oh, there is a 'heal by beating stuff' pally talent, but instead of being a way to make holy more combative, it's a ret talent.  /facepalm

I think the paradigm shifting was their acknowledgment that they're really looking into allowing players two (2) specs without a major penalty.  I haven't seen any actual indication that this feature is in yet though.

[Montague]

I was speaking more of Demonic Embrace's stamina increase is now 15% of your spirit, so instead of getting an additional say 120 stamina you'd be getting 27. That's almost 1k health at 70, and a big nerf. Now granted, all caster gear is now going to have Spirit on it since all caster classes now get benefit from it, but I don't see how any locks can be happy about this.

Ahh, I just read the patch notes above, I didn't look at the talent calculators yet.


EDIT:  If this change happened today, I'd lose 555 hp.  That sucks but isn't game breakingly bad.

EDIT2: But now all PVP builds will include soul link, so it's probably close to a wash.

Life tap is now based off your Spirit as well. 

This may actually be a good thing PVE-wise, as locks will have much better mana regen during long fights. PVP though is another matter, locks  survivability seem to be getting nerfed while other classes got buffed. We'll have to see though.

[cevik]

This may actually be a good thing PVE-wise, as locks will have much better mana regen during long fights. PVP though is another matter, locks  survivability seem to be getting nerfed while other classes got buffed. We'll have to see though.

I don't know, moving Soul Link down 20 talents (and only nerfing it 5%) still makes it close to a wash.  I suspect, as I said above, all pvp builds will include Soul Link.

If the changes happened today I'd have ~1500 more hp from soul link (assuming no healing at all) and 555 less hp from the loss of demonic embrace, so pretty much a survivability buff.  And a Haunt/SL build looks pretty nice to me if you want survivability.

EDIT:  And with Fel Vitality being further down the tree I can get another 3% hp as I move up the tier 2 talents, which is nice, because before you had to waste 3 points on tier 2 or take improved imp (which you never use!) if you were going demo.  So a Haunt/SL build gets that extra 3% health.

EDIT2:  The changes look to me like they are basically trying to make Warlock Tanks no longer work in raids so that DK's will be able to take over that role.  Sounds good to me!

[Fordel]

So pallies get their spells renamed, a bunch of the usual balance-jiggering, and no real paradigm shift.  Good, no reason for me to resub.

Oh, there is a 'heal by beating stuff' pally talent, but instead of being a way to make holy more combative, it's a ret talent.  /facepalm

They actually went out of their way to make it so Holy paladins could completely stay out of combat with ranged judgments.

My Big concern with holy (outside of it still having a frustrating playstyle, waiting to see how the rest of the new abilities pan out) is mana regen. It doesn't have any.

Combine that with the new role of being the Hand-Job bot, things aren't anywhere as awesome as I'd hope. I understand the theory behind the new Hand of Salvation, but in practice, It's just going to suck a whole bunch to use. Not only do you get to watch health bars, you get to watch everyone's threat bars. Double the fun!

[Montague]

This may actually be a good thing PVE-wise, as locks will have much better mana regen during long fights. PVP though is another matter, locks  survivability seem to be getting nerfed while other classes got buffed. We'll have to see though.

I don't know, moving Soul Link down 20 talents (and only nerfing it 5%) still makes it close to a wash.  I suspect, as I said above, all pvp builds will include Soul Link.

If the changes happened today I'd have ~1500 more hp from soul link (assuming no healing at all) and 555 less hp from the loss of demonic embrace, so pretty much a survivability buff.  And a Haunt/SL build looks pretty nice to me if you want survivability.

Thinking about it I'm more inclined to think it might be a wash. SL being more available but nerfed slightly, but locks wont be able to stack as much stamina as before (more item points used up in Spirit).  Haunt looks nice, but a cleansed or dispelled Haunt doesnt look like it will do very much for the mana used.

[Montague]

So pallies get their spells renamed, a bunch of the usual balance-jiggering, and no real paradigm shift.  Good, no reason for me to resub.

Oh, there is a 'heal by beating stuff' pally talent, but instead of being a way to make holy more combative, it's a ret talent.  /facepalm

My Big concern with holy (outside of it still having a frustrating playstyle, waiting to see how the rest of the new abilities pan out) is mana regen. It doesn't have any.

Holy never had any mana regen other than Illumination and BoW. (Illumination now works with Holy Shock too, btw).

Ret paladins are now mana batteries, along with Shadow Priests.  I dont think mana is going to be a problem for them.

[Fordel]

Maybe not in 25's, but I can easily see issues in 10's.

Maybe the idea is to use Hand of Sacrifice and have the other healers heal the Holy paladin for regen.

[kaid]

For the person asking about a str to spell power for prot spec actually they do have something but it is stamina to spell power rating. So in full tanking gear you should get an extra 200-300 spellpower easy just from that talent. I think you will still see some two handers and some plate with plus spell power on it but probably not anywhere near as much as you do in TBC.

[Merusk]

Ret has a similar spell based on ATK power rather than a straight stat.   Both lines give a max of 30% ATK/STA with different bonuses to heals.  Nifty stuff.

However, I think you're still going to be seeing plate with +spell power on it, because nether spec needs as much +int as a holy pally will to make their +spellpower talent as useful.   So we're still probably going to have at least 3 types of plate.  +int/spellpower, dps and tanking.  However, the 2 pally lines will now be able to make better use of the tanking and dps plate without needing to worry about +int/ spellpower as much.

[K9]

I was speaking more of Demonic Embrace's stamina increase is now 15% of your spirit, so instead of getting an additional say 120 stamina you'd be getting 27. That's almost 1k health at 70, and a big nerf. Now granted, all caster gear is now going to have Spirit on it since all caster classes now get benefit from it, but I don't see how any locks can be happy about this.

You know what, locks have way too much HP, seriously. I see locks with over 16K HP in battlegrounds, with only Fort and maybe GoTW. That's more than a fully epic Prot Warrior. I know it's a resource to you, but you guys need your HP toned down a bit.

[Merusk]

I agree.  I shouldn't have almost 10k hps and only 3 pieces of s2 armor.  The rest is greens, rep armor or low-level quest blues.  It's fucking sick.

[cevik]

I agree.  I shouldn't have almost 10k hps and only 3 pieces of s2 armor.  The rest is greens, rep armor or low-level quest blues.  It's fucking sick.

To be fair, you are really sacrificing in the +dmg department to get that hp.  It may be worth it for pvp (if you are wearing mostly greens) but honestly your +dmg is subpar for even a beginning level 70.

[K9]

Oh Hai

15K HP, 1.3K +dmg. And that's still with room for upgrades and missing a bunch of potential buffs.

It's a pure PvP build, but still silly.

[cevik]

Oh Hai

15K HP, 1.3K +dmg. And that's still with room for upgrades and missing a bunch of potential buffs.

It's a pure PvP build, but still silly.

His original point above was that is was "sick" that he could be in all greens and have 10k hp.  I pointed out to get that sta in all greens he sacrificed +dmg.

You then point me to a lock in all purps.

[Merusk]

I'm all of 2 weeks as a 70 on a new server, I'm going to have shitty spell damage.  The greens I have are from quests leveling up to this point and have been the best available +dam items.  I should have shitty hp as well, but don't.

[cevik]

I'm all of 2 weeks as a 70 on a new server, I'm going to have shitty spell damage.  The greens I have are from quests leveling up to this point and have been the best available +dam items.  I should have shitty hp as well, but don't.

The day I hit 70 I had real close to +600 dmg pretty easily, but I didn't have nearly the stamina you have.  I know this because I quit the game the day I hit 70 and came back and started playing again two weeks ago, so I had a little warlock time capsule.

I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm just saying that your 10k hp, while impressive, needs to be taken with a grain of salt.  You've sacrificed close to 200 +damage to get that 10k hp.

[K9]

His original point above was that is was "sick" that he could be in all greens and have 10k hp.  I pointed out to get that sta in all greens he sacrificed +dmg.

You then point me to a lock in all purps.

The point is that, if you compare locks (particularly demo locks) to equally geared toons, locks have a shit-ton more HP that's all. An equally geared mage would also only have 600 spell damage, but would have 2-3K less HP. That lock has 3K more HP than equivalent mages or priests, without even gemming for HP, he also has more HP than a kara-geared prot warr. So while I acknowledge that stamina is a resource for locks moreso than other cloth/caster classes, the HP disparity that exists is perhaps over the top.

[cevik]

An equally geared mage would also only have 600 spell damage, but would have 2-3K less HP.

The disparity exists, no one doubts it.  He linked to a "10k health lock in greens, zomg" and I pointed out that he was sacrificing +dmg to get that health.  A pretty significant amount of +dmg at that.

[Rasix]

Who gives a flying fuck?

[cevik]

Who gives a flying fuck?

People who like to whine about lock health, best I can tell.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Locks had a nerf bat coming for a long...long time, whether blizzard wasn't sure how to do it or they didn't want to hear the whining they made their decision. Honestly what do you think locks would have preferred more? nerfing hp to make them in line with other cloth casters or nerfing dps so that it would balance out with the bump in hp?

[Ironwood]

I demand more Hunter details.  What's going on with Exotic pets and Pet talents ?


Feed me seymour.

[Fordel]

I demand more Hunter details.  What's going on with Exotic pets and Pet talents ?


Feed me seymour.

http://www.maniasarcania.com/2008/07/18/wotlk-pet-talent-trees/ For the talents. Still don't know what Exotic Pets really means though.



Now some people are reporting that SoR/JoR also scale off of AP... which confuses my Protection gearing even more so. 

[Simond]

 

[Ironwood]

Oh dear God.

 

[Simond]

I'm guessing (hoping) that it's the two-person engineering mount, but judging from the fact that there's an alliance version as well it's probably BG- or quest-related.

[apocrypha]

 

WTF? WorldwarIIcraft? The goblin helicopters I struggled with but that's.. that's... just... 

Edit: please tell me it's a joke, yeah? Please?

[Merusk]

An equally geared mage would also only have 600 spell damage, but would have 2-3K less HP.

The disparity exists, no one doubts it.  He linked to a "10k health lock in greens, zomg" and I pointed out that he was sacrificing +dmg to get that health.  A pretty significant amount of +dmg at that.

Y'know, I just checked in game last night and I have 704 spelldam, so I dunno what the fuck that profile is missing. I must not have had the pet out or something.  Odd.

[Merusk]

I'm guessing (hoping) that it's the two-person engineering mount, but judging from the fact that there's an alliance version as well it's probably BG- or quest-related.

I think it's related to the destructible PVP zone. I seem to recall reading about the two person vehicles in one of the previews for that zone, but I can't remember where.

[Fordel]

That's awesome, I want one!

[Tannhauser]

That's actually a screenshot from the alpha of Universe of Starcraft.

[Lakov_Sanite]

It looks like that bike is in the forsaken town, odd.

Though as to the tech? I dunno, warcraft has always had steampunk/early industrial stuff. Sure you could say you always want things to remain quasi-medievil but to me it's just a natural progression of tech. Afterall if you are going to make magic grow, become more powerful and evolve you can do the same for tech and remember, it's still not as bad as goblin rocketships made out of wood.

[WindupAtheist]

At this point they'd have to turn the game inside out for me to want to play again.  I mean the bottom line is that every instance needs at least 3 jobs done (tank, heal, damage) and about 90% of everyone sitting LFG on any given night (including me) considers the first two to be stupid chores for someone else to do.

[Kitsune]

The dwarves have fucking tanks parked outside their city, a subway system covers a couple miles of underground tunnel between cities, and a network of trans-continental blimps ferry people around in the sky.  Plus, robots.  Motorcycles really aren't a stretch given how much we've already seen.

Really, the only thing that doesn't make sense in the world is that they haven't built a Roman-esque road network to make the most of their vehicles.

[apocrypha]

The dwarves have fucking tanks parked outside their city, a subway system covers a couple miles of underground tunnel between cities, and a network of trans-continental blimps ferry people around in the sky.  Plus, robots.  Motorcycles really aren't a stretch given how much we've already seen.

Really, the only thing that doesn't make sense in the world is that they haven't built a Roman-esque road network to make the most of their vehicles.

Good points, well made. Maybe this is the real subconscious reason I play Horde? :D

Edit: I have sausage-fingers!