Darkfall "Released"

[Salamok]

Has there ever been a game 2 weeks before release that has not even announced the system requirements?

The system requirements are as follows;

A. Not being a carebear
B. Waiting for this game for 7 years.
C. Hatred of WoW.
D. HARDCORE PVP'ER
E. Believing that this game, is robot rapture riding Jesus.  

you left out:

F. Being able to play it entirely in your mind.

[schild]

Robot rapture?

wat

[WayAbvPar]

All good robots go to silicon heaven.

[LC]

Robot rapture?

wat

I hope he meant robot raptor.

[schild]

The robot rapture sounds more exciting.

[sidereal]

[Venkman]

This is just Leonardo beating up Rocksteady in a Nintendo game 20 years ago. But if you transcribe it into MMO terms, suddenly it becomes this complex system of stuns, immunities, and knockbacks that would make a developer's head explode to think about because they've been too focused on making graphical MUDs and haven't learned a thing from real videogames.

This is partly true. But this is based on "MMOs" being defined by WoW. There's this impression that things haven't changed since WoW, but the reality is that the only games that could have been used as examples of such change were all in concept or full development before WoW hit the really big time. And these developers mostly stayed the course (or made the wrong course corrections), mostly because their core systems couldn't change. How can it when the initial concept discussions are "diku, but different".

Nobody's yet made a real video game into an MMO. DCUO could be the first, and that's only conceivable because they seem to be designing it for consoles first, porting to PC second. This is probably the best way to do it: start with a system that has such a limited UI you can't help by reinvent everything.

But we'll see how that goes...

[DLRiley]

The next revolutionary mmo will be an actually game with more than 10 people in game at any given time. It will most likely be a console to PC port and will have 10 million players three months after release and everyone will be scratching their heads wondering how this could be possible. But in the mean time here is a forum that believes darkfall is going to be robot raptor riding jesus;
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193732&page=21
http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230418&page=3

Several pages of laughter is guaranteed to follow after reading those threads.

[ashrik]

It's crazy what's going on in these places.

Oh it'll be more than that. Don't you understand- once DF gets released, nothing will ever be the same again. Nothing.

They'll say (type) it with all enthusiasm of a wide-eyed smiling cultist. The narrative being put forth now is that the mature and wise MMO gamers will flock to Darkfall, triggering a pokemon-esque evolution of the entire MMO genre. It will topple WoW, while being a small niche game simultaneously. Also, if you ever enjoyed Warcraft: fuck you.

It's fascinating. Am I really this bored? Yes I am. Off to the mmorpg forums.

[tmp]

Sure, as long you're a moron who implements super-fast weapons that do almost no damage, have absolutely no secondary negative effects (knockback, disorient) result from being shot, and then makes no attempt at all to balance any of this, so that "catching a steady stream of bullets with your fucking face for the entire battle" suddenly becomes a viable victory strategy. Quit being a condescending cunt.

Now now, no need to get all angry just because system from single player game made 20 years ago doesn't work perfect with something that involve more than one player and more than one way to deal damage.

Btw much simpler to just cap total incoming damage per second at whatever value. Then you can have the low per-hit but high hit rate weapons in your game without random people on the intrawebs calling you a moron, since these no longer break any of the fancy temporary immunity systems. (systems that become quite obsolete with such approach, too)

[Sophismata]

He's angry because idiots are making retarded inferences based off of DIKU games for a theoretical system that wouldn't be used in DIKU combat in the first place.

Well, that's why I'm angry. Well, not so much angry, as dissapointed.

[Signe]

It's fascinating. Am I really this bored? Yes I am. Off to the mmorpg forums.

Dude.  Some of us go over there sometimes but we don't actually talk about it. 

[tmp]

He's angry because idiots are making retarded inferences based off of DIKU games for a theoretical system that wouldn't be used in DIKU combat in the first place.

Well, that's why I'm angry. Well, not so much angry, as dissapointed.

Well i don't know, it seems that the original contribution was 'here is a system that could be used to nerf focus fire you stupid fucks, that's something other games did like 20 years ago'. The small catch being, the system in question wasn't actually made for that particular purpose, and not surprisingly falls flat on its face when applied with such goal in mind, as soon as the picture becomes just bit more complicated than 'one turtle/elf boy/whatever whacking the foozle'. Which is being pointed out. Which for some reason causes nerd rage rather than simple acknowledgment of the point.

And no, it doesn't have to be DIKU combat, like also pointed out. If the system can't handle both submachine guns and rocket launchers because one is low damage high fire rate and the other isn't... and getting shot with submachine gun makes the target immune to rockets... then might as well admit that system is best to be kept where it was originated, in single player games where there won't be more than one type of damage hitting the target at any given time.

[WindupAtheist]

Oh bite me already. It doesn't need to work presicely as described with no modifications in any hypothetical game you can think of. I explicity describe giving a half-second immunity versus a one-second attack cycle, make reference to melee combat, and some chucklehead has to go "What if the attack cycle is 6 rounds per second LOLOL and there's bazookas what then??" Then fucking do something different, obviously. If your game is going with FPS combat then you probably don't need to do anything since you've nerfed focus fire right out of the box by forcing people to aim rather than using a typical MMO auto-targeting system.

EDIT: Specifically, I do want to see MMO combat turn into arcade/action game combat, basically. (Yes I mean melee combat and not the combat in some hypothetical FPS MMO about sniping people with nuclear missiles from orbit, put your hand down Poindexter.) I want it to have a very simple flow where, for example, a guy who gets hit with a hammer falls over and can't be hit while he's down, or guys can't take another hit during their "getting hit" animation. I really don't want some clunky diku fight where "IMMUNITY" appears on someone's buff bar every time they get hit. I want kids on the forums bitching that half their swings pass through a guy when they gank him with too many attackers like the whole thing wasn't intended in the first place.

[Sophismata]

I want an MMO where the combat could make it an e-sport all on its own.

[tmp]

I want it to have a very simple flow where, for example, a guy who gets hit with a hammer falls over and can't be hit while he's down, or guys can't take another hit during their "getting hit" animation. I really don't want some clunky diku fight where "IMMUNITY" appears on someone's buff bar every time they get hit. I want kids on the forums bitching that half their swings pass through a guy when they gank him with too many attackers like the whole thing wasn't intended in the first place.

Hmm but then it's just difference in visual presentation (character animation vs icon) while the immunity mechanics remain just as fucked up -- the knockdown thing is stupid for rather obvious reasons, the ones that make games include 'diminishing return on cc' or whatever; and if you can't get hit (again) right after you got hit, then it still pushes people towards the slowest swing rate/highest hit damage weapons simply because it let's the largest amount of people chance to get their hit in and with each hit being heavy, that can destroy targets the fastest. It doesn't matter if they will do that with rocket launchers or two-hand swords or using melee character that happens to have the fighting style that has that particular combination of attack power/speed.

Srsly, if it's a game system then it will be welp, gamed. And those kids on forums won't be bitching about half of swings passing through. THey will be bitching about the moron developer that forces them into single playstyle with their harebrained mechanics (like they always do)

These old console games have resolved the problem of focus fire in much simpler way -- by limiting the number of participants to the point where it never becomes (much of) a problem in the first place.

[Sophismata]

Look, I get what your saying, but drop this idea you have of slow swing / high hit weapons, or fast swing / low hit weapons, or whatever, because they are an assumption you are making regarding a system that doesn't exist. Not every game normalises DPS and determines attack rate by weapon speed. And if they did, you could scale this whole invulnerability thing with weapon speed, making slower weapons grant longer periods of immunity. Or whatever - it doesn't actually matter for this conversation.

Personally, I'd handle focus fire a little differently, but that's neither here nor there.

[WindupAtheist]

Or trade off damage for reach instead of speed, or make the slow hard-hitting weapons so slow that you're open to being hit in return if you miss, or whatever. The point isn't that "THIS PARTICULAR MECHANIC IS THE END-ALL MECHANIC OF EVERYTHING, ALL GAMES MUST USE IT AND THANK ME IN THEIR CREDITS AND SUCK MY WANG." The point is simply that, as I said, real games figured out that letting you get curbstomped by enemies with no chance to react was lame right away and designed around it. MMO designers haven't done anything of the sort, by any mechanic.

[Lantyssa]

I want an MMO where DPS isn't the end-all be-all of combat.  Sheesh.

I've got 1% more than you, bitches! kekekekeke

[Venkman]

I want an mainstream big budget MMO where combat isn't the end-all be-all of the whole experience.

I'll be in the corner dreaming with the rest of you 

[DLRiley]

If I created a mmo-combat system I'll make it a cross between street fighter and guild wars. Now street fighter in the sense that I'm talking the basic things that are important in melee combat, reach, stuns, and attack frames. But I'll want it closer to Street fighter vs Capcom or Street fighter vs Marvel in balance and  . I want the reach of an attack to be important, something like a bring a spear vs a sword should have very important differences in combat, I want my attacks to have stopping power, if my attack lands before you block I should be allowed to hit you again without a fist coming out of no where thus combo's and individual attacks matter since each successful attempt to hit you allows me to do another attack without getting bitched smacked because some moron developer feels that a sword through the gut doesn't hinder your movement at all. And last but not least, how fast an attack is going should be very important, because fast attacks also help stun the opponent, but for a more basic reason. If I was using a 3 hit combo, and my first hit was a big slugger type that took a few frames for the whole animation to complete, I should if I was thinking about what you was doing be able to not only hit you with a attack that is fast, but interrupts your combo mid swing.

Guild Wars was actually inspired by Magic the Gathering, Guild Wars thought less about classes (though that was very important) but more about builds/templates and how they interact with each other. You can only carry 8 skills at any given time, this made template building VERY important and forced players to think of how each skill works together, unlike in other games where you can simple mash your hand at the keyboard and do relatively well since ALL the skills of your class was at your finger tips.

Thus deck building allows focus on combo's and inherent synergies between skills, rooting a game into fighter game type model is very important so that players feel like their in combat. As far as focus fire is concerned for on unless battles are determined with actions that require split second reaction time, your going to have problems with focus fire. Why doesn't 10 vs 1 isn't a major concern in a first person shooter is because you have less than a quarter of a second to decide how to deal with someone pointing a gun at your face. And if your decision at that moment in time is wrong your dead 1 second later. That's it, that's what makes a FPS work. You can't say "oh just make everyone aim their attacks" and expect focus fire go away if you keep the basic tenants of RPG combat the same (though I can say more accurately MUD). In RPG's death is not a matter of a fraction of a second decision but plenty of bad decisions stacked on top of one another. In other wise people live longer and when they die it's usually after they failed multiple times to prevent said death. Focus fire in an mmo simple removes the ability of the individual to prevent his own death. Whether be an action rpg or a turn based queing everyone to hit one target till it dies is way more efficient then letting everyone have their own personal duel. In which case your dealing with a simple fact that can't be changed, no amount of actions by a single player will negate the power of several players targeting him. This only changes slightly if death is a matter of a few decisions made in a fraction of a second, rather than multiple decisions made over several seconds.

Guild Wars of course has presented its own solutions, but keep in mind that this is strictly in the realm of one team vs another team. You have a class called the monk, the dedicated healer of the group, who can prevent a single target from dieing multiple ways. One is casting spells like protective spiirt. Protective spirit prevents the target from dieing from any sudden huge spikes of damage by keeping the protected target health at 10%. Thus attempting to fire at said target with as many people as possible is fruitless unless you remove the spell. Another way for the monk to protect you is simple healing more then the combatants. The spell that allows you to do this is Infuse, infuse takes away 50% of your health and multiplies it in order to heal the target. Say you have 600 health, multiple that by 2 = 600 heal. Thus if you can cast it at the exact moment a target would receive a sudden spike of damage you can heal him for more health than the target will receive damage. There are a bit more solutions Guild Wars has but there are in generally categorizes, Prot or Single Target Power Healing. But that's in a team setting where the max amount of opponents in guild wars was 12. Guild Wars never pretended to be about 1v1 duels.

[schild]

Stop talking.

[Rendakor]

Wall of text crits you for 9999! You die.

[Signe]

[Nonentity]

If I created a mmo-combat system I'll make it a cross between street fighter

I stopped right about there.

[Zzulo]

I just want a good MMOFPS

Like planetside, but without all the negative aspects. I want to head out into a sea of 500 guys in powerarmor, kill some mans, and then head back to base to have a futuristic beer with a random guy I just met. 

[Tmon]

I don't know what I want in an MMO mostly I know what I don't want.  Levels and rigidly defined unchangeable classes are one an two on the list though.





Edited to clean it up a bit.

[stray]

I could stay longterm in an mmo if I was allowed to do some of things I already like doing in games -- but didn't have to do uber catass shit to get there and finally enjoy it.

I don't care to explain though, because it isn't happening anyways. Ever.

[Signe]

As long as an MMO has hats and dancing, I can stay amused for months.

[stray]

Hats and dancing are about the only thing you can do without catassing, I guess. Lucky you.


I take that back -- Jump to Lightspeed was a swell idea. A bit too late though, and in an ironic way, the bits I didn't want to play (core of SWG) were so borked that somehow, it managed to be distracting from the part I did want to play (JtL). So in actuality, I want a sidegame that I like, and I want the main rpg/catass/grindage part to still be attractive to others even though I wouldn't lay a fucking foot in it myself. Heh

I'm possibly more screwed up than MMO designers.

[Tmon]

Hats are important, so is the ability to actually sit on chairs.

[Xuri]

Whether or not you can sit in chairs makes or breaks MMOGs. Look at WoW, for instance. You can sit in chairs there (and on some benches), and it has 11 gazillion subscribers! "Sitting in chairs" should be number one of the "features to implement"-list for any new and upcoming MMOG. Sitting in chairs = instant success! Can't fail, if you have that feature.

[Lantyssa]

Furthermore, SWG had sitting in chairs, but it resized you, so it was only okay.  Then they broke sitting in chairs, and the game TANKED.  Sitting in chairs is that important.

[UnSub]

One beta I've been part of had major arguments about how important sitting in chairs was.

Because, after all, you could sit in any chair in The Matrix Online and that game rocked, amirite?

[Hawkbit]

I'm pretty sure you couldn't sit in chairs in either Age of Conan or Warhammer. 

I think you're on to something here. 

Next up:  Does the ability to RP walk affect MMORPG success rates?