Darkfall "Released"

[Bzalthek]

Sooo, you're deliberately going around and trying your best to thin out the playerbase?  While I'm entirely unsurprised that a supposed "PvPer" seeks out fights he cannot lose, then has the nerve to boast about it on a public forum, I'm completely nonplussed at your behavior.  You even admit that the player probably won't last, and as a direct result of your own actions.

It baffles me, mainly because I fail to see the value of murdering everyone not in my tribe in a video game.  Other than being a jackass for the sake of jackassery.

This.  Just because you CAN kill the noob that just started playing doesn't mean you HAVE to kill the noob that just started playing.  Unless, of course, you're trying to repress dark childhood memories, then it's somewhat understandable.

[ashrik]

Hey I'm fine with that. If I'm bored after a month or two, then I've gotten a month or two of fun out of it.

To that end, I'm playing as the game-destroying monster that I said that this game would be populated with. I will become my own Frankenstein. They'd probably chase me out of town if everyone else wasn't doing it right next to me, too caught in their own fevered dreams of becoming a bandit or pirate or whatever.

But seriously, mining in the middle of enemy territory? That's asking for it. You guys wouldn't cry foul if a troll got ganked by the gates of Stormwind. It is not a short nor easy walk to get to another race's place. To do just that and then announce to the world that you're gathering things that are worth gold is all kinds of folly. Might as well post your low-sec mining schedule to the EVE forums. Just about (if not) everything you need can be gathered within the protective range of a tower.

[Vinadil]

Tada!  Ashrik has played the game and apparently understands.

This is not about boasting, it is about recalling game experiences.  Neither is it "school time for the young little PvP lover", as I am neither young nor a person who enjoys a game by making it unenjoyable for others.  The main reason I like PvP games is the same reason I enjoy Paintball over Lasertag... paintball carries more consequences for failure, so it causes you to play more intelligently.  And, I prefer paintball to, say war, because you don't actually DIE when you get hit.

Darkfall is much like EVE in its PvP design.  If you don't want to get killed by roaming bands of enemies you have two choices.  Fight close to the god-like NPC guard towers, or join a clan and hunt with them.  It is not my job to make a fun, entertaining experience for new players.  It was in beta (or at least I saw that as part of my job) and I offered as many suggestions as I could (including the much-maligned increase of guard towers throughout the world).  It "hurt" my chances as a roaming PvPer, but it helped make more of the world accessible to new players.  I also thought they should have put in a "rookie" chat channel like EVE did, and toss all new players into a Starter Clan... but they have not done that yet.

Also, though backdrop does provide much of the narrative I am currently enjoying I remarked that this will change over time.  I realize this.  That is when you add in the other factors, like winning and losing costs something.  During last nights PvP raid we lost 2 fully-geared guys.  Halfway into the evening we were WORSE off than when we began economically (lost a mount too).  With a couple of good finds and good wins we managed to come out ahead, but the fact is we could easily have lost half our force when we assaulted that Orc Town, along with all of that gear.  Perhaps gear will be meaningless in the future, but that future is still a good ways off, and as Ashrik said, if all the reasons I enjoy PvP here leave in a few months... then I will enjoy the few months and move on.

I don't understand the idea that everything in Darkfall has to be completely NEW and THE BEST in order for it to be worth playing.  This is not MMORPG, nor is it the Darkfall Forums.  We don't have to assume that just because people enjoy the game they are propping it up as the best thing ever.  For me, it is currently the best PvP experience available in a fantasy world.  80% of my guild disagrees with me, and that is cool... they are having their own PvP fun in WAR.  We can both be right because things like "fun" are so completely subjective. Or, I guess we could both be wrong because we are managing to have fun in poorly made games that have a high likelihood of failing...

[Draegan]

Ass lightning needs to be respected yo.

[schild]

Or, I guess we could both be wrong because we are managing to have fun in poorly made games that have a high likelihood of failing...

There has got to be a fat chicks joke to be made about this.

[ashrik]

hah my little force of 7 players got demolished deep within Mirdain territory and lost everything!

Slaughtered at that wilderness bank by a smaller group of 4 seriously decked out Furryboys. When the battle was clearly forfeit I managed to bank the best of my armor before falling to them.

I think I'm just looking at the game more like an online FPS with persistence as opposed to anything I recognize as an MMORPG.

Send a tell to Ashrik Tyr if you're online!

[sidereal]

I don't understand the idea that everything in Darkfall has to be completely NEW and THE BEST in order for it to be worth playing.  This is not MMORPG, nor is it the Darkfall Forums.  We don't have to assume that just because people enjoy the game they are propping it up as the best thing ever.  For me, it is currently the best PvP experience available in a fantasy world.  80% of my guild disagrees with me, and that is cool... they are having their own PvP fun in WAR.  We can both be right because things like "fun" are so completely subjective. Or, I guess we could both be wrong because we are managing to have fun in poorly made games that have a high likelihood of failing...

I don't think anyone is questioning whether you're having fun or your right to go have the fun while you can.  At least I'm not.  We're questioning the implication that Darkfall has introduced some secret sauce to make it fun when in fact the fun mostly just comes from the novelty.  Novelty is going to wear off, and if in fact that is the primary source of the fun, then it's a recommendation against investing any significant resources in the game, like the time it'd take to master it or gain character skill that won't matter in 3 months.

[Vinadil]

I don't think anyone is questioning whether you're having fun or your right to go have the fun while you can.  At least I'm not.  We're questioning the implication that Darkfall has introduced some secret sauce to make it fun when in fact the fun mostly just comes from the novelty.  Novelty is going to wear off, and if in fact that is the primary source of the fun, then it's a recommendation against investing any significant resources in the game, like the time it'd take to master it or gain character skill that won't matter in 3 months.

True, novelty is likely a big factor, but I am having a hard time remembering a source of entertainment where that is NOT a factor, even a large one.  Even in a game like Football that I enjoy watching if it were the same two teams playing on the same field in the same weather conditions with the same record every week... I would probably stop watching.  I suppose that is why I consider things like a large world backdrop meaningful to longevity.  The fact is where you are on the map matters, and you can choose where you want to be on the map.  And, right now the world population is such that we have not fought the same people more than twice on our outtings.  That will likely change over time too, but even then it will be like the NFL where we meet the same 8-10 teams over the course of 2 months.  Familiarity breeds its own narrative.

Perhaps narrative is a bigger factor to me than to most, I mean I gave CCP 5 months of subscriptions merely from reading the EVE WAR thread here... I don't even know if I was playing the actual game much at the time.

In any case, as I have said elsewhere, unless you have some friends in game or don't mind joining a mass recruit guild then this game likely is not worth the time/money invested (again much like EVE).  If you do have those sort of connections then your experience might be like a new recruit of ours who just joined the game yesterday, "I had a super fun time rollin out killing orks with you guys and the other guildies. i'm so glad that i joined the guild, the game would be very different without haveing some people to hook me up and show me the ropes. That and getting a mount and rolling out to pvp in the first few hours of game play. anyway back to work just wanted to say thanks."

But now I sound too much like a darkfall recruiter, so I will move on.

[Venkman]

To that end, I'm playing as the game-destroying monster that I said that this game would be populated with.

This.

Because anyone surprised by this self-fulfilling prophesy has a) not PvP'd much; nor, b) not played games entirely geared towards PvP.

DF was never going to be a structured RTS game where people are just fighting for fun between bouts of mining and home decorating. It's entirely Lord of the Flies, because it allows for the very behaviors most other developers designed out of their games. It'll probably never be huge, but as long as Adventurine doesn't screw it up too much, it can finally replace rose-colored memories of pre-Trammel UO and sb.exe in the pantheon of "the best PvP evar" discussions.

[lamaros]

This thread has gone into a strange place where the ones playing the game are making more sense than the ones who aren't. This should not be so!

[tmp]

There was no room for stories in WoW, very little in WAR... mostly because the backdrop repeats itself too much.  You can only tell the, "Hey remember that one arena match where we fought those 5 guys?" story so many times before people get confused or just stop caring.

WoW used to have open world PvP... just saying.

[Ossigor]

WoW used to have open world PvP... just saying.

WoW had/has no penalties for dying. You're missing the point he's trying to make. I don't want to say "Lawl you never played UO or EVE," but if you haven't, or any other game that actually has risk involved to PvPing (IE all of your loot on your persons) then you might not know the feeling he's talking about. The paintball analogy was a good way to put it. People play the game differently when you have something on the line; think about playing poker without real money.

[sidereal]

People play the game differently when you have something on the line;

Yes, it involves a lot more running.  The game breaks down to which side figures out it's overmatched first and, since there's something on the line, they run.  And you spend an hour pursuing them.

In games with less on the line, people are willing to stay and fight.

[tmp]

WoW had/has no penalties for dying. You're missing the point he's trying to make.

It could be because he's saying it's "mostly because the backdrop repeats itself too much" rather than "because dying did not matter". I've played EVE, i get the difference between death penalty and lack thereof, but it's simply not what he's saying. Whether what he's saying and what he's thinking is one and the same or two different things, that's another story.

[NiX]

When the battle was clearly forfeit I managed to bank the best of my armor before falling to them.

Honestly? Sure, I haven't played, but I can't be the only one reading this "BANK BANK BANK..awww fuck!" mechanic and thinking it's a piece of ass.

[DLRiley]

When the battle was clearly forfeit I managed to bank the best of my armor before falling to them.

Honestly? Sure, I haven't played, but I can't be the only one reading this "BANK BANK BANK..awww fuck!" mechanic being a piece of ass.

Isn't ALT+F4 so much easier...

[Rake]

To the guys who are playing the game, I appreciate your spending time to try and let us in on what it is you are enjoying in Darkfall.

It's hard to put into words what makes something good/better, but don't take the flack that you may receive too harshly and remember that they are probably jealous and confused, because people are dying to play with you, while they are wasting their time in some carebear, corporate loot grind that is going round in circles and getting nowhere and producing no memories worth reporting about.

[lamaros]

To the guys who are playing the game, I appreciate your spending time to try and let us in on what it is you are enjoying in Darkfall.

It's hard to put into words what makes something good/better, but don't take the flack that you may receive too harshly and remember that they are probably jealous and confused, because people are dying to play with you, while they are wasting their time in some carebear, corporate loot grind that is going round in circles and getting nowhere and producing no memories worth reporting about.

Awesome.

[Bzalthek]

To the guys who are playing the game, I appreciate your spending time to try and let us in on what it is you are enjoying in Darkfall.

It's hard to put into words what makes something good/better, but don't take the flack that you may receive too harshly and remember that they are probably jealous and confused, because people are dying to play with you, while they are wasting their time in some carebear, corporate loot grind that is going round in circles and getting nowhere and producing no memories worth reporting about.

It's like some poor twisted amalgamation of a circlejerk and a suck up that never should have been.  What afterbirth did you crawl out of?

[Delmania]

To the guys who are playing the game, I appreciate your spending time to try and let us in on what it is you are enjoying in Darkfall.

It's hard to put into words what makes something good/better, but don't take the flack that you may receive too harshly and remember that they are probably jealous and confused, because people are dying to play with you, while they are wasting their time in some carebear, corporate loot grind that is going round in circles and getting nowhere and producing no memories worth reporting about.

Or not. 

[Azaroth]

Darkfall is much like EVE in its PvP design.  If you don't want to get killed by roaming bands of enemies you have two choices.  Fight close to the god-like NPC guard towers, or join a clan and hunt with them.  It is not my job to make a fun, entertaining experience for new players.

Just one question here.

Doesn't EvE HAVE a design?

Now, I haven't played Darkfall myself (and have absolutely no plans to) - but to me, it seems like the feature list basically reads:

-Open PvP.

Everything that anyone has ever described as fun in Darkfall boils down to "And then we ganked and looted this guy and loolll and we totally went to their racial city and fought them". About the official feature list in their FAQs and on their site, basically everyone says that the majority of it, you know, doesn't exist.

And that's fine. But if there isn't significantly more to the game than that and you're all just enamored with it because it's Lord Of The Flies Online take whateverteen, then you're all just idiots.

If there ARE toys in the sandbox, please inform me. Because a sandbox without toys is just a bunch of retarded kids pissing on each other and laughing.

[Xurtan]

When the battle was clearly forfeit I managed to bank the best of my armor before falling to them.

Honestly? Sure, I haven't played, but I can't be the only one reading this "BANK BANK BANK..awww fuck!" mechanic and thinking it's a piece of ass.

Just wait until more people figure out that you can use a knockback to force the bank window closed. Outside of the newbie cities, this isn't really practical anyways. Wilderness banks are few and far between, and other than running into a few Orks at one, I have yet to see combat based around them.

[Mrbloodworth]

[Xurtan]

Everything that anyone has ever described as fun in Darkfall boils down to "And then we ganked and looted this guy and loolll and we totally went to their racial city and fought them". About the official feature list in their FAQs and on their site, basically everyone says that the majority of it, you know, doesn't exist.

It depends on which part you mean.

(Warning: Large block of text incoming. You have been warned. I basically took all of the features and answered them, slightly. Yes, I am very bored.  Honestly, I didn't see many things on the features that most games don't already have to some degree. This is, of course, only my personal opinion, and what I have experienced -thus far-.)

[Draegan]

Rake wins the thread for the day I think.

[Nebu]

Rake wins the thread for the day I think.

No.  Anyone that still resorts to the use of the word "carebear" can never win.  Anything. 

Someone that enjoys pve isn't a carebear anymore than someone that enjoys pvp is hardcore.  It's a taste issue.  Hell, I had fun playing Vanguard for a month. 

[Mrbloodworth]

Rake wins the thread for the day I think.

No.  Anyone that still resorts to the use of the word "carebear" can never win.  Anything. 

Someone that enjoys pve isn't a carebear anymore than someone that enjoys pvp is hardcore.  It's a taste issue.  Hell, I had fun playing Vanguard for a month. 

Now Nebu, you know the world is black and white, no shades of grey.

[Surlyboi]

Be careful when taunting carebears. There are more than a few that would pwn your fucking face.

[Vinadil]

Everything that anyone has ever described as fun in Darkfall boils down to "And then we ganked and looted this guy and loolll and we totally went to their racial city and fought them". About the official feature list in their FAQs and on their site, basically everyone says that the majority of it, you know, doesn't exist.

And that's fine. But if there isn't significantly more to the game than that and you're all just enamored with it because it's Lord Of The Flies Online take whateverteen, then you're all just idiots.

If there ARE toys in the sandbox, please inform me. Because a sandbox without toys is just a bunch of retarded kids pissing on each other and laughing.

I will give you a slightly shorter version than Xurtan.  The game design is similar to EVE in that it is based around points of interest that provide resources which help give power to the guilds that own them.  There are Hamlets and Cities to be owned and built up, which gives you access to items and skills.  Much of this is available at any NPC town, so just like EVE not just the powerful can craft etc.  But, the cities are also close to the monsters that drop loot you need to skill up in things like magic, crafting, etc.  Low-end mobs drop much of the same things (though not all), but they drop it in much lower quantities and they are generally over-camped etc.

Right now most people are in "build-up" mode.  Nobody even came close to completing a city in Beta, so we still don't even know what a completed city gives you (Apparently some can build Wonders that give your clan a world-wide buff).  The city itself gives a local HP regen buff to the defending Clan.

The Design basically is to capture and control the biggest/best cities to get yourself access to the best resources so that you can rule the world.  I suppose it all just comes down to wanting to rule the world/universe/2v2 Arena Charts/etc.  The random rolling PvP groups are mostly for entertainment.  In the future you will see more siege type warfare, and since sieges are announced globally... anyone can show up.  At the first siege we did we had our alliance there and then some 4-5 other clans/alliances made an appearance just looking for some good PvP.  It was about 50 v 50 most of the time, and people fought... and died.  As much as people talk about the eternal runners, its just not as big of a factor as you would think, especially as people get skilled up.

Most PvP stories you hear now would be about the same as WAR PvP at level 2, or WoW at level 8.  Sure, you can go fight people, but you are missing a large number of skills and abilities, so the combat might seem frustrating or one dimensional.  It is rather amazing how just one week of skilling up can change the dynamics of fights, both PvE and PvP.  As people start to delve into the deeper trees of magic and get more adept at their weapon of choice, combat changes.

[ashrik]

Hey I don't blame you guys. I personally find it very difficult to put my current attraction to this game into words. I purchased and played it based on a curious whim and it got its hooks into me (didn't you dear).

I'm not going to pretend it's some deficiency on their behalf (jealously, or whatever claptrap mmorpg people have decided on) or some virtue on mine.

I'm going to liken it to one of those anime fighting games that I used to play on emulators with my brother, like a decade ago. It has an advertised subject matter that is present to such a strong degree that it easily excuses (provided you're a fan of that subject matter whether it's Naruto, Erotic DBZ fanfic, or Full Loot PVP) what may be a deficiency in supporting systems.

[Nebu]

It is rather amazing how just one week of skilling up can change the dynamics of fights, both PvE and PvP.  As people start to delve into the deeper trees of magic and get more adept at their weapon of choice, combat changes.

So what you're saying (albeit indirectly) is that the game will be harsh on anyone starting midstream or rerolling an alt without the support of a strong guild? I guess this isn't all that different from any other pvp game but sure seems to discourage guilds coming to play once the server heirarchy is established.  I guess if there's enough depth, the game will overcome it just has EvE has.

[tmp]

Now Nebu, you know the world is black and white, no shades of grey.

Wouldn't that be shades of green..? At least that's what i thought it was...

[Venkman]

So what you're saying (albeit indirectly) is that the game will be harsh on anyone starting midstream or rerolling an alt without the support of a strong guild?

Same question as Nebu. What's the experience for the Johnny-come-lately crowd? Once my current crop of experiences dry up I was thinking of dropping into DF.

Otherwise, the "purpose" of the game sounds very similar to SB. Which was very different from Eve.

[NiX]

Same question as Nebu. What's the experience for the Johnny-come-lately crowd? Once my current crop of experiences dry up I was thinking of dropping into DF.

Otherwise, the "purpose" of the game sounds very similar to SB. Which was very different from Eve.

If it's anything like SB, then there's no room for people who come late unless they're fostered by a large guild for the sole purpose of removing a threat. I'm just waiting until the honeymoon is over.

[Venkman]

Actually, I have all along assumed that after beta you're either fostered by a large guild or going to have an un-fun few days of being steamrolled. It was the same in SB. So I figured when it came to that point I'd be begging whoever here is in DF for a lowbie spot in their guild