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sinij
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on: October 24, 2004, 06:46:00 PM

I'm reading up on upcoming mmorpg, Guild Wars, that my guild considering. GW claim no monthly fee and no hidden costs and I don't see how is that possible. Traditionally you pay 7-13$/month and a box purchase for expansions - that roughly adds up to 150-200$/year per account. Without monthly fee it will be tough to charge even half of that. Even with regular 'mandatry'expansions. So how are they planning to make money?

Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #1 on: October 24, 2004, 07:04:30 PM

The same way Blizzard makes money with battle.net I guess. In truth GW isn't an MMO as much as an advanced Diablo.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Righ
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Reply #2 on: October 24, 2004, 07:05:47 PM

Selling boxes. Numbers. This company hosts a lot of games. Big numbers reduce the unit cost. But send them some extra cash if it worries you a lot.

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
MrHat
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Reply #3 on: October 24, 2004, 07:08:49 PM

If I remember correctly they had a business plan based on very frequent expansion boxes.

You could buy these expansions and stay current w/ everyone, or fight it out with the people on the current interation.  Schild knows more and he'll probably chime in his 2 cents.

Quote from: Righ
But send them some extra cash if it worries you a lot.


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plangent
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Reply #4 on: October 24, 2004, 07:55:31 PM

Did anyone play the open weekend this weekend?

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schild
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Reply #5 on: October 24, 2004, 08:03:48 PM

There was no event this weekend. It's next weekend - the last 3 days of October.
Morfiend
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Reply #6 on: October 24, 2004, 08:18:09 PM

Quote from: sinij
I'm reading up on upcoming mmorpg, Guild Wars, that my guild considering. GW claim no monthly fee and no hidden costs and I don't see how is that possible. Traditionally you pay 7-13$/month and a box purchase for expansions - that roughly adds up to 150-200$/year per account. Without monthly fee it will be tough to charge even half of that. Even with regular 'mandatry'expansions. So how are they planning to make money?


Welcome to 2003.

Guild Wars has always planned on having no monthly fee, they are planning on using expansions to make up for it, lots of expansions. They claim they will get the same rough amount of money, but it will force them to constantly bring more fresh content to the player. Looks good on paper....
Alkiera
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Reply #7 on: October 24, 2004, 09:33:35 PM

Quote from: Morphiend
Quote from: sinij
I'm reading up on upcoming mmorpg, Guild Wars, that my guild considering. GW claim no monthly fee and no hidden costs and I don't see how is that possible. Traditionally you pay 7-13$/month and a box purchase for expansions - that roughly adds up to 150-200$/year per account. Without monthly fee it will be tough to charge even half of that. Even with regular 'mandatry'expansions. So how are they planning to make money?


Welcome to 2003.

Guild Wars has always planned on having no monthly fee, they are planning on using expansions to make up for it, lots of expansions. They claim they will get the same rough amount of money, but it will force them to constantly bring more fresh content to the player. Looks good on paper....


So, at $12.95/mo, publisher/developer makes $155 per year per account...  Which would imply they'll have to produce a full price($50) expansion, every what, 3-4 months, to make $155/year before retailer markup?  Now, volume could help, but overhead will scale with volume as well.  Version management will be kinda hellish as well.  Blizard has done alright with it's 1-2 expansion games, but a game with dozens of expansions?  Admittedly, EQLive has a similar issue... but frequently they just give everyone the same executable, and have parts turned off if you don't have the appropriate expansion.

Even if it works, their 'bottom line' is gonna look like a roller coaster, rather than the big early peak followed by a drop and eventually a fairly steady income that most MMOGs get.

--
Alkiera

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schild
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Reply #8 on: October 24, 2004, 09:56:27 PM

The world isn't limitless in Guild Wars. I'm confident enough to say that people will cap out their characters quickly and there will be no need to catass. It will be more like every couple days maybe run a guild quest or two, do a battle, get some phat lewt, and logout for a few days. Their bandwidth will be 1/10th of almost every other MMOG.
SurfD
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Reply #9 on: October 24, 2004, 10:29:39 PM

I have always thought of it in an almost Magic the Gathering kind of annalogy.

In Magic, you COULD shell out for simply the starter deck (Initial purchase of Guildwars box), and theoretically never have to buy another packet of cards again.  

You would, however, quickly be outstripped by players who expand their deck versatility by buying new booster packs (Guild Wars Expansions), and left in the dust.

Inherently, decks are balanced based on the fact that a deck is always limited to a set number of cards.  The boosters just allow you to find tune the preformance, versatility, and abilities of your deck.

With guild wars, what this means is that sure, you COULD grab the innitial game, and never pay a cent afterwards.  But everyone who shells out for an expansion is going to have access to content (be it zones, items, spells, etc) that you do not, and this will eventually leave you lying in the dust as your character stagnates.

What i am somewhat interested in is: What are they going to offer 6 to 8 months down the road when someone wants to "buy new"?  Will they bundle expansions together at discount rates once they have introduced enough of them?  I mean, getting into the game as a newbie after 8 months of expantions could be INSANELY expensive depending on their pricing model.

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schild
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Reply #10 on: October 24, 2004, 10:33:10 PM

No, it won't be. They have a buddy system. You only have to buy the first box if all/any of your friends by the expansion. Works like this:

3 Friends (A, B, & C) buy the first box (which they have to)
--> Friend A buys the first expansion. He can invite his other friends into one area at a time from the new expansion and they can go loot whoring or whatever (though they probably can't get the new spells) in all the expansion areas with him.
--> Friend B buys the second xpack and invites friends A & C to do the same as the first guy.
--> Friend C, etc.

It's a rather spiffy system. As long as you have friends online you can do any of the new areas.
SurfD
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Reply #11 on: October 24, 2004, 10:43:01 PM

Ahh, thats a pretty sweet setup then.

Damnit, why are there soo many cool things to spend my cash on coming out in the near future.  I am currently playing CoH, but WoW is looking more and more attractive as a breath of something different, and HL2 is just around the corner.  Gah, I need to get a better paying job.

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Nebu
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Reply #12 on: October 25, 2004, 01:04:29 AM

Quote from: schild
It's a rather spiffy system. As long as you have friends online you can do any of the new areas.


Friends don't let friends play mmog's.  

Is Guild Wars an mmog?  I'm not really sure how to categorize this game.  Online_Diablo 2_only_better?  I'm at a loss.

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Riggswolfe
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Reply #13 on: October 25, 2004, 01:20:15 AM

So is everyone giving it a try again next Weekend? I figure I will. I was unimpressed with the E3 demo but that was early on and I'm curious to see what has changed.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Kageru
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Reply #14 on: October 25, 2004, 01:20:50 AM

I thought about that one myself. The best I could come up with was;

"A world my character shares with other citizens".

So guildwars would be ineligible because there is no world. And with no world there can be no investment by people in anything other than their own character. Which leads to the suspicion that most pickup groups will primarily create an awareness that the deepest flaws in the game are the ones playing beside you.

Still, should be fun to see how it plays out.

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eldaec
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Reply #15 on: October 25, 2004, 02:24:02 AM

Why does the existence of a matchmaking lobby define the game as lacking a world?

All the characters start in the lobby part of the world, then they move into a specific other part of the world to run a match.

The only way I could define a MMOG, is that a community of characters exist, they persist from day to day, they can interact, they can potentially visit the same game space to cooperate or compete.

CS and the like don't count because the characters cease to exist at the end of a game and are created from scratch in the next game, therefore an individual character can only interact with a limited, non-massive, number of other characters before they disappear.

Diablo and Guild Wars qualify. They might not qualify as a MMORPG, but that is dependent on whether you see these games as RPGs.

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eldaec
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Reply #16 on: October 25, 2004, 02:30:35 AM

Quote
there can be no investment by people in anything other than their own character.


This is only as true for Guild Wars as it is for Everquest, or pre-housing DAoC.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Kageru
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Reply #17 on: October 25, 2004, 03:38:27 AM

That is of course the tricky bit. I think the important part is that the world continues after you leave. That means the social environment, constructed from the players who have aligned themselves to that world, continues to evolve in your absence. That's the basis for culture, community, guilds and other social structures. It makes you feel a small part of a larger whole. In that environment you can have the notion of reputation, of being nice to noobies because you might well meet them again, of being impressed when you watch high levels stroll by.

In guildwars no-one is likely to feel membership of the chat lobby. It's not a place you stay in, or do things, it's just a gap. And the instances will be similarly transient. Will people care about their reputation in the lobby? not if D2 is any basis for judgement. This will probably be re-inforced by the possibilty of ocassional gaming that GW allows. Your sharing the lobby wit h the entire population of GW, many of who you might never see again.

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Signe
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Reply #18 on: October 25, 2004, 05:59:01 AM

I was shouted at on another board for likening GW to D2.  The fanbois are adamant about it not being one bit like D2.  And they should know... most of them have played nothing but D2 since it was released.  I suppose that they are attracted by GW because the differences are spectacular.  

This is obviously another community that I will get along with famously.  :(

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plangent
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Reply #19 on: October 25, 2004, 06:07:52 AM

Ryzom's the only thing out there at the moment (that I'm familiar with) that has anything even resembling a mature community.  Even the fanbois are restrained, polite, and reasonable.

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waylander
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Reply #20 on: October 25, 2004, 07:36:33 AM

GW is not like D2. I believe they plan to do 2-3 expansions a year that will introduce new classes, races, items, etc.

There is no chat lobby, there is an instanced zone where people wait for a PvP arena. There's guild hall areas from which to gather and challenge competition as well.

The PvP is nothing like D2.

Go over to guildwars.com and download the world preview event client so you can try it out this weekend, and see for yourself.

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Megrim
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Reply #21 on: October 25, 2004, 07:40:55 AM

Quote from: Kageru
That is of course the tricky bit. I think the important part is that the world continues after you leave. That means the social environment, constructed from the players who have aligned themselves to that world, continues to evolve in your absence. That's the basis for culture, community, guilds and other social structures. It makes you feel a small part of a larger whole. In that environment you can have the notion of reputation, of being nice to noobies because you might well meet them again, of being impressed when you watch high levels stroll by.

In guildwars no-one is likely to feel membership of the chat lobby. It's not a place you stay in, or do things, it's just a gap. And the instances will be similarly transient. Will people care about their reputation in the lobby? not if D2 is any basis for judgement. This will probably be re-inforced by the possibilty of ocassional gaming that GW allows. Your sharing the lobby wit h the entire population of GW, many of who you might never see again.



Ugh, you are describing the D1 community (or any "non-persistent" online community), word-for-word. The only difference between what you are saying and the "worldless" existance of GW (or Diablo) is that instead of having a persistent "character" in-game, the mun behind it instead becomes the persistent and recognisable entity.

 - Meg

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Alkiera
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Reply #22 on: October 25, 2004, 08:13:36 AM

Quote from: waylander
GW is not like D2. I believe they plan to do 2-3 expansions a year that will introduce new classes, races, items, etc.

So, having more frequent expansions changes the nature of the game?  D2 had one expansion which added new classes, and several patches whitch added new items, and changed the archetypes enough that new subclasses were created.  
Quote from: waylander

There is no chat lobby, there is an instanced zone where people wait for a PvP arena. There's guild hall areas from which to gather and challenge competition as well.

Hrm, an instanced zone where people do little but chat while waiting to play the game...  Please to be explaining how this is different from a 3d chat lobby?
Quote from: waylander

The PvP is nothing like D2.

That remains to be seen, since I've heard no one who has played the game outside of the E3 event speak about it.  Equipment and levels were king in D2 pvp, especially equipment.  Hyper-specialization ruled the day, which when combined with relatively short advancement times, led to a massive FotM cycle.  In the E3 trial, everyone was stuck at the same level, with default equipment, and apparently PvP was interesting and fun.  I'm curious how it'll work when people have widely varying levels and equipment.

On the other hand, it does look like they may have given it a better shot at being balanced.  Balance is obviously something Blizzard wasn't very interested in, until the end.  Even so, there are obvious power-builds, and gimp builds in D2 1.10.  Whether there are in GW, again, remains to be seen.

Frankly, waylander, a comparison to D2, aside from the nature of the people battle.net attracts, isn't a bad thing.  The game was enjoyed enough to sell lots of copies, and is played by lots and lots and lots of people, even years after purchase, with only one expansion out there.  No one here is really disparaging the game, we're just curious to see how it works out.

Alkiera
P.S. Kageru, thanks for the sig quote.

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Reply #23 on: October 25, 2004, 08:33:01 AM

I had a lot of fun playing during the E3 preview event, and I can't wait to see how everything has changed this coming weekend.

I hope everyone here takes the opportunity to play.

The most interesting thing about this game is simply this: You are limited in the number of spells/skills you can take into an arena with you.

In that way it's a lot like M:TG - you must preselect your options before even stepping into the area; and, if you are in a randomized PvP arena, before you know who your teammates or opponents will be. The other PvP arenas allow you to build a team which would then allow you to select a skill set that complements each other.

I don't recall equipment playing a huge roll in the game, it was mostly spells and tactics. All in all, it was a blast.

Again, make sure you play this weekend - Maybe we should all play on the same server and mess around?

- Viin
Alkiera
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Reply #24 on: October 25, 2004, 09:15:55 AM

Quote from: Viin
I don't recall equipment playing a huge roll in the game, it was mostly spells and tactics.

Again, this is because in the E3 version, everyone was stuck at the same level, with the same default equipment by class.  There is next to no chance equipment will be that bland in the live game, and I'm still curious how levels will interact in the system.

Which is why I said we'll have to see.  I probably will participate this weekend, unless it's another level-locked pvp-only demonstration.

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Alkiera

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Welcome to the internet. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used as evidence against you in a character assassination on Slashdot.
Signe
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Reply #25 on: October 25, 2004, 09:45:07 AM

I did play the E3 demo and it kinda, sorta reminded me of D2.  Maybe it was just the prospect of phat loot and PvP, but that's what we were talking about in the other forum anyway.  I've noticed that gaming communities have turned extra special mean and nasty anyway, lately.  I don't mind so much... sometimes I get shouted at for simply exisiting.  It builds character.

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schild
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Reply #26 on: October 25, 2004, 09:49:47 AM

Quote from: Signe
I don't mind so much... sometimes I get shouted at for simply exisiting.  It builds character.


I think it's the avatar. Perhaps it's time for less kitty and more boobies.
Signe
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Reply #27 on: October 25, 2004, 09:53:15 AM

Ha!  I love you, schild!  And I will continue to love you until the fucking drugs wear off.  Then I will kill you because you seem to be morphing into Boog!  

No boobies for joo, old son!

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
geldonyetich
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Reply #28 on: October 25, 2004, 01:07:23 PM

Quote from: SurfD's Sig
Currently Playing: City of Heroes, Thief III, Disgaea

Damn, good picks.

Anywho, in regards to Guild Wars, I had written up a somewhat extencive review on my E3 impressions.

From my E3 (no, I didn't go to E3, but they had an open beta during it to demo the game) Guild Wars experiences, I can tell you that:

Guild Wars is not:
    [*]A traditional MMORPG, thus no subscription fee, and also not the same kind of giant, open-ended world.  (Travel was instant back in E3, just open your map and click on the destination.)[/list:u]
    Guild Wars is:
      [*]A Semi-MMORPG, like Phantasy Star Online, where the matchmaking GUI is actually part of the game and therefore players are allowed the full range of interaction outside of actual combat scenarios.
      [*]A game that caters perfectly to both solo and group play without inhibiting one or the other through use of instancing content specifically for the situation
      [*]A really easy game to find a group in thanks to congregation areas before each scenario.   You can log into an area and have a group assembled in seconds.
      [*]Quite possibly the best designed graphical multiplayer fantasy PvP game ever released, thanks to attention to balance, giving players meangingful decisions and roles in combat, and placing actual caps on team sizes involved in matches so battles aren't just one sided routs like they are in any other fantasy MMORPG PvP.
      [*]Possessing in scripted event scenarios where just hacking your way through hoardes of monsters is not always the answer.[/list:u]Oh, and that thing where you download a tiny (61 KB) installer and then the rest of the game streams from the internet is one of their selling points.   Broadband required? Yes.   However, the funny thing is, it works really really well, and allows them to introduce additional content very easily.

      Let me iterate, this isn't just a Diablo clone, this is a game which is poised to turn the entire online fantasy RPG market on it's ear.  If Guild Wars is successful, we could be talking the end of MMORPGs as we know it, or at least a solid splitting of the clone market.   On one side, EQ/M59 Clones with giant, massively multiplayer worlds.  On the other, highly competitive Guild Wars Clones that have no subscription fees and offer higher quality gameplay.

      Suffice to say, I'm looking forward to the world preview this weekend.

      Jayce
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      Reply #29 on: October 25, 2004, 01:58:54 PM

      Quote from: geldonyetich

      Suffice to say, I'm looking forward to the world preview this weekend.


      And I'm looking forward to the mini-game of watching the fanbois fall out of love with the game.

      Not that I'd mind losing that game, but based on previous experience, the deck is stacked.

      Witty banter not included.
      geldonyetich
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      Reply #30 on: October 25, 2004, 02:21:49 PM

      Fanboi?
      Moi?

      Well, sometimes.

      However, I think in Guild Wars case it's fairly justified.   Of course, they could have really screwed the game over since I last got a chance to play it in E3.   Also, there was the matter of the balance being off before, I'm not sure if they managed to rectify that or not.

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      Reply #31 on: October 25, 2004, 02:25:01 PM

      So I'm bored enough to try this out this weekend.  I still dislike the idea of "random uber lewtz + PvP" but I'm willing to give it a shot. Shit, the worst that can happen is I lose a few hours I'd spend on some other game.

        When the game starts up, I'll be either Merusk or Ayarae if anyone wants to hook-up.

      The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
      Viin
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      Reply #32 on: October 25, 2004, 05:54:41 PM

      I'm pulling this from the Guild Wars' World Preview Event page:

      Quote

          * Explore 2 new regions for conquest and adventure: The Kingdom of Kryta and The Wilds – each with its own beautiful environment, persistent town and instanced hunting grounds
             
          * Dive into Guild-on-Guild war for the first time in addition to tournament and arena team combat
             
          * Participate in 5 new cooperative missions that continue the Guild Wars story
             
          * Discover new character development and abilities: sample a host of new skills and elite skills for developing your characters and team strategy
             
          * Experience the Guild Wars leveling process: Players participating in the World Preview Event will start at Level 15 and can advance up to Level 20
             
          * Access guild functionality: During the duration of the event players will have the ability to form guilds, name guild leaders and to build their guild rank by competing against other teams in tournament combat
             
          * And get even more! Details to follow in the coming weeks...


      So, couple key things. A) you can only level from 15 to 20. B) Guilds are in (combat and creation), C) 5 new areas to explore/fight/quest in - I think that brings the total to ~8.

      For those of you playing this weekend, we should setup an F13 guild and see how we do against all the other n00b guilds. If someone wants to step up and take on the Guildmaster role that'd be sweet.

      - Viin
      schild
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      Reply #33 on: October 25, 2004, 06:01:21 PM

      Fuck I really want to start up zee Bat Country but I don't think I'll be around enough. Sigh. I'll know more on Friday.
      MrHat
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      Reply #34 on: October 25, 2004, 06:26:55 PM

      I'm there.

      Schild, maybe set up a Bat Country - Guild Wars forum?
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