Arena Season 4 - no more welfare epics

[Polysorbate80]

Prot paladins have their niche, and are better than prot warriors in pvp by fucking MILES.  Throw your last 15-20 points into Holy instead of ret then focus on stam, resil and +healing gear ....

The way I play WoW is definitely sub-optimal, but it's what I enjoy.

I don't mind healing people, but I hate playing healer.  So, no Holy spec, no +healing gear.  Plus, my wife is spec'd mostly Holy, and I let her heal when we duo. (I do have 10 points into Holy for the uninterruptible healing talent, though)

I don't like the Ret tree or waving around a two-hander.  No points there at all.

I don't want to raid and actually don't really like tanking instances for people either, but I really like the holy-warrior-with-shield schtick.  So, Prot spec and +spelldamage it is for me :)

Unfortunately, somewhere along the line I deluded myself into thinking I needed a bunch of +def stuff which turns out not to be necessary for my play style, and now I'm stuck replacing it with a more generalized set of gear.  The PvP stuff seems to fill the bill well, but it's taken me six weeks to accumulate the honor for three pieces--that should give you an idea how slowly I work.

[K9]

I must admit, having seen T6 prot warriors carrying the flag in EOTS and WSG, they do have a niche in PvP; albeit a narrow one.

[Polysorbate80]

One of my fondest PVP memories is watching a protadin charge a tower in EOTS, bubble, and everyone just ignored him.  We stared at him, waited 12 seconds, and blew him up in less than 10.

I find I have my most of my limited success by charging into a pack of horde on the road, firing up consecrate/holy shield, and then doing everything in my power to distract them from the fact they were actually going to go somewhere and do something useful while they kill me instead.  I usually don't bubble at all, unless it'll give me one more good consecrate in a pack of clothies.  This often allows the people coming along behind me to catch them while they're bunched up and preoccupied.

I still die every single time, but it racks up some surprisingly good damage numbers.  Although not so much with the kill numbers.

[Arrrgh]

Why would they announce this just before AoC comes out? It's going to piss off a lot of casual PVPers.

[Dren]

One of my fondest PVP memories is watching a protadin charge a tower in EOTS, bubble, and everyone just ignored him.  We stared at him, waited 12 seconds, and blew him up in less than 10.

I find I have my most of my limited success by charging into a pack of horde on the road, firing up consecrate/holy shield, and then doing everything in my power to distract them from the fact they were actually going to go somewhere and do something useful while they kill me instead.  I usually don't bubble at all, unless it'll give me one more good consecrate in a pack of clothies.  This often allows the people coming along behind me to catch them while they're bunched up and preoccupied.

I still die every single time, but it racks up some surprisingly good damage numbers.  Although not so much with the kill numbers.

I do that as a healadin from time to time too.  I only do it when we are way ahead in score, but the other side could possibly come back.  At that point it is all about efficient use of time.  Sometimes I can make the other side be inefficient more than make my side efficient.

For some reason, Horde typically plays smart right up until a paladin dares to attack a group solo on the road in the middle of nowhere.  Then they seem to get stupid and take 30 seconds or more killing me.

I've often done this for more than a minute and end it with a hearty laugh as the final score window pops up in our faces.

The bad part?  This seems to work 3x better on alliance players.

[Musashi]

I think the problem with this change is that it doesn't address the fact that any dick can dump a team and reset his personal rating.  This allows S3, and potentially now S4 if there remains no further changes, geared dudes to just delete their team and start over with a personal rating of 1500.  So if you're just starting out an alt on a new team in rep reward blues, you're totally ass raped by teams doing this for whatever reason - most likely to sell personal rating.

I don't know how to fix that, as I think it's important for people to be able to change teams if they want without too much penalty.  Some people feel that personal rating should be more permanent, but I don't know if that's the right answer either.  My only thought would be to change the matchmaking system to take an average of the item level of gear that people are wearing and apply that to how it weighs who gets to fight who.  That way if some cock bag in season four wants to sell rating he has to do it against teams that are more equally geared.  Of course then you'd have to figure out a way to prevent fags from queuing in greens, then switching to purples once the they accept the queue.

I've seen a LOT of assholes running around in greens and blues with season three shoulders (the current piece that requires a really high rating.)  I think this change will slow this down a bit, because now people are forced to tank their personal rating in order to make money.  But the thing is, after they get all their shit, wtf do they care?

[Gobbeldygook]

This allows S3, and potentially now S4 if there remains no further changes, geared dudes to just delete their team and start over with a personal rating of 1500.  So if you're just starting out an alt on a new team in rep reward blues, you're totally ass raped by teams doing this for whatever reason - most likely to sell personal rating.

Ok.  You get raped by a Gladiator reroll team.  They gain rating.  They also rape some other people.  They gain rating.  Now they're out of your range and thus no longer your problem.

I grinded out 40 or 50 matches last week with a new partner to see how it went (fairly well; he'll actually be in a PVP spec next time we run).  We hit 2-3 teams where they just so dramatically out-geared us we never stood a chance.  A few times, we took down much better geared teams.  When we lost, it was mostly due to the other team being just plain better.  Sometimes it was that they chose a better comp, oftentimes they were just better players.

Gladiator rerolls are just not as big a factor as so many people seem to think.

Why would they announce this just before AoC comes out? It's going to piss off a lot of casual PVPers.

Blood Coins are effectively the currency of combat in the Border Kingdoms, tokens taken from the dying corpses of your foes. These Blood Coins are a mark of victory amongst combatants that will serve as bragging rights, status symbols and also a very useful currency in itself.
...
In addition all PVP combat earns your character separate PVP exp that goes towards earning your twenty PVP levels and gaining access to special feats and abilities that are exclusive to PVP.
...
Also your Blood Coins are even more then just a token of your stature with the bow, blade or mystical arts. Blood Coins will be used to purchase the PVP feats you earn access to from special vendors in the Border Kingdoms.
...
We want to hopefully address the cowardly practise of hiding away your valuables when entering PVP as well, but also allow you to save something before being beheaded. Therefore some of your blood coin will always be available to your foes (we'll decide on the balance of this one as we proceed through beta).

Age of Conan lets Captain Catass kill you and take your honor points.  Enjoy your grind.

[Musashi]

This allows S3, and potentially now S4 if there remains no further changes, geared dudes to just delete their team and start over with a personal rating of 1500.  So if you're just starting out an alt on a new team in rep reward blues, you're totally ass raped by teams doing this for whatever reason - most likely to sell personal rating.

Ok.  You get raped by a Gladiator reroll team.  They gain rating.  They also rape some other people.  They gain rating.  Now they're out of your range and thus no longer your problem.

I grinded out 40 or 50 matches last week with a new partner to see how it went (fairly well; he'll actually be in a PVP spec next time we run).  We hit 2-3 teams where they just so dramatically out-geared us we never stood a chance.  A few times, we took down much better geared teams.  When we lost, it was mostly due to the other team being just plain better.  Sometimes it was that they chose a better comp, oftentimes they were just better players.

Gladiator rerolls are just not as big a factor as so many people seem to think.

Some battlegroups are claiming the frequency of meeting a much more well geared team is substantially higher than that.  Beside the point though.  Isn't the point of the rating system that outgeared people never meet in 'sport' pvp?  And those fags in blues and greens with season 3 shoulders deserve them, right?

To be honest, it doesn't really bother me that much.  I'm pretty confident in my ability to grind my dudes past the point where it's an issue.  I know that on the other end of it is my team with fully geared guys stomping the shit out of teams with one totally undergeared guy - thus leading to my advantage in mid to higher brackets.

But I still think it should be as fair as possible - and I didn't see you disagree with that.  I think that gladiator rerolls are a bigger factor than you assert in really low brackets.  In some battlegroups, it's a way bigger factor, and mine is one of them.  I think that if it continues, it will snowball, as fewer and fewer people find a fair chance to start new teams they just stop queuing altogether - opting instead to wait until they complete the honor farming of regular bg's - oh look it just got harder to do that too.  And with all due respect, I think you're overselling your case based on a very limited sample.  "lol suck it up noob - it only happened to me a couple times last week" doesn't really address what is obviously an issue.

[Gobbeldygook]

I think that gladiator rerolls are a bigger factor than you assert in really low brackets

Let's back up and think this through logically.  You are asserting that the population of really good players that are making new teams is, at any given point in time, so large it actually ruins the game for the population of players that are nowhere jear as good as they are(whether that be gear, comp, or simple skill).  Do you actually believe that most players are playing at a 2k+ level and that only a small minority are scrubbin' it up in the lower brackets(Which let's arbitrarily define as...below 1700)?

[Modern Angel]

Once again I am reminded that WoW tries so hard to emulate Guild Wars pvp when Guild Wars' focus was actually pvp and fails hard.

[Musashi]

I think that gladiator rerolls are a bigger factor than you assert in really low brackets

Let's back up and think this through logically.  You are asserting that the population of really good players that are making new teams is, at any given point in time, so large it actually ruins the game for the population of players that are nowhere jear as good as they are(whether that be gear, comp, or simple skill).  Do you actually believe that most players are playing at a 2k+ level and that only a small minority are scrubbin' it up in the lower brackets(Which let's arbitrarily define as...below 1700)?

These guys are artificially inflating the amount of points a guy who doesn't deserve it gets every week, while at the same time stomping the shit out of your alt team and preventing YOU from advancing.  You say they just do it to you a couple times, and then they move on to a higher bracket and your dealings with them are done.  But that's not accurate.  They're doing it over and over, every week.  These are the guys who are online every day.  So while there might actually be a higher percentage of regular people who are in the right bracket who played games during the week, most of them were casual, and not online every day.  But the catass guys are.  I've personally gotten them two or even three times in a row.  And who can blame them, really.  Whether they're doing it too much for you, or not, I don't really give a fuck.  They're doing it too much for me.  So I came here to the intarwebs to file my protest.  You can look the other way if that suits you.

[Righ]

Why would they do this?

Safety in numbers, when you learn to divide - how can we be in, if there is no outside?

[Merusk]

Once again I am reminded that WoW tries so hard to emulate Guild Wars pvp when Guild Wars' focus was actually pvp and fails hard.

[Merusk]

We want to hopefully address the cowardly practise of hiding away your valuables when entering PVP as well, but also allow you to save something before being beheaded. Therefore some of your blood coin will always be available to your foes (we'll decide on the balance of this one as we proceed through beta).

Age of Conan lets Captain Catass kill you and take your honor points.  Enjoy your grind.
[/quote]

I was just thinking about this.  What's to stop me from rolling-up a noob on my wife's account and having it wtfpwn me on a regular basis so I can 'bank' blood money without fear of losing it.  Then when i need it, I kill the alt spend what I need and get killed to bank it again.

This seems like the stupidest idea ever now that I've actually paid attention to it.

[K9]

iirc, blood money is only obtainable within the border kingdoms, which are higher-level zones.

I've lost track of recent changes though.

[Righ]

Paypal me $50 and I'll let you kill my Grand Master Champion of Cimmeria for your epic title and feats. Plus ca change.

[Fordel]

iirc, blood money is only obtainable within the border kingdoms, which are higher-level zones.

I've lost track of recent changes though.

People used to Trade Kills for RPs in DaoC and Win Trading/Queue dodging  is rampant in the WoW Arena system.

I have no doubt people will find a way to farm Blood Coins off each other.


People suck 

[Ingmar]

iirc, blood money is only obtainable within the border kingdoms, which are higher-level zones.

I've lost track of recent changes though.

People used to Trade Kills for RPs in DaoC and Win Trading/Queue dodging  is rampant in the WoW Arena system.

I have no doubt people will find a way to farm Blood Coins off each other.


People suck 

In the case of Conan, blame the devs. Hm, let's create a system where we give the people who win more abilities with which to win more. What could possibly go wrong!

[K9]

In the case of Conan, blame the devs. Hm, let's create a system where we give the people who win more abilities with which to win more. What could possibly go wrong!

This is different to WOW how?


The AoC system seems set for rampant abuse too, I'd agree.

[Xanthippe]

I think the problem with this change is that it doesn't address the fact that any dick can dump a team and reset his personal rating.  This allows S3, and potentially now S4 if there remains no further changes, geared dudes to just delete their team and start over with a personal rating of 1500.  So if you're just starting out an alt on a new team in rep reward blues, you're totally ass raped by teams doing this for whatever reason - most likely to sell personal rating.

I don't know how to fix that, as I think it's important for people to be able to change teams if they want without too much penalty.

Better players get better gear so that they can wtfpwn noobs even more easily and the gear disparity continues making it ever harder for freshly minted 70s to be anything but fodder.

What's wrong with this picture?

How about this - Blizzard gives everyone one pvp purple/month just because they pay Blizzard a subscription fee. 

Or how about naked arenas.

Or how about less disparity in gear.

[waylander]

S4 Changes = /cancel my 2 accounts

I'm sick of farming honor. I hate the arena because the game wasn't balanced around such small combat in mind. Lastly in WoW you are defined by your gear. Those who have it will pwn those who don't 9 times out of 10.

All they're doing is pushing casuals out of PVP, and with the stupid changes to premades that make them sit in 60 minute ques they've killed off BG's except for the retarded PUG fights.

I don't care if AOC/WAR isn't a significant upgrade, its just time to move on and quit giving them my money.

[Nebu]

Making pvp work in a gear-based environment = hard.  

If they're going to award prizes for pvp, they should have done it in world-based pvp where they could have some small effect be the result of large scale battles.  Arenas are artificial constructs to begin with and favor only a small subset of the playerbase.  Rewarding the hardcore with the ability to wtfpwn players they likely could have already beaten is just adding insult to injury.  

Stick to PvE Blizzard.  You do that better than anyone in the industry.  PvP... not so much.  

[Gobbeldygook]

Better players get better gear so that they can wtfpwn noobs even more easily and the gear disparity continues making it ever harder for freshly minted 70s to be anything but fodder.

What's wrong with this picture?

Every time a new season comes out, they put the gear from two seasons back on the honor vendor.  Now every Tom, Dick, and Harry can just /afk their way to Tier 5 epics.  This season, about half of the new Season 4 stuff (Equivalent in item level to what people are getting from Sunwell) requires you maintain an Arena rating to buy it.

The difference between seasons is not as big as people seem to think.  The biggest difference is going from 0 resilience to some resilience, which you can get just buy doing one day's worth of dailies and buying the blue rep set.  The difference between a warrior's season 4 set and a warrior's season 3 set is 37 stamina(370 health for non-tauren), 28 strength(4 DPS), and 28 critical strike rating(About 1.2% critical strike rating).  That's nothing.  That health?  Maybe one hit.  4 DPS?  Drop in the bucket.

and with the stupid changes to premades that make them sit in 60 minute ques they've killed off BG's except for the retarded PUG fights

Do you really want to spend your days beating up on PUGs that never stand a chance?  If the queue times and competition bother you that much, just queue as a 5-man group and you can enter the PUG queue.

[Nebu]

Arenas should be a way for the hardcore to go somplace and whack epeens against eachother.  Blizzard has blown it by making them considerably more meaningful.  BG's and world pvp should be the most important aspect in an MMO if they're really aiming to involve the largest percentage of the playerbase.   Let's hope other game makers have discovered this as well.

[Hutch]

and with the stupid changes to premades that make them sit in 60 minute ques they've killed off BG's except for the retarded PUG fights

Do you really want to spend your days beating up on PUGs that never stand a chance?  If the queue times and competition bother you that much, just queue as a 5-man group and you can enter the PUG queue.

He may or he may not. The changes to premade queueing have emptied out the queue of everyone who was hoping to roll pug's, leaving only the premades who actually want to play other premades. These are few and far between enough that they have to wait an hour for their turn in the queue. Sucks for them, good for pug players.

[K9]

and with the stupid changes to premades that make them sit in 60 minute ques they've killed off BG's except for the retarded PUG fights

Do you really want to spend your days beating up on PUGs that never stand a chance?  If the queue times and competition bother you that much, just queue as a 5-man group and you can enter the PUG queue.

There's definately a solid core of premaders who would genuinely jump at the opportunity for 10v10 and 25v25 ranked BGs. Premade vs Premade is horrible for honour farming, but great for fun in my experience.

[Zetor]

Every time a new season comes out, they put the gear from two seasons back on the honor vendor.  Now every Tom, Dick, and Harry can just /afk their way to Tier 5 epics.  This season, about half of the new Season 4 stuff (Equivalent in item level to what people are getting from Sunwell) requires you maintain an Arena rating to buy it.

The difference between seasons is not as big as people seem to think.  The biggest difference is going from 0 resilience to some resilience, which you can get just buy doing one day's worth of dailies and buying the blue rep set.  The difference between a warrior's season 4 set and a warrior's season 3 set is 37 stamina(370 health for non-tauren), 28 strength(4 DPS), and 28 critical strike rating(About 1.2% critical strike rating).  That's nothing.  That health?  Maybe one hit.  4 DPS?  Drop in the bucket.

If Blizzard cared about "gear parity", they'd make full s4 arena gear including BG pieces default for everyone in the arena and give the option to switch out other armor pieces as needed; arena and BG points could then be used to buy the 'privilege' of using that equipment outside arenas. It's silly to talk about "skill-based pvp" when you have someone in full s1 fighting someone in full s3 (or s2 fighting someone in s4).

Yes, there is a huge gear disparity between s1 and s3 (s2->s3 or s3->s4 is the wrong comparison, s1 is 'entry level', s2 will be 'entry level' after s4). Sticking with warriors, they get (just from the 5/5 set + weapons, comparing sets via wowhead, AP on war edges was converted to str)
+1131 armor
+73 str
+87 sta
+7 hit rating
+57 crit rating
+11 resil (this in itself isn't a huge difference, I agree)
+350 ArP
+15.6 weapon DPS; s3 mace has ~70 more top end damage, which scales

That is for warriors who grind ~160k honor for full season1 and weapon, along with every single BG accessory (and are wishing to shell out for the same enchants and BT gems the 5/5 s3 player likely did) and 60 badges for dory's embrace. Not really an 'entry level' player... and the difference in armor and armor penetration matters a lot, as arena teams tend to be physical damage-heavy.

Let's compare a warrior who enters pvp with the 5/5 savage plate set, using the arechron's gift 2h mace from nagrand rep, and random level70 blue instance accessories to the aforementioned warrior in full season3:
+2685 armor
+107 str
+177 sta
+115 crit
-6 hit
+56 resil
+350 ArP
+40.9 weapon dps (for reference, the blue 2h mace has 93.3 dps)
aaand I'm too lazy to look up appropriate blue necklaces/bracers/belt/boots/rings/trinkets/capes/ranged weapons, but all those slots have a similar itemlevel difference, so double those numbers above (except armor and ArP) for good measure. :P

Also, arena gear is NOT good for pve for a lot of classes. How often do you see holy priests in s3 instead of [properly gemmed/enchanted] teir4? How about warlocks switching out frozen shadoweave for s3?


-- Z.
(to preempt the inevitable "omg ur a scrub" flames: I played on a 1800+ rated 5v5 team, as an affliction warlock with 200ish resilience and 500+ ping. I'm not deluded enough to think I'm gladiator material, but I can hold my own in pvp...)

[Dren]

and with the stupid changes to premades that make them sit in 60 minute ques they've killed off BG's except for the retarded PUG fights

Do you really want to spend your days beating up on PUGs that never stand a chance?  If the queue times and competition bother you that much, just queue as a 5-man group and you can enter the PUG queue.

He may or he may not. The changes to premade queueing have emptied out the queue of everyone who was hoping to roll pug's, leaving only the premades who actually want to play other premades. These are few and far between enough that they have to wait an hour for their turn in the queue. Sucks for them, good for pug players.

This was by far one of the best changes Blizzard has made.  The idiotic practice of creating pre-mades just to roll over PUGs was just playing the system.  To complain about that really puts you in class of person I dislike.  Seriously.  The former practice came down to running out to the nodes and flags as fast as possible and ending the game quickly to get your goodies.  I joined a server pre-made once and was just sickened by what was happening.  It was ridiculous.

If you feel that getting honor and marks is so slow that you have to do something like this.  Quit.  

Would I prefer playing pre-mades against pre-mades?  Hell yes, but that is just not usually feasible.  The shear number of PUGs compared to pre-mades should tell you something about that.  I like the freedom of just jumping into a match whenever I want instantly.  I absolutely don't want to join and then look up to see that the other side is a premade and every single person on your side has already sat down and gone afk.

[waylander]

No we don't want to spend our days rolling PUG's. My comment reflects that we sit in ques of up to 70 minutes just waiting for a dam match. After two weeks of that, our guild said fuck it and we no longer bother with BG's period.

[HRose]

Arenas should be a way for the hardcore to go somplace and whack epeens against eachother.  Blizzard has blown it by making them considerably more meaningful.  BG's and world pvp should be the most important aspect in an MMO if they're really aiming to involve the largest percentage of the playerbase.   Let's hope other game makers have discovered this as well.

they discovered the opposite, you know.

[Dren]

Zetor, I understand S1 is introductory, but S2 is still obtainable by most anyone.  They can be had by just getting your points each week.  You can fully outfit yourself in S2 regardless.

I think the point being made is that there is no block to anyone doing that and the along the way they will pick up a lot of the s3 pieces because the requirement is 1500....the starting score.

It really only comes down to only being really really difficult to get those very last few pieces and those are just a tad bit better than the season below it.

I keep hearing, "Oh noes, I'll never be able to compete because I can't get top season gear."  From what I can see, and from what I've done, that just isn't true.  I pvp casually and have never even come cloes to 1850 for arenas and I'll be fully equipped in everything but the shoulders, pants, and weapon...if I'm remembering right.  The rest is s3 gear with the misc. BG stuff.

Yes, people starting out with scrub pvp gear will get....scrubbed.  They will still gain their points and make their way towards better days.  Yes, even equity from the start would help show player skill better, but you just aren't going to get that.   There has to be rewards or you will not get anyone to participate.

I do like the idea I saw here of having arenas automatically outfit all in the best and the rewards would be for everywhere else.  That could be a good compromise.

[Zetor]

Well, I was looking at it from the "person trying to get into pvp" angle. The blue pvp set is not much to begin with, so everyone will have to grind BGs for honor, only to find out that they can't even use their honor to buy the accessories because they need a 1600 rating for that too! So they go into arenas [in blues still] and get completely obliterated by everyone who's been farming arena points since the start of s1 and enters season4 with 3/5 s3, 1/5 s4 (at least). They get knocked down to 1300ish rating and have to spend the next few months scrounging enough arena points together to make themselves at least semi-competitive (unless they spend a lot of hours grinding BGs, which will still put them under the 'gear average' of the 1500-1600 bracket... full of the aforementioned 'farming arena points since s1, but not really competitive' people)

Incrementally, there isn't a huge earth-shaking difference between s3 and s4 stats [except for the weapon, is that 144 dps?! That's a 10dps increase over s3], and other than ArP, not TOO big a difference between s2 and s3. But still, casual pvpers (like my guildies) will have nowhere near enough arena points or BG points to even present more than a speedbump. When the choice is between farming BGs for days on end in order to get competitive even at the lower brackets of arena (possibly qualifying for one extra s4 piece... maybe two or three), and saying "f it" and forgetting about arena entirely, I can already see which they'll choose, or which I would choose if I didn't really enjoy the arena gameplay itself (for all its faults, it has its moments... sometimes).


-- Z.

[Merusk]

You know what else this does?  It will fuck-over the 'hardcore' pretty hard as well.  

There's a critical mass of players that has to happen to keep queues going at a good clip.  To this point, the constant upgrades have let casuals do their 10-and-done thing each week, getting a few bits from each season and saving points towards the next.  As you start to restrict that gear, those folks will find there's no more need to arena. They were doing it 'for fun' or 'for teh purplez' and if there's no upgrades available to them, well, why bother trying so hard to get those 10 games each week.

 I know it happened to my teams midway through last season, and I've only gotten a few games at all this season.  The response has been a pretty big "Meh, I've got everything, and I don't feel like doing it this week, I'm working on my alt."

As this happens more and more often, the rankings will start to slide.  Those players who were on the bottom end, being fodder for the higher-ranked teams will be thinned the quickest.  As this happens, everyone in the top tiers starts to slide downward, filling in those empty spots in the ladder.

  This happens because those 'fodder teams' are gone and the 1500's teams don't have 1400's teams to fight, because they're down in the 1300's now, debating quitting.  Suddenly your 1800 team is only 1750 and you can't do jack. Your 1500 team slides into oblivion-land and begins to wonder if it's worth it, and the race for gear gets that much tighter and the cycle continues on that way.

Whoops.

[HRose]

You know what else this does?  It will fuck-over the 'hardcore' pretty hard as well. 

There's a critical mass of players that has to happen to keep queues going at a good clip.  To this point, the constant upgrades have let casuals do their 10-and-done thing each week, getting a few bits from each season and saving points towards the next.  As you start to restrict that gear, those folks will find there's no more need to arena. They were doing it 'for fun' or 'for teh purplez' and if there's no upgrades available to them, well, why bother trying so hard to get those 10 games each week.

 I know it happened to my teams midway through last season, and I've only gotten a few games at all this season.  The response has been a pretty big "Meh, I've got everything, and I don't feel like doing it this week, I'm working on my alt."

As this happens more and more often, the rankings will start to slide.  Those players who were on the bottom end, being fodder for the higher-ranked teams will be thinned the quickest.  As this happens, everyone in the top tiers starts to slide downward, filling in those empty spots in the ladder.

  This happens because those 'fodder teams' are gone and the 1500's teams don't have 1400's teams to fight, because they're down in the 1300's now, debating quitting.  Suddenly your 1800 team is only 1750 and you can't do jack. Your 1500 team slides into oblivion-land and begins to wonder if it's worth it, and the race for gear gets that much tighter and the cycle continues on that way.

Whoops.

That's a quite common consequence. The more you open gaps, the more each group starts to lose pieces.

The hardcore games all follow that path. They hemorrhage players as they go because fewer and fewer can keep up. It happens with raids as it happens with PvP.

And we are discussing once again that Blizzard is making the game for a small minority instead of a great majority. I really would like to know how many customers bought WoW because they expected to find an "eSport" game like Kalgan says...

[Ingmar]

In the case of Conan, blame the devs. Hm, let's create a system where we give the people who win more abilities with which to win more. What could possibly go wrong!

This is different to WOW how?


The AoC system seems set for rampant abuse too, I'd agree.

It is a system with far more potential for abuse than WoW's. In WoW, the difference is a few % points of passive abilities for the most part. Yeah it sucks, and it is giving an advantage to a player who already has a skill advantage, which is dumb. However...

AoC seems to be setting itself up for a system more like DAOC's realm points (or master levels), where a higher-up person actually can use extra abilities, powers, whatever, that a low RR person can't do at all. *That's* why it sucks, and that's 10 times worse than a system where one guy has slightly better gear but otherwise has the same capabilities. Endgame PVP shouldn't be an additional level grind if they want any kind of parity to exist on the battlefield.