Fitting a Domi for L4

[Morat20]

Any Gallente mission runners want to scope this setup for me? This is -- from memory, so if I'm using too many slots somewhere, that's why -- what I've got setup.

Highs:
2x250mm Rails (sorry, can't fit larges yet)
1xNamed Heavy Nos
2xSalvager
1xTractor

Meds:
3xCap Recharger II
1xDrone Navigation Computer
1xOmniDirectional Tracking Link

Lows:
4xN-Type Active Hardener (One of each type)
1xDamage Controls II
2xLarge Armor Repairer II

Rigs:
Cap Control Circuit
Drone Range Augmentor
Drone Speed Booster (whatever it's called).

Drones:
5xOgre IIs
5xHammer IIs
5xHob IIs.

I'll be adding 5xWarden's when I get Sentry guns trained, although I'm a LONG way from Warden IIs. I'm currently training Battleship 3/5. I'm cap stable at about 35% with one repper and all the hardeners/damage controls running (no guns, though -- but I don't need a nos target either), my armor resists are 68 to 72% across the board. The lack of 1600 plate is really bugging me, as is the lack of an AB. 

I ran it in an easy L3 last night -- Ogres popped everything, and while I did get into the armor a single repper more than kept up. I don't know how it will do in L4s, but I don't plan to try until I have my Battleship skills to 4.

I'd also like any advice on using Sentries in a mission. Using them in 0.0 ratting I understand -- you can scoop and run instantly -- but in a mission I'm not sure when and where Wardens would be preferrable to Ogre IIs.

[IainC]

Mine is as follows:

Hislots
5x Gallente Navy 350mm Rails (swap these for dual 250mm rails if you don't have AWU V)
Drone link

Midslots
Gallente Navy 100MN AB
Medium Cap booster II (if you have the 250mm rails you can easily fit a decent t1 large cap booster here)
Cap Recharger II
Drone Nav computer
Gallente Navy Sensor Booster

Loslots
Gallente Navy large armour repper
Gallente Navy EANM
DCU II
Gallente Navy mag Field Stabiliser
Energised Regenerative Membrane II
2x rat specific active hardeners

Rigs:
2x Cap control circuits
Nano pump

Drones
5xogre II
5xHammerhead II
5xHobgoblin II
3xHeavy armour repair drones
4xWardens

My set up is pretty pimp and I can afk in level 4 missions while tanking a whole stage normally. With reasonable fitting skills you should be able to swap out any of the faction items for t2 or best named t1 equivalents.

[eldaec]

I haven't used them yet, but from the stats I'd assume that sentries are better anytime you can rely on the opposition to stay in range (so most missions)?

Also, given the amount of space you have in the drone bay, I'd think about carrying some logistic drones, because at the least they'll help you reset quickly for the next acceleration gate.

And I would swap at least one or two of your cap rechargers for cap batteries. You'll get better time-till-empty from a battery than a recharger (and remember batteries also give an amount of recharge increase).

[IainC]

Also, given the amount of space you have in the drone bay, I'd think about carrying some logistic drones, because at the least they'll help you reset quickly for the next acceleration gate.

You can't use logistics drones on yourself. I only use mine for repping my other drones on the offchance I've been careless and let them get damaged.

[Morat20]

Well, since I can't afford (nor am skilled enough yet) to try Iain's fitting (I'm about to EFT it and see what I'm short of), do you see any problems with the fitting I've got?

I'll fiddle with EFT and see what replacing a cap charger with a battery gets me. Since I'm cap stable with a single T2 Large repper, cap's really not a problem with me. The second repper is there mostly for "oh shit" moments as I try to align and run the hell away. (I can't run both reppers for more than about 60 seconds if I'm at my cap stable point).

[IainC]

If you're mission running in that ship rather than ratting in 0.0 then I'd suggest the following:

• Lose the 2 salvagers and the tractor and buy a dedicated salvage boat. Level 4 missions are too big to salvage with a Domi's cargo hold anyway and it will take you hours to clear wrecks in a slow battleship with a single tractor and only two salvagers. Replace them with more guns or more drone links.
  Unless your cap situation is critical I'd lose the NOS as well. It only half works v NPCs in that it does give you more cap but it doesn't shut down their tank like it would against players. Again more guns or another drone link.
  

• Lose at least one of the cap rechargers. I'd replace it with a cap booster myself but a battery might be enough.
  I'd also seriously think about fitting an AB. Sometimes you have a long way to fly to a gate and the 139m/s you'll get from your Domi with Nav 5 isn's so hot. Also sometimes you'll pop into a pocket close to bad guys, aligning to a distant object and then ABing off to a sensible engagement range can mean the difference between buying a new Domi and ez-mode PvE.
  

• You don't need 4 hardeners for missioning. At least, not all at the same time. Most missions you need two, vs Mercs or Rogue drones you may need 3.
  Dropping one of the LARs will help your cap situation no end - especially if you cut some of the cap rechargers. If you must run two then run a pair of mediums.
  Replace any loslots you've chopped with an EANM and/or a regenerative plate.
  A lowslot sensor booster can be a good option too as your drone range is likely to be very close to your max targeting range otherwise.

[Morat20]

If you're mission running in that ship rather than ratting in 0.0 then I'd suggest the following:

• Lose the 2 salvagers and the tractor and buy a dedicated salvage boat. Level 4 missions are too big to salvage with a Domi's cargo hold anyway and it will take you hours to clear wrecks in a slow battleship with a single tractor and only two salvagers. Replace them with more guns or more drone links.
  Unless your cap situation is critical I'd lose the NOS as well. It only half works v NPCs in that it does give you more cap but it doesn't shut down their tank like it would against players. Again more guns or another drone link.
  

• Lose at least one of the cap rechargers. I'd replace it with a cap booster myself but a battery might be enough.
  I'd also seriously think about fitting an AB. Sometimes you have a long way to fly to a gate and the 139m/s you'll get from your Domi with Nav 5 isn's so hot. Also sometimes you'll pop into a pocket close to bad guys, aligning to a distant object and then ABing off to a sensible engagement range can mean the difference between buying a new Domi and ez-mode PvE.
  

• You don't need 4 hardeners for missioning. At least, not all at the same time. Most missions you need two, vs Mercs or Rogue drones you may need 3.
  Dropping one of the LARs will help your cap situation no end - especially if you cut some of the cap rechargers. If you must run two then run a pair of mediums.
  Replace any loslots you've chopped with an EANM and/or a regenerative plate.
  A lowslot sensor booster can be a good option too as your drone range is likely to be very close to your max targeting range otherwise.

Well, if I dump a repper and replace one hardner with EANM I get 68 to 72% resists across the board (I dropped the EM one). I can drop a cap recharger and add in a AB, but then my tank drops to 10 minutes -- without guns. (4 mediums). If I drop the Drone Nav computer, and stick with 3xCap Rechargers I can maintain the full tank with 2 guns firing, or tank for 15 minutes with all four going. (4 guns, two Drone Links).

My targetting range is going to be 85k.

So this:
Lows: 3xRat Specific Hardener (or 2xRat Specific + Regen Plate)
1xEANM2
1xDC 2
1xLAR 2

Meds:
1x100MN AB
3xCap Recharger 2
1xOmni Tracking Link

Highs:
4x250mm rails
2xDrone Link Augmentor

And still with the Cap rig, the Drone speed and range rigs.

Without guns, I'm doing 373 DPS, lock range of 85, max speed (AB) of 375, my drone range should be out to 90k or so, I've got 8k armor and can run my tank cap-stable with two guns (not that they add much), with armor resists of 72% EM, 77% Thermal/Kinetic and 68% explosive.

[IainC]

For your cap calculations remember that you probably aren't going to be running the AB in combat so you can turn it off while working out how long your tank will hold. Likewise your LAR is only going to be running intermittently. 5 minutes of sustained cap is usually plenty - especially if you have a booster available.

[Morat20]

For your cap calculations remember that you probably aren't going to be running the AB in combat so you can turn it off while working out how long your tank will hold. Likewise your LAR is only going to be running intermittently. 5 minutes of sustained cap is usually plenty - especially if you have a booster available.

I'd prefer to keep the drone nav computer in there, but 2xCap Rechargers only gives me 10 (with 3 hardeners) to 13 minutes (with 2 hardeners) of tank if I'm JUST running the tank and drones. This is all with AB off -- AB eats cap, and I never fight with it on.

I could do 2xCap Recharger, 1xLarge Cap battery and still be cap stable -- but I'm not really sure what that's buying me.

I've sort of lost track of why I'm trying to dump the 3rd recharger for a battery or booster -- if I dumped the third entirely I could put the Drone Nav computer back in, but as it is I have six slots -- the Omni I'm keeping, the AB I'd like to keep. What else is worth putting in the other three slots? Cap chargers, cap boosters/batteries, a Drone Nav computer and maybe a Sensor booster.

Is 84k too short a targetting range without the booster?

Also, I think I will have to train up the skills that boost the effectiveness of your active hardeners. :) To at least level 2 or 3.

[Grand Design]

I've sort of lost track of why I'm trying to dump the 3rd recharger for a battery or booster...

I didn't understand that bit of advice either, but I fly different ships than you guys.  I routinely run 3 rechargers in order to maintain cap stability, but I think his thinking is that a cap battery increases your regen by the side effect of having more cap to charge means each cycle must charge more.  Anyway, I'm interested to know since 3 cap rechargers is standard on my large ships.

[Morat20]

I didn't understand that bit of advice either, but I fly different ships than you guys.  I routinely run 3 rechargers in order to maintain cap stability, but I think his thinking is that a cap battery increases your regen by the side effect of having more cap to charge means each cycle must charge more.  Anyway, I'm interested to know since 3 cap rechargers is standard on my large ships.

Well, it works either way 3xCap Rechargers II or 2xCap Rechargers II + Large Named Cap Battery. The latter is probably cheaper, but I have all the Cap Rechargers already.

I admit, I'd LOVE to skate by on only two mids given over to cap rechargers (I don't see how you shield tankers do it), that way I could fit AB, Drone Nav AND Omni -- but if I ditch the third, I'm not cap stable with a tank running, and I have occasionally forgotten to turn off my repper and I'd prefer not to run totally dry on accident.

[IainC]

I've sort of lost track of why I'm trying to dump the 3rd recharger for a battery or booster...

I didn't understand that bit of advice either, but I fly different ships than you guys.  I routinely run 3 rechargers in order to maintain cap stability, but I think his thinking is that a cap battery increases your regen by the side effect of having more cap to charge means each cycle must charge more.  Anyway, I'm interested to know since 3 cap rechargers is standard on my large ships.

Because you don't need to be cap stable. It's nice but it's not necessary for missioning where you can control the length of your engagements. If you have enough cap recharge to run your tank for 5 minutes or so then you're pretty much golden. Having a cap booster means that if your cap is dropping low you can keep your tank alive for a bit longer and gives you more flexibility in how you use your cap.

With my skills and the setup above, I can keep my tank running continuously (which it never is) for about 6 minutes, on longer stages I need to inject a couple of cap booster 800s but I have only two mids turned over to cap management, leaving me space for my AB, my sensor booster and my drone nav computer - or in your case the AB and both drone mods.

Cap rigs really are your friends here, I'd look at your drone rigs and consider swapping the range one at least for another CCC. You aren't hurting for drone range (and ewar drone interfacing can make up the difference anyway).

[Grand Design]

I can totally understand that.  Obviously, I prefer to be cap stable.  In the ship I'm currently flying, the extra charger is the difference between a <2 min tank and a cap stable tank, and I'll go cap stable over that anytime.  If it were more like five, then I would consider dropping it. 

I should also qualify my statement about 3 rechargers - its actually [number of mids] - 1, since getting rid of the propulsion mod is not an option for me.

[Morat20]

Cap rigs really are your friends here, I'd look at your drone rigs and consider swapping the range one at least for another CCC. You aren't hurting for drone range (and ewar drone interfacing can make up the difference anyway).

I might do that later -- I had the mats for one CC and like 4 of the drone ones (I sold the two spares), so until I get some more of whatever I was short of I'll probably go with the rigs I have.

Even with 2 CCC's, I've got about 10 minutes of tank -- but with the Link Augmentors in the highs, there's no reason to fit a range augmentor in the low. 2xCCC + Drone Speed would be better, and I could use the newly opened mid for a Drone Nav computer (+25% MWD is something I don't want to give up. Ogres are SLOW!).

I guess the best low configuration would be N-types for Thermic, Kinetic, and Explosive, EANM 2, DC 2, LAR 2 and then 1600mm plate. That gives me 12k armor, resists of 72 (EM), 77 (Therm/Kin) and 69 (Explosive), with a LAR.

With that, are there any L4's that that armor and a single LAR can't handle? Would I be better off rigging 2xCCC + Nano Pump or Nanobot Accelerator?

[IainC]

I've never had to fit more than 1 LAR and the only Domi I lost was due to weird lag effects. N-types are the best non faction t1 armour resist mods you can fit but the requirements for t2s aren't all that horrible - as an armour tanker you're normally not hurting for CPU.

[Morat20]

I've never had to fit more than 1 LAR and the only Domi I lost was due to weird lag effects. N-types are the best non faction t1 armour resist mods you can fit but the requirements for t2s aren't all that horrible - as an armour tanker you're normally not hurting for CPU.

Hmm. I think I'll go -- for the moment -- with 3 N-types (Therm, Kin, Explosive) in the lows, the single LAR 2, DC 2, EANM 2 and the 1600 plate. Fitting an EM hardener just wastes the slot -- I'm at 72% without it and I don't recall there being a ton of EM spewers. I'll defintely move to replace the N-Types with T2 when I have the cash (I spent 100 mill on the ship, insurance, fittings, and a few other things -- so I'd like to regen some cash!).

I'm going to stick to my current setup in the mids (3xCap Recharger, 1xAB, 1xOmni) and aim to replace a cap recharger with a Drone Navigation computer when I have the mats for a second CCC. I'll leave the speed boster rig in, but take out the range one. I'll swap out both salvagers for drone Link Augmentors and replace the tractor with another gun. I'll leave the Nos in for now, since I can't hit shit with my guns anyways.

I guess my only concern now is scrambling or damping drones and snipers. I've got an 84k targetting range, and my drones will reach 80+ (Navigation or Scout -- whichever is range --  5/5, Electronic Drone Warfare 4/5, Two Drone Link Augmentors). If I'm getting damped, I suspect I can still shoot the damping ship -- sniping ships are the other concern. Are there any nasty suckers in L4's that like to shoot from 84+ and won't let you close on them?

So I guess onto generalized mission advice for L4's. (I'm not starting for a few days yet -- not until I've got Battleships to at least 3. Plus I have to move systems, and that's a pain. I like where I am. I may just regularly contract salvage and refined minerals back to my current base from the L4 agent I'm looking -- it's only 5 hops, all hi-sec).

[Phildo]

I'm not sure why we're advocating rainbow protection and not rat-specific?  Two rat-specific hardeners and the DCII would be more effective for most missions than the rainbow protection, and you could get away with running a medium armor repper most of the time.  You also won't need the drone tracking link unless you're trying to use ogres to pop frigs or to extend the range of your sentries.

That's all I have for now, last time I tried to run L4s I hadn't gotten active hardeners yet.  I'm gonna give it another shot in a week or two.

I'm impressed that you had the patience to get Heavy Drones V before getting into battleships.  I couldn't stand being so close to a Domi and flying a Myrmidon.

[IainC]

I'm absolutely not advocating rainbow protection. I said in one of my earlier posts that you only need two active hardeners for most missions. Mercs and Rogue Drones are the exception because they fire all damage types at you so you need strong resists across the board.

All other rats fire one primary and one secondary damage type at you depending on their faction. From Grismar's site here's a list

    * Angel: All types, although mostly kinetic and explosive.
    * Amarr Navy: EM and thermal.
    * Ammatar Navy: EM and thermal.
    * Blood: EM and thermal.
    * Caldari Navy: Kinetic and thermal.
    * Centii: EM and thermal.
    * Coreli: Kinetic and thermal.
    * Corpii: EM and thermal.
    * Domination: All types, mostly kinetic and explosive.
    * Gallente Navy: EM and thermal.
    * Gist: All types, mostly kinetic and explosive.
    * Gurista: Kinetic and thermal.
    * Khanid: EM and thermal.
    * Mercenary: All types.
    * Mordus: Kinetic and thermal.
    * Odamian: Kinetic and thermal.
    * Pith: Kinetic and thermal.
    * Rogue drones: All types.
    * Republic fleet: All types, mostly kinetic and explosive.
    * Sansha: EM and thermal.
    * Serpentis: Kinetic and thermal.

If you're only getting Kinetic and Thermal stuff fired at you why do you care what your EM resist is like?

[Morat20]

I'm not sure why we're advocating rainbow protection and not rat-specific?  Two rat-specific hardeners and the DCII would be more effective for most missions than the rainbow protection, and you could get away with running a medium armor repper most of the time.  You also won't need the drone tracking link unless you're trying to use ogres to pop frigs or to extend the range of your sentries.

That's all I have for now, last time I tried to run L4s I hadn't gotten active hardeners yet.  I'm gonna give it another shot in a week or two.

I'm impressed that you had the patience to get Heavy Drones V before getting into battleships.  I couldn't stand being so close to a Domi and flying a Myrmidon.

I don't use guns. What the heck else should I put in the lows? :) EANM, DC, plate -- it's either another large repper that I apparently won't need or.....more hardeners. Plus, I fly a lot of merc missions. I don't know why, but at least half the ones I draw are against mercs.

Right now I'm looking at N-Type thermal, kin, explosve, 1600 plate, large repper, EANM, DC 2. I'm not sure what else is worthwhile to put in there if I pull a plate. Power Diagnostics?

[Phildo]

Inertial stabilizer?

[Mook]

Also, I think I will have to train up the skills that boost the effectiveness of your active hardeners. :) To at least level 2 or 3.

Don't.

Armor resist compensation skills give 5% per level to resists of passive resistance plates, or 3% per level to the resist of active hardeners when they are not active.

Unless you're doing it to boost the resists you get out of the 1 EANM II. And even then, the 5% per leve increase is not total resist, it's 5% of the resist that the plating gives you. So if you have, say, level 1 in Thermal armor compensation, and you equip a EANM II, which is +20% to all resists, then you would have a EANM II which gives +20% to EM, Kinetic and Explosive, and +21% to Thermal (20 + 20*5%).

[Morat20]

Unless you're doing it to boost the resists you get out of the 1 EANM II. And even then, the 5% per leve increase is not total resist, it's 5% of the resist that the plating gives you. So if you have, say, level 1 in Thermal armor compensation, and you equip a EANM II, which is +20% to all resists, then you would have a EANM II which gives +20% to EM, Kinetic and Explosive, and +21% to Thermal (20 + 20*5%).

Hey, 1% is 1% -- not bad for a 21 minute skill. Of course, I haven't priced it.

Phildo: I could fit all the lows with intertial stabilizers and it'd still move like a whale.

[Phildo]

But it'd be more like an orca and less like a gray whale.

[Morat20]

But it'd be more like an orca and less like a gray whale.

Well, in all honesty, my current approach is:

1) Warp in.
2) Point a gun at a likely group.
3) Fire a pair of shots.
4) Release the appropriate drones.
5) When that spawn is down to two or three ships, pick another likely group and fire.

I only MOVE when they're more than 80km off. This is L3's of course -- I aggro entire rooms just to get them to cluster around me for easier salvaging later. I'm worried about the L4's, though. One reason I made a trip to round up and put datacores on the market. 100 million in case a pop. Given I'm working for a company I have an 8+ standing with, and the L4 agent I'm looking at's effecitive quality is 40, with my luck I'll pull Worlds Collide or The Blockade as my first L4.

[Stephen Zepp]

Also, I think I will have to train up the skills that boost the effectiveness of your active hardeners. :) To at least level 2 or 3.

Don't.

Armor resist compensation skills give 5% per level to resists of passive resistance plates, or 3% per level to the resist of active hardeners when they are not active.

Unless you're doing it to boost the resists you get out of the 1 EANM II. And even then, the 5% per leve increase is not total resist, it's 5% of the resist that the plating gives you. So if you have, say, level 1 in Thermal armor compensation, and you equip a EANM II, which is +20% to all resists, then you would have a EANM II which gives +20% to EM, Kinetic and Explosive, and +21% to Thermal (20 + 20*5%).

Thanks for noting that--I had -just- added them to my primary plan.

Pretty freaking worthless skill for active hardeners :(

[apocrypha]

I don't use guns. What the heck else should I put in the lows? :) EANM, DC, plate -- it's either another large repper that I apparently won't need or.....more hardeners. Plus, I fly a lot of merc missions. I don't know why, but at least half the ones I draw are against mercs.

Right now I'm looking at N-Type thermal, kin, explosve, 1600 plate, large repper, EANM, DC 2. I'm not sure what else is worthwhile to put in there if I pull a plate. Power Diagnostics?

Cap power relays? If you're struggling for cap then CPR's give the best recharge rate of any cap mod and since you're armour tanking you don't care about the shield recharge penalty.

I hate to say it but Level 4 missions is something in EVE that benefits greatly from 2-boxing. Once you get the hang of the agro control in different missions, having a 2nd battleship with remote reppers, repair drones, target painters/tracking links and lots of salvagers can halve your mission times. And since you can buy GTC's with ISK a 2nd account pretty much pays for itself in no time.

However, meta-gaming aside, the dominix is a great ship for level 4's and your setups look good. What I'd suggest when you first start doing the level 4's is that you make sure you know what to expect - use EVE Survival and EVE Info, err on the side of heavy tanking at first and be prepared to warp out. Pop the scramblers first, always, and be aligned for warp out. To begin with I'd suggest dropping the drone mods and just having LOTS of tank and cap - better to have a low DPS at first but minimize the risk of losing the ship. Also make sure you've got some medium drones as well as the heavies in case your ogres can't track a pesky frigate that's scrambling you and you need to get out.

Check in EFT too, are your guns really adding significantly to the DPS? My drone skills are a lot better than my gunnery skills so I actually only use 1 small gun for agroing on my mission domi. Rest of the high slots are tractors, salvagers and a Drone Link Augmentor. If you're running missions in a busy level 4 hub then being able to at least salvage the wrecks during the mission can often save you from getting some leech warping in and stealing them all before you go get your dedicated salvage'n'loot boat. Of course if your gunnery skills are good then they're worth using cos of the domi bonus :)

The jump from level 3's to level 4's is a big one, but if you play it safe at first you'll be fine.

[IainC]

I don't use guns. What the heck else should I put in the lows? :) EANM, DC, plate -- it's either another large repper that I apparently won't need or.....more hardeners. Plus, I fly a lot of merc missions. I don't know why, but at least half the ones I draw are against mercs.

Right now I'm looking at N-Type thermal, kin, explosve, 1600 plate, large repper, EANM, DC 2. I'm not sure what else is worthwhile to put in there if I pull a plate. Power Diagnostics?

Don't discount guns just because you're a drone specialist in a drone boat. I don't have my EFT loadouts here at work but something like 40% of my DPS comes from guns (with 5 large rails and one MFS) - despite the fact that I have 4 million SPs in drone skills and Gallente BS V.

I don't recommend a big plate for BS PvE. It will slow you down a lot and you shouldn't need that much extra HP if your tank is any good. A regenerative plate gives you a nice extra cushion with none of the overheads of a fat-ass plate.

[nurtsi]

Here's what I use. Doesn't require much of skills. Kills anything (well 2,5m bounty is the biggest I've killed with this, dunno if there's bigger).

H: 5x 350mm Railgun I, Drone Link Augmentator
M: 4x Cap Recharger II, Drone Navigation Computer
L: LAR II, DC II, explosive hardener, kinetic hardener, thermal hardener, 1600mm rolled tungsten plates, EAMN
R: Ancillary Current Router, CCC

Drones: 5x Heavy, 5x Medium, 5x Light, 5x Warden, 5x Medium Armor Maintenance

Omni-tank ftw. Can't be arsed to figure out what mobs and damage types are in a mission. I used to use 5 Cap Recharger IIs to get it cap stable, but I can drop one for faster drones and it doesn't seem to make things that much more difficult. You just can't run the repper forever if you're shooting.