Dieting again.

[Nebu]

This is not a crash diet versus healthy diet and exercise argument, this is a crash diet versus staying overweight argument. 

He lost a hell of a lot of weight and he's not dead so whatever he's doing it worked, you can't really argue with that.

Well stated.  Schild has done an incredible job through sheer determination. 

From a healthcare standpoint, the method isn't ideal but it's tough to argue with the outcome.  I certainly support a method such as this (with proper supplementation, of course) over something like gastric bypass or banding.     

[Valmorian]

He lost a hell of a lot of weight and he's not dead so whatever he's doing it worked, you can't really argue with that.

I've known heroin addicts that lost a lot of weight and aren't dead either, that doesn't make heroin a good idea for weight loss. :P 

There's nothing wrong with trying to encourage someone to try a healthier method of losing weight, and people who constantly say "I just can't do it!" MAY be right, but effort counts.

[schild]

You did not just compare a heroin addict to someone who eats very specific (and nutritious foods) for 12 weeks.

Oh, you did.

Don't be a tool.

[Valmorian]

You did not just compare a heroin addict to someone who eats very specific (and nutritious foods) for 12 weeks.

Oh, you did.

Don't be a tool.

I'm countering the asinine claim that "Anything that works is good!" that is seemingly being thrown about here.  Crash dieting is NOT good for you.

[Mortriden]

Lots of words

So yeah, any insights/suggestions anybody has would be appreciated.

I've got a couple of books on the subject, talked to my doc, etc, etc.  General consensus so far is that weight training before cardio has a greater effect in a shorter amount of time.  Weight training, specifically free-weights, consumes your easily available stored quick energy.  Then when you switch to cardio after your weights your body is forced to burn stored fat.  Your cardio heart-rate also comes into play.  If I remember right the basic formula is 220-[your age] x 0.8.  That is supposedly your optimal fat burn heart rate. 

I haven't changed my diet much, and following the above for three times a week and the last three months, I've lost roughly 25lbs and replaced it with muscle. 

But, I don't have near as difficult a target as Schild-y does and I have an awesome fitness program through my work.  It's now part of my routine during the week, and I agree; it's made it much easier. 

[Llava]

Anyone have any steroid recommendations for me?   

[Miasma]

You did not just compare a heroin addict to someone who eats very specific (and nutritious foods) for 12 weeks.

Oh, you did.

Don't be a tool.

I'm countering the asinine claim that "Anything that works is good!" that is seemingly being thrown about here.  Crash dieting is NOT good for you.

FFS, no one is saying crash dieting is good for you they are saying it's a hell of a lot better than not losing the weight at all.

Heroin, wow, if only I could I could figure out a way to ratchet up the hyperbole to trigger Godwin's law.

Edit: I just thought of a way.

[Valmorian]

Heroin, wow, if only I could I could figure out a way to ratchet up the hyperbole to trigger Godwin's law.

Wow, it's like people here have never heard of refuting something through absurdity.  Assuming that I meant heroin use was the SAME THING as crash dieting is just demonstrating stupidity on a staggering level.  I'm drawing an absurd conclusion from statements like "He lost a hell of a lot of weight and he's not dead so whatever he's doing it worked, you can't really argue with that."  OF COURSE you can argue with that, I was just showing what kind of silly nonsense such a statement would imply.

Here, let me spell it out for those who can't seem to understand: I am not implying that heroin use and crash dieting are the same thing.  REALLY.

As for the remainder, about whether crash dieting or keeping the weight on is healthier?  That depends.  People underestimate the damage that rapid weight loss can cause, particularly since in the vast majority of cases the weight loss is simply temporary.

[Ookii]

As for the remainder, about whether crash dieting or keeping the weight on is healthier?  That depends.  People underestimate the damage that rapid weight loss can cause, particularly since in the vast majority of cases the weight loss is simply temporary.

Oh so you're a doctor now?   I say people OVERESTIMATE the damage rapid weight loss can cause, in fact my statement encompasses more people than yours, so now I'm undeniably right.

Stop being a retard and crawl your way to another thread for godsakes.

[stray]

It's not a touchy subject, you're just being a retarded oppressive assclown about it.

That's pretty much all there is to it. Your OPINION can lick my ass.

It is a touchy subject if you reply to me like that. It's like you think I'm here to ridicule you, but really, I'm not. I haven't called you names, made jokes at your expense, or anything of the sort. I have no interest in that. I'm just saying "Hey man, don't hurt yourself. Here's what could happen..." That doesn't mean I'm being "oppressive". And because I point out the virtues of exercise over all other routes doesn't mean I'm oppressive.

I do admit to being relentless however. But I've pretty much conveyed all of the points I've wanted to make. So I'll leave you be. Good luck.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Man this thread is all over the place. Honestly the only thing I can add is congrats on losing the weight. wait, no i can add more....I think it is cool that you had the discipline to eat right, but from what I saw, you were eating the absolute bear minimum. Like you were starving yourself while simutlaniously tricking your body into thinking it had to burn off all this fat. I really don't think I know what was happening to your body to make you drop all that weight so fast, cause I am not a doctor, but I think that all that discipline would have been better spent on normal diet and exorcise. At least you would have felt better and been more enjoyable to be around. as it is, your diet has made you all angry and snappy for a long while now and I think I like fat Schild better. He was nice-ish.

Anyway, make sure you start some sort of cardio-whatever stuff after you wreck your body some more, so that you don't gain it all back.

Congrats on the weight loss, you look GGGGRRRRRREEEEAT! 

[lamaros]

He lost a hell of a lot of weight and he's not dead so whatever he's doing it worked, you can't really argue with that.

Dead/Alive is the only criteria that matters!

Your diet has made you all angry and snappy for a long while now and I think I like fat Schild better. He was nice-ish.

I wish I used to be fat and a smoker. It would give me some great reasons for why I'm always being a dick. 

[Llava]

I hear that Trimspa stuff works pretty well.

I'm being a smartass, I'm actually on schild's side here but it's easier to come up with jokes for the other side.

[Montague]

Gonna snag a Baconator or two on the way home from work. Who's with me??!! 

[stray]

I had to wikipedia that... Never heard of it! I'd have to take mine without mayonnaise though.

[Signe]

The Bible says fat people are jolly.

I'm buying a pound of thick cut peppered bacon this week and I plan to make something with it. 

[Montague]

I had to wikipedia that... Never heard of it! I'd have to take mine without mayonnaise though.

That's like doing Paris Hilton bareback and insisting on washing your hands afterwards.

[stray]

It isn't the health factor that puts me off. Bacon and mayo just sounds nasty. 

[Llava]

Plus she does seem like she'd be... sticky.

[Montague]

The mayonnaise loses itself in an avalanche of meat and cheese and fat. I wish I had a pic of Peter Griffin having a McStroke but my Google-fu is failing me.

[Dash]

...

My only concern is weather I'm doing enough cardio to be burning fat as efficiently as I can.  As was recommended, I basically try to do High Impact Interval Training on a workout bike at the gym (Its alot easier for me to control intervals on a machine than trying to feel it out by jogging/sprinting, heh).  After a 2 minutes warm up at lvl 5, I go 1 minute at lvl 7, then increase it to 9, 11, 13 for each minute after that (making sure to go all out at lvl 13).  After a minute at 13, I drop back to 7 and do the cycle over again.  I do this for 20 minutes straight, and by the end, I usually have sweat flowing down my face and my thighs feel like they are on fire.

However, I keep reading that 20 minutes is the minimum you should be doing for cardio, and read about alot of people going 45 minutes at stuff....  Should I try to tough it out much longer than 20 minutes using the HIIT method (I've tried, and I can only really make it another cycle or two), or switch to a somewhat less straining cardio method that I can go longer with?  The biggest goal to my dieting/exercising is to get rid of as much of this extra flab as I can, and while I also want to build up muscle (of which I have little, heh), using the best fat killing routine is my main concern right now.

I just guess I’m not sure what sort of progress I’m suppose to be seeing by 5 weeks, heh.  I do slip up on the diet sometimes (on weekends sometimes I run out of prepared food and will eat something normal/non-diety around the house, or just go on a beer drinking bing on Sundays).  I allow myself a few vices, like 1 beer every few days.  But I wouldn’t think that would slow me down to badly…

So yeah, any insights/suggestions anybody has would be appreciated.

So, couple of things.  First congrats, because hitting the gym and modifying your eating are huge steps and you will see success without a doubt. 

Cardio can be segmented into high intensity (HIIT) and steady state.  HIIT will ramp up your metabolism and the effect can last for days, fancy anagram is EPOC:  Exess post-exercies oxygen consumption.  Overall it will burn more callories in 15 mins than a long steady state cardio session.  You'll get different people reccommending different things.  Personally I've seen more people mix HIIT with weights, more fun and dynamic and less chance of burning muscle.  HIIT is meant to be short and really intense, so dont stretch it out or you're really just doing steady state.  A good idea of what HIIT is would be to try this:  1 minute jogging at a decent pace and 30 seconds of a full out sprint.  Not on a treadmill, on a track would be best.  By sprint I mean run like you are chasing a guy who just punched your girlfriend in the face.  As hard as you can.  It's quite a shock if you havent sprinted since you were a kid.  You'll be done in 5 minutes of that. 

3 days at the gym, and HIIT off days is plenty for now.  If you want to throw a steady state day in there that's fine, but I dont think it's needed.  Be sure to mix things up after a while (5 weeks you start to get used to a routine and should think about switching it up pretty soon), and check your diet if you hit a plateau.  But overall sounds like you're on the right track to me.

[Calantus]

Anyone have any steroid recommendations for me?   

Well I do ventolin sometimes when I'm exercising. It helps with the breathing.

[Margalis]

Really the main thing about workout routines is just doing them. Yes, there are better and worse routines but 95% of the people who fail fail because they just don't stay serious about them. It's one thing if you are an elite-level athlete like myself (sport: ab flexing) or a body builder but for normal people just sticking with it is the most important thing, where sticking with it means both showing up and constantly pushing yourself.

[DraconianOne]

Jesus Christ can't you shut the hell up already.

I would leave talk of the ramifications of such a diet to qualified professionals such as DOCTORS or NUTRITIONISTS.

I have a certificate to show that I'm qualiified as a nutritional advisor - does that count?    Admittedly I have to redo it or a similar course to claim the points needed to qualify for the points needed to get onto the UK Register of Exercise Professionals and I've never used it to earn money but hey, I'm sure it's around somewhere.  Probably in the same pile of crap as my IBM professional certifications.

[Roac]

Schild, next time do something less controversial.  Like taking up smoking.  Or eating children (nobody likes the whiny ones anyway). 

[Valmorian]

Oh so you're a doctor now? 

Clearly one cannot talk about a subject unless one has a doctorate in the field.  Of course that makes perfect sense. 

But hey, if you don't want to believe that crash dieting might be less healthy than simply being overweight, why not try investigating it?  Go to the library, talk to a nutritionist or your family doctor (like I did last year when I was contemplating a number of crash diets) and ask..

[Signe]

Oh so you're a doctor now?

Clearly one cannot talk about a subject unless one has a doctorate in the field.  Of course that makes perfect sense. 

But hey, if you don't want to believe that crash dieting might be less healthy than simply being overweight, why not try investigating it?  Go to the library, talk to a nutritionist or your family doctor (like I did last year when I was contemplating a number of crash diets) and ask..

That's way too much bother.  I'll just wait and see who dies first.

[DraconianOne]

Your cardio heart-rate also comes into play.  If I remember right the basic formula is 220-[your age] x 0.8.  That is supposedly your optimal fat burn heart rate. 

Fat burning zones are a bit misleading.  Research¹ has shown that calories burned while exercising at a certain rate (which equates to about 50% VO2Max or ~65-70%MHR) are made up of a greater percentage of fat - 50% or so.  Higher intensity exercise will burn a lower percentage of fat (~33% at 75%VO2Max/85%MHR).  All sounds good so far until you actually work out the maths:

A 30 min, low intensity workout (70%MHR) would burn about 350 Kcal, 50% of which are made up of fat giving us 175 Kcal from fat.
A 30 min, high intensity workout (85%MHR) would burn about 525 Kcal, 33% of which are made up fat giving us - whaddya know?  175 Kcal from fat!

Add to that the fact that the EPOC that Dash mentioned will last longer after a high intensity workout thereby burning more calories overall than a low intensity workout of the same duration. 

Where the low intensity workout really comes into it's own is after working out for a long time - by which I mean 2 - 3+ hours when the glycogen has been depleted and the fat stores become the primary source of energy. 



¹Determination of the exercise intensity that elicits maximal fat oxidation. (Achten, Gleeson & Jeukendrup) Med Sci Sport Exer 2002, 34(1)

[DraconianOne]

But hey, if you don't want to believe that crash dieting might be less healthy than simply being overweight, why not try investigating it?  Go to the library, talk to a nutritionist or your family doctor (like I did last year when I was contemplating a number of crash diets) and ask..

To be fair, it did work for Christian Bale who reputedly only ate a tin of tuna and an apple a day to lose 63lbs for The Machinist:

[stray]

He also said he couldn't even do 1 pushup afterwards. At an emaciated 120 lbs, that's just about 70lbs. Eww.

[naum]

There's a reason to exercise that doesn't have anything to do with your weight — the health of your brain.

The science is solid that increasing oxygen flow to your brain will pay immense dividends for your mental acuity, especially as you age. Far less chance of dementia, Alzheimers, etc.… as well as keeping you cognitively sharp even after you are 90+.

It doesn't mean you have to signup for a grueling spartan routine — 3-4X+ a week, walking >30 minutes would even suffice.

[Llava]

Then how come jocks are so dumb, eh smart guy?

EDIT

I received a serious response, so I now feel obligated to point out that the above sentence was made as a joke.  Thought the "eh smart guy?" ending would've given it away.

[naum]

Then how come jocks are so dumb, eh smart guy?

It's not a continuum where more exercise == more brainpower. And strenuous, arduous exertion is not better than just over the bare minimum requirement that the body and brain need.
 
Our bodies evolved and are suited for walking average of 5 - 15 miles per day.

Again, the science is clear on the matter — don't have the time to ferret out a bunch of links for you, but here's one on the theme:
http://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/guide/train-your-brain-with-exercise

[Sky]

Then how come jocks are so dumb, eh smart guy?

[naum]

I received a serious response, so I now feel obligated to point out that the above sentence was made as a joke.  Thought the "eh smart guy?" ending would've given it away.

Yes, perhaps I've responded to one too many Dash posts…