PC gaming - thoughts?

[Riggswolfe]

I was considering upgrading my PC to the new shininess level, which would mean a new motherboard, probably new ram, two new CPUs and two new graphics cards. I was thinking about this because then I could get whatever games I wanted for a year or two. Then I did the price in my head.

WTF? Is PC gaming finally just getting too expensive? I bitched about PS3 price but it's nothing compared to having a decent system for PC gaming, a genre which has less interesting games every year. In the last year I've gotten: Civ IV, Dawn of War, and the Witcher for my PC. And I'm the type that usually buys at least one, if not more, games a month.

So, thoughts? Am I the only one that's wondering why I keep upgrading my PC?

[ajax34i]

Well, I paid $2000.00 for my dual 8800 gt system (has 4 gigs of ram, dual 320 hard drives, motherboard that can take 3 cards in SLI, and 1 processor) and I expect it to last 3 years.  And it might, too (I figure the SATA, PCI-E, and DDR3 standards will last that long, not sure about LGA775).  Similar system from Dell... $2500.

PC's are getting cheaper, IMO.  But, there seem to be fewer games (that I'm interested in) made for them.

It'll probably be the last upgrade I do.  I'm waiting for the prices of HDTV's to come down some more, and then I'm probably switching to a big one + Xbox or PS3.   We only have CRT TV's at our house right now, kinda sucks.

[Arrrgh]

I was considering upgrading my PC to the new shininess level, which would mean a new motherboard, probably new ram, two new CPUs and two new graphics cards. I was thinking about this because then I could get whatever games I wanted for a year or two. Then I did the price in my head.

WTF? Is PC gaming finally just getting too expensive? I bitched about PS3 price but it's nothing compared to having a decent system for PC gaming, a genre which has less interesting games every year. In the last year I've gotten: Civ IV, Dawn of War, and the Witcher for my PC. And I'm the type that usually buys at least one, if not more, games a month.

So, thoughts? Am I the only one that's wondering why I keep upgrading my PC?

You don't need two vid cards to play any of the games you mentioned. I'm also not sure why you need two CPUs when you can get quad core single chips now.

[ajax34i]

I agree, too.  Don't pay 5x as much for a 10% increase in performance.  A core2 duo or quad processor is good enough.  I went for 2 vid cards, but 1 would have probably been sufficient for a while, and then I could have paid $250 for a newer one in a year (instead of 2 x $250 now).

[Sky]

Two cpu and two gpu? 

[Dash]

Yah the two and two is killing you heh.  You could get a plenty fast PC for way under a grand including monitor and all the extras.  Upgrade and you're talking easily under 500 bucks for a new CPU, GPU, and Motherboard , and that's for some really nice stuff.  It's not SLI 8800 Ultras but you know... depends on what you need it for.

I'll probably upgrade myself as some games I'm watching come closer to being released.  Definitely some good games out though on PC to upgrade for if you cant run them well.  Orange Box and CoD4 come immediately to mind.  Bioshock, Mass Effect etc.  I'm looking forward to Warhammer Online and Starcraft II is coming out... eventually.  Will be nice to run them with all the eye candy.

[Stormwaltz]

My current PC was a $3000 rig bought four years ago. It was not bleeding edge - it was full of solid high-average hardware (256 MB Radeon 9800, Athlon 64 3200+, 1 GB RAM). I only really splurged on the Audigy ZX Platinum sound card. It runs most modern games with little difficulty. I don't get all the latest PixelShader 3-point-WTF bells and shinies... but I'm not much of a graphics whore. The extent of my indulgence is cranking up all the landscape details in LotRO. I like me my horizons.

My point being that well-chosen PC hardware can last you  for 3-5 years. Maybe more if you're less concerned about shinies. If what you've got still works well, don't upgrade now. You know everything will get faster/cheaper/better/more when you DO have to.

[Signe]

The computer I'm using right now to play a couple of the latest beta tests of what will be allegedly the biggie games launched this year is a piece of poo.   It's a 2005 open box, Athlon 64 3200+,  that cost about $500. It was dusty when I bought it, too.  Dammit.  I put in a couple a gig of cheap ram (to make it 2) and a Geforce 7800 GT.  I can play any game out now plus both betas at high settings with now problems.  I reckon I have at least another year of life in this POS.  Maybe two.  If I wanted to do anything graphically fancy other than gaming, I'd use a Mac, anyway.  We have a house full of those things.  But for gaming?  I'll use it until I have to put my game settings so low that my butt goes blurry.

[Grand Design]

I still use a P4 that I built about four years ago.  It still runs AGP video, although I upgrade the card once a year.  I can play anything on it.  CoD4 in the highest widescreen resolution with bells and whistles, no problem.  I had an itch about a year ago to build a new one, but after seeing my "old" PC whip out BioShock, I've put it off for a while. 

So, thoughts? Am I the only one that's wondering why I keep upgrading my PC?

I like upgrading my PC, personally.  It reminds me that, for once, I did the right thing by not running out and getting a quad core pci express dual super bionic graphics card with chips.  Not that many developers are even taking advantage of all these redundant components anyway.

As to the relevancy of PC gaming - as long as there are MMOs and FPS', arguably the two largest and most attractive subsets of gaming, there will be PCs to play them on.  When I'm playing Spreadsheets In Space, I need at least two machines, and preferably a laptop for quick web browsing.  I can't do that on a PS3.  It would never, ever work.

[Riggswolfe]

Well, since I get a discount for my state being on an exclusive Dell contract I got a Dell. Here's the specs:

    Intel  Core Quad-Core (8MB L2 cache,2.4GHz,1066FSB)
   3GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 800MHz - 4 DIMMs
    Dual nVidia GeForce 8800 GT 512MB
    250GB - Seagate 7200RPM, SATA 3.0Gb/s, 8MB Cache
     Genuine Windows Vista Home Premium
   Single Drive: 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) w/double layer write capability
    Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
    AGEIA Phys physics accelerator
    Windows Vista Premium
   Included 10GB DataSafe Online Backup for 1Year

I'm a little worried that the processor may be a bit low. The ram I can switch out later for better sticks if needed. I went with Vista to get DirectX 10 and because there wasn't much of a savings benefit. In the past I've always built my PCs but honestly, I'm tired of doing that. This has a tower so I should be able to upgrade fairly easily on my own if needed. I also have my own sound card in my current PC I can yank out and plop into this one instead of the integrated sound.

Now I just need to get a better monitor than my CRT POS and I'm set. I think. Any comments?

[Grand Design]

...and all my talk about upgrading goes right out the window as I sit here drooling over those specs.  Nice one.

I snagged a 22 inch LG LCD for a decent price and I am in love with it.  I write it little notes during my lunch break.

[Riggswolfe]

I checked the power supply, since I was a bit concerned. 750 watts. For those of you who are curious this is a modified 720 XPS. Dell's "gaming" computer.

[ajax34i]

I got almost that spec, like I said.  Your CPU is quad-core 2.4 GHz, mine is dual-core 3.0 GHz, and all things considered, the difference between 2.4 and 3.0 isn't that big.  Esp. since you have two extra cores (dunno if current games make good use of multi cores, but eh).

Dell uses the BTX form factor, I think, which might force you to buy upgrades from them, if any. 

If the power supply is 700W, I think that's good enough, that's what I have.  Your only issue will be finding a UPS that can support 700W, heh.  My lights dim briefly when I turn the PC on, and I know that during summer we have (under)voltage problems, so I need a UPS for the voltage regulation, but they seem to run $300+.

[Riggswolfe]

Dell uses the BTX form factor, I think, which might force you to buy upgrades from them, if any. 

Yeah, that's why I usually just build my PCs. But honestly, I'm too short on time to do that these days. And too lazy. The last one I bought the parts and my friend put it together in exchange for my old CPU and MB. I could do it I just didn't want to deal with it. Now that tech support is my job I have even less urge to build PCs at home.

And it is definitely BTX. I don't like that much but I can swap out PCI components, ram, and hard drives without needing them so I should be fine on that aspect.

[Engels]

If you wanna cut down on costs, don't go for the dual vid card. A single GT should tear through most of the stuff out there today. Also, what's with the Data safe 10gig online backup? How much are they asking for it and what's the attraction above, say, just a USB 60gig hard drive?

[Riggswolfe]

If you wanna cut down on costs, don't go for the dual vid card. A single GT should tear through most of the stuff out there today. Also, what's with the Data safe 10gig online backup? How much are they asking for it and what's the attraction above, say, just a USB 60gig hard drive?

The online backup was included. I went through the list of customizations and taking it off saved me $0. I'm guessing they've got some kind of promotional agreement or something.

As for the Dual graphics cards, it came with one but I added the second because..errr...I really wanted it. I know. Silly. And un-needed.

[fuser]

Well, since I get a discount for my state being on an exclusive Dell contract I got a Dell. Here's the specs:

    Intel  Core Quad-Core (8MB L2 cache,2.4GHz,1066FSB)
   3GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 800MHz - 4 DIMMs
    Dual nVidia GeForce 8800 GT 512MB
    250GB - Seagate 7200RPM, SATA 3.0Gb/s, 8MB Cache
     Genuine Windows Vista Home Premium
   Single Drive: 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) w/double layer write capability
    Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
    AGEIA Phys physics accelerator
    Windows Vista Premium
   Included 10GB DataSafe Online Backup for 1Year

I'm a little worried that the processor may be a bit low. The ram I can switch out later for better sticks if needed. I went with Vista to get DirectX 10 and because there wasn't much of a savings benefit. In the past I've always built my PCs but honestly, I'm tired of doing that. This has a tower so I should be able to upgrade fairly easily on my own if needed. I also have my own sound card in my current PC I can yank out and plop into this one instead of the integrated sound.

Now I just need to get a better monitor than my CRT POS and I'm set. I think. Any comments?

I had a Dell E521 AMD system for a long while but went back to building my own system when I needed to upgrade.

What model is this an XPS? Throw out the physics card it's useless(if you can), throw out the ram and buy online(unless its the dell deal of the day ;) ), no need for an external sound card imho, use the savings and buy a 22"+ LCD.

I have an Optiplex 755 with a Q6600 next to me which is another great platform for gaming.. say something like an Optiplex 330 with a q6600 + after market video card (only issue is the 755/330 will only support single slot cards say a 8800gt) + psu or a vostro 200.

Either way it's a good system. I love how quiet the BTX layouts are! The q6600 is a decent chip but remember your betting on threading in the future vs high clock speed right now. If its strictly gaming try to get a dual core or hold off for a bit and dell should have the new 45nm quad core revision soon (q9300) 

[Riggswolfe]

It's already in production, I don't think I can make any changes now. I threw in the physics card just for the hell of it. It was like $150. I didn't buy an external sound card, I'm taking the one out of my old computer so no worries there.

And it's an XPS 720. The rig is mostly for Gaming though I do some other stuff on my PC these days. Again, I could have swapped out the quad core but since it's in production now I think I'm committed. No biggie. Alot of the stuff on it is the cheap stuff, the only add-ons is the extra vid card (cause I wanted it to be honest not for any practical reason), the physics card (ditto). The ram was "standard" and I saved $0 for lowering the amount.

I suppose I should have removed the physics card and swapped for a dual core with a slightly higher FSB and 3.0 gig instead of 2.4 but hmmmm...

[fuser]

I suppose I should have removed the physics card and swapped for a dual core with a slightly higher FSB and 3.0 gig instead of 2.4 but hmmmm...

Don't worry about it too much your going to be GPU limited these days anyhoo. If you do any divx encoding or folding@home your going to be in heaven with that machine over the dual core.

Have fun it's a very nice machine

(fyi: im running an e2160 @2.5ghz with an 8800gt on a 22" LCD 1680x1050 with WoW/LFS/TF2/CS at full detail at great rates)

[Riggswolfe]

Ok, I ripped out the PhysX accelerator and upgraded Vista to Ultimate. I think. The Indian guy at Dell was confused and I practically had to yell to tell him I did not want to DOWNGRADE my version of Vista and get rid of my graphics cards. Needless to say I'll be going over the order confirmation email with a fine-toothed comb.

[Riggswolfe]

Ok, it looks like things are changed. Bye bye physics card, hello Vista Ultimate. I kept the quad core despite wavering because I'm planning a dual monitor setup, WAR/WOW/Conan/whatever in one screen, Allakhazam/Gamefaqs/etc in the other.

[MrHat]

Might as well roll Vista 64 and add a gig of ram.

[Sky]

WoW should never be used as a bragging point for graphics prowess. Try running EQ2 at max settings, it lays the hurt on my overclocked 8800 gtx (e6600, 2GB ram). EQ2 and Crysis are really the only things to lay the hurt on the rig, the Crysis demo pumps heat up to 85C but runs smoothly for the most part.

[fuser]

WoW should never be used as a bragging point for graphics prowess.

Giving an example that even my lowly budget CPU/middle of the road GPU isn't the limiting factor on my gaming experience at resolution.

WAR/WOW/Conan/whatever in one screen

[OcellotJenkins]

the Crysis demo pumps heat up to 85C but runs smoothly for the most part.

Holy fucking shit man, surely you don't push it that hard often.  I doubt you'd get a year out of the CPU with it getting that hot.

[Jimbo]

What is a good range to keep your gear running at in degree's?  I keep mine about about 34 C on CPU and 24 HDD, but mine is getting long in tooth (hence the need to upgrade mine and my kids and make it last 5 years...damn college!). 

[Sky]

the Crysis demo pumps heat up to 85C but runs smoothly for the most part.

Holy fucking shit man, surely you don't push it that hard often.  I doubt you'd get a year out of the CPU with it getting that hot.

Normally 70C under load (EQ2 with all bells + whistles).

One reason I've been debating whether I want to get Crysis or not. It's the only thing that cranks it that high. FEAR might push it to 74C or so.

[OcellotJenkins]

the Crysis demo pumps heat up to 85C but runs smoothly for the most part.

Holy fucking shit man, surely you don't push it that hard often.  I doubt you'd get a year out of the CPU with it getting that hot.

Normally 70C under load (EQ2 with all bells + whistles).

One reason I've been debating whether I want to get Crysis or not. It's the only thing that cranks it that high. FEAR might push it to 74C or so.

Granted I'm not very up to date with the latest processor specs, but back when I was building AMD machines 65-75C was considered critical territory for CPU temp and 85C would pretty much result in a dead chip.  If you can run 70C for extended periods of time then I guess things have improved quite a bit.

[tkinnun0]

I recently upgraded my computer for Crysis. Out went 2 SLId 7800GTs, replaced with a single 8800GT. The rest of the machine (AMD Athlon 64 X2@2.21GHz, 2GB RAM) stayed the same.

I get framerates ranging from high 20s (the beginning) to slideshow (some scripted sequences, end of end-boss fight) running in 1600x1200 with very high settings in DX9. Plenty playable for me.

I considered getting another 8800GT, but the framerate increase would have only have been something like 33%, which I don't think is very good value. The GPU is definitely the bottleneck in Crysis, I expect that trend to continue and GHz numbers seem to have plateaued, so my CPU and RAM should be fine for at least 3 years, even if I switch to Vista at some point.

[Sky]

Granted I'm not very up to date with the latest processor specs, but back when I was building AMD machines 65-75C was considered critical territory for CPU temp and 85C would pretty much result in a dead chip.  If you can run 70C for extended periods of time then I guess things have improved quite a bit.

GPU. CPU probably doesn't run over 40C, I haven't really looked too closely at it since the initial stress-testing, so I can't recall the exact figure. It's a Core 2 Duo with a Scythe Ninja chop-socky super 120mm fan thingy, so it's pretty cool.

Note on Crysis - make sure you hack it for the "dx10-only" effects. They look wicked.

[SnakeCharmer]

What's the usual op temp for a GPU?  SysFan is telling me that SOMETHING is running at over 100C at idle, which I find hard to believe.  No problems with the system, but it's always bugging me that it actually IS running that hot.  FWIW, Q6600 and 8800GTS

[MahrinSkel]

What's the usual op temp for a GPU?  SysFan is telling me that SOMETHING is running at over 100C at idle, which I find hard to believe.  No problems with the system, but it's always bugging me that it actually IS running that hot.  FWIW, Q6600 and 8800GTS

I would say that would have to be a malfunctioning/disconnected sensor.  If anything was actually running that hot, you'd be smelling it.

--Dave

[Tale]

I took a very easy and cheap path to Core 2 Duo and 8800, running stuff like Crysis and COD4 on a Dell 24" monitor (flawlessly at 1920x1200).

I started with a P4 2.4GHz system with 1Gb of DDR333 RAM and a 6800GS AGP.

I rebuilt that on an ASRock 775Dual-VSTA motherboard (supports both AGP and PCI-e, DDR and DDRII), upgraded to the latest bios (compatibility and stability), with a very cheap Core 2 Duo E6300 processor. I think it cost me about $200 all up, and that was more than a year ago.

This gave me a Core 2 Duo, 1Gb DDR RAM and 6800GS. Over the next 12 months, I upgraded to 2GB DDR2 (when RAM was very cheap) and an 8800 GTS 320Mb (totally fine at any resolution, the early reviews where it slowed at higher resolutions were due to a now-fixed driver bug). Both are current technologies that will last significant time, spending minimum cash.

So now I've got a Core 2 Duo, 2GB DDR2 RAM, 8800 GTS. Still using my case and drives from the old PC, no problems. The next step is to rebuild it on a newer motherboard and overclock the Core 2 Duo to 3GHz (which it should do happily), then upgrade one of the hard drives to become the new C: - not that it feels like it even needs it yet.

I've only spent a few hundred bucks and can run everything well. I've not run into any bottlenecks at all.

Also, SLI is bullshit. You only need one graphics card, because it is now the central feature of a gaming PC and saving the money for a single video card upgrade when the next generation comes along in a few months will wipe the floor with the minimal boost you could have gotten from SLI.

Vista is also bullshit. It's Windows ME for a new generation. XP is the Windows 98.

[Riggswolfe]

Vista is also bullshit. It's Windows ME for a new generation. XP is the Windows 98.

I got Vista for several reasons:

1) The first Service Pack is out.
2) I use it at work and it seems stable for the most part.
3) DirectX 10
4) XP support is already starting to disappear in some respects.
5) There wasn't a significant savings getting XP over Vista.

[ajax34i]

I'll probably get Vista in another year when there's even more support for it.  The SLI motherboard and big power supply I got for when they change the standard from PCI-E to something else, so I can extend the life of my PC a little bit more.  But, like I said, I'm waiting to see what the switch to DTV will do to  HDTV prices, and once we get one of those, consoles will enter the list of options for me, and the PC might exit (in which case I expect my current computer to last 10+ years).