WoW speaks about gold farming/power leveling.

[Phred]

Of course it again begs the question, "why play at all if everything can be bought?"

Because it's fun?

Waiting for the shiney to drop isn't half as fun as having and using the shiney.

What would use the shiney on if you already have everything?

That only works if getting the shiny is the only reason to play. Typically when people buy things in MMOGs they are trying to skip one or more aspects of the game they don't enjoy/have no time for in order to play one aspect they do. Dropping money on a fully kitted WoW arena character skips the leveling process and the BG grind and you can get right to arena.

What are all the pvp'rs who, after they are fully geared out, reform new teams to sell points gonna do when everyone can buy their fully kitted out arena char direct from the company? Somehow I don't think continuing to play for the joy of playing is gonna work there. Also when they are going up against fully geared ppl and have to work a little harder to win I bet that joy of playing is in a bit short in supply.

[Merusk]

I keep forgetting how much you all hate PvE. 

See, if you buy everything from the company, there's no point in PvE at all.  Then you're left with only the arena game, or only the BG game.  How's that working for Fury?

Oh right.


In EvE I could see it working, but that's a World game with shitty pve. Some of us LIKE pve for the sake of pve.

[Ratman_tf]

In EvE I could see it working, but that's a World game with shitty pve. Some of us LIKE pve for the sake of pve.

I do too. It's true that with RMT you could buy a copy of the game, buy your level and gear, and then fucking quit without ever having logged on, because you're already done.

What's next? Buying out quests and keys? 

[Sky]

What are all the pvp'rs who, after they are fully geared out, reform new teams to sell points gonna do when everyone can buy their fully kitted out arena char direct from the company? Somehow I don't think continuing to play for the joy of playing is gonna work there. Also when they are going up against fully geared ppl and have to work a little harder to win I bet that joy of playing is in a bit short in supply.

So the joy of pvp is selling points or wtfpwning people in inferior gear?

[Jimbo]

I keep forgetting how much you all hate PvE. 

See, if you buy everything from the company, there's no point in PvE at all.  Then you're left with only the arena game, or only the BG game.  How's that working for Fury?

Oh right.


In EvE I could see it working, but that's a World game with shitty pve. Some of us LIKE pve for the sake of pve.

If they came up with a way to get gear, money, or whatever it takes, so you could do the PvE or PvP without having to grind time, then maybe people wouldn't feel the need to RMT.

Why is time and the amount of people you have with you allways the most important thing?  That seems to be what matters in PvE.

In PvP, I feel that most who play level up games don't want a fair fight.  They feel that if some newbie could kill them, then the game isn't worth playing.  Of course those that come from a FPS feel that the game is nuts to keep other out, and that unfair fights suck.

[Calantus]

I keep forgetting how much you all hate PvE. 

See, if you buy everything from the company, there's no point in PvE at all.  Then you're left with only the arena game, or only the BG game.  How's that working for Fury?

Oh right.


In EvE I could see it working, but that's a World game with shitty pve. Some of us LIKE pve for the sake of pve.

Fun PVE and grinding cash are very different things. I play singleplayer games all the time, no PVP at all! But there's also no grinding for hours and hours and hours to participate in other parts of the game either (JRPGs aside). Is it fun grinding 5000 gold for an epic flying mount? What about on your 2nd alt? Is it fun to plow ~200 hours into battlegrounds over a few weeks to be able to compete in arena? Is leveling your upteenth character to 70 to try out another class fun? PVE is fine and fun and blah blah blah I'm not stepping on your baby, but when you're asked to do it over and over again it gets old.

[Slyfeind]

That only works if getting the shiny is the only reason to play. Typically when people buy things in MMOGs they are trying to skip one or more aspects of the game they don't enjoy/have no time for in order to play one aspect they do. Dropping money on a fully kitted WoW arena character skips the leveling process and the BG grind and you can get right to arena. Someone buying ISK to replace their losses in a war is skipping the missioning/ratting/trading/mining/whatever process in order to get back into the war in a decent ship. In both cases the player is not destroying the game for themselves.

Okay yeah, that's understandable. I thought we were talking about buying EVERYTHING in the game.

[Merusk]

Fun PVE and grinding cash are very different things. I play singleplayer games all the time, no PVP at all! But there's also no grinding for hours and hours and hours to participate in other parts of the game either (JRPGs aside). Is it fun grinding 5000 gold for an epic flying mount? What about on your 2nd alt? Is it fun to plow ~200 hours into battlegrounds over a few weeks to be able to compete in arena? Is leveling your upteenth character to 70 to try out another class fun? PVE is fine and fun and blah blah blah I'm not stepping on your baby, but when you're asked to do it over and over again it gets old.

I don't disagree on any of the grinding shit.  Really, I don't.  I'm one of the first people to say that insisting groups kill the same  mobs over and over for months as a retention tactic (which is ALL it is.) is bullshit.   A loot scheme closer to D2/ HG where lots of stuff drops and 'bosses' have better, but still random, gear is preferable to me. If combined with a token/ dkp/ badge system of some sort so that just killing bosses for 'coin' can get a specific loot drop rather than relying on the RNG would be even better.

[Venkman]

Using the shiny is more fun than getting it?

I'd like to see a list of five items from any modern MMO that really made the game more fun unto itself. And I don't mean five different styles of speedy-feet like WoW horses or SoW boots. I mean stuff that actually made the day-to-day play of a game more fun by it's very use to you as a player.

Because all I see is an infinite series of gear that provides micro stat boosts that make your skills better. That's fine since it works. But getting some drop from some mob doesn't radically change the game to make it more fun. It just extends the fun you're already through positive feedback.

I say the reward is separate from fun because the "fun" you had getting that reward was based on your class/template. The reward just makes you better at it.

[UnSub]

Using the shiny is more fun than getting it?

It just extends the fun you're already through positive feedback.

The reward just makes you better at it.

You answered the question. Being 'better' at something / improving your abilities is generally the point behind trying to get certain drops. That in turn makes you more capable, which extends your ability to achieve certain goals. Hopefully going after / acheiving those goals is 'fun' for you. PvP is one area where such things matter. Alts are another area where you might want to try some things out, but don't want to have to grind through the low lvl areas yet again to get to the 'fun'.

I'm a big proponent of full internal RMT. As a casual player, I don't have the time to grind out missions on the chance I'll get the drop I want or to grind out 40 million in-game currency so I can afford to buy something off an auction house. I certainly think drops should still be in the game, but I'd like the option of being able to put some RL cash into getting past the grind and into actually playing the MMO, where I should be having fun.

I keep reading arguments from MMO players that I apparently need to 'earn' the right to get to the fun parts through lvling and passing huge time sinks. Why is that? If I want to be the equivalent of an 17 yo learner driver in a Ferrari within the MMO context, where's the problem? I may crash into a wall and kill myself, but that's not a problem within MMOs.

[Ratman_tf]

I keep reading arguments from MMO players that I apparently need to 'earn' the right to get to the fun parts through lvling and passing huge time sinks. Why is that? If I want to be the equivalent of an 17 yo learner driver in a Ferrari within the MMO context, where's the problem? I may crash into a wall and kill myself, but that's not a problem within MMOs.

Because then you turn the game from a time escalation to a money escalation. You've shifted the symptom over, but left the core problem intact. Now Richie Rich gets to see the end content along with Catass Man, but Joe Gamer is still stuck in the same rut.

[Slyfeind]

I Googled "Cat ass man" because I thought that would be an awesome superhero and Richie Rich should be his sidekick. I discovered "The Cat's Ass" used to be a term for really cool. Other than that, I got deja vu about halfway through Darniaq's last post.

It was probably deja vu about getting deja vu. Someone make more games because these ones are already old!

[Phred]

What are all the pvp'rs who, after they are fully geared out, reform new teams to sell points gonna do when everyone can buy their fully kitted out arena char direct from the company? Somehow I don't think continuing to play for the joy of playing is gonna work there. Also when they are going up against fully geared ppl and have to work a little harder to win I bet that joy of playing is in a bit short in supply.

So the joy of pvp is selling points or wtfpwning people in inferior gear?

If you go by pvpers in WoW, and by what they do rather than what they say, it would appear so.