PvP quote of the year (WoW)

[Faust]

Contrary to the bulk of the group think: I believe that a persistant role playing game can't exist without PvP.

Quite frankly, you cannot be a big bad ass if you cannot whup someone's ass.  If a game removes my ability to whup ass (or have my ass whupped) I'm not really interested in it.

I'm not a griefer, nor am I capable of catassery, but I prefer playing in full PvP environments.  One of the primary factors for that preference is the greatly reduced number of pussies whining about kill stealing, training, harrassing, and general griefing.  Frankly, the griefing on PvE only servers is higher IMHO.

That is not to say that living in a PvP environment isn't frustrating when you are on the recieving end of a constant ass whupping... but look at WoW for a minute.  What happens when you get whupped?  You have to run back from a cemetary and possibly go somewhere else to avoid repeated whuppings.  Horror of Horrors.

[Rasix]

What happens when you get whupped? You have to run back from a cemetary and possibly go somewhere else to avoid repeated whuppings. Horror of Horrors.

And yet, I can choose to play on the non PVP server and never have to do that at all! Plus, there's still the large portion of people that you're going to want to kill that you won't be able to: the training, kill stealing douche bags on your own team.

I think I'll wait and see what they have in store as far as the PVP instances and other routes go.  Hell, it'll take me probably half a year to get to 60 anyhow (if I don't quit before then); so I don't mind if it's not there at release.  

Quite frankly, you cannot be a big bad ass if you cannot whup someone's ass. If a game removes my ability to whup ass (or have my ass whupped) I'm not really interested in it.

I'm secure with my e-peen.

[Faust]

Help yourself.  Some folks don't like the additional stress of having to watch their backs when they play.  They get really uptight when someone stomps them flat and laughs at them.  I don't begrudge you your opinion, but don't begrudge mine.  for me it's not about "epeen", it's about AI and Roleplay.  

I find games more interesting when there is something other than AI to compete against.  I prefer playing roles that have to do with conflict between good and evil rather than foozles and zerg rushes.  That means I have to get my ass kicked by people I'd rather not be kicked by... but it makes my successes at the game all the more sweet.  Non-PvP games feel insipid to me.  

I actually prefer having to stay on my toes and... yes, I think even the wow should have FFA servers (no teams).  I agree, WoW's PvP servers will be lame when they force me to be on one team or another.   I strongly suspect the most annoying people in the game will probably be on my own team (alliance/horde).  In fact, I'm thinking of going alliance just because I suspect the "leet evil" types will lean towards horde (we'll see).

[Krakrok]

That’s like trying to make a great Civilization/Counterstrike hybrid.

Incidently that is some of what I am looking for in an MMO. Savage+Rome: TW.

as someone who's been jumped countless times fighting elementals in Shame with a sliver of health left can attest to.

For me though, I knew that would happen any time I went into a dungeon, no, I EXPECTED that to happen and I was prepared for it and even welcomed it.

[Morfiend]

In fact, I'm thinking of going alliance just because I suspect the "leet evil" types will lean towards horde (we'll see).

Actually, if release is any thing like beta, more of the mature players seem to go Horde, and the bnet kiddies to alliance. This is by no means a hard and fast, it just leans a bit more that way. The two biggest grief/zerg guilds are alliance.

Now my view point might be a bit skewed due to spending more time on Horde than Alliance, but that seems to be the general concesus.


Now if you said you wanted to go allaince because you want to fight the more skills guilds, that would be true.

[WonderBrick]

The more and more I think about it, and hear it discussed, leads me to believe that the only truly successful PVP systems will be those based on systems where time played is rewarded with increased flexibility, not exponential power growth over other players.

Amen.  Plus some status and cosmetic changes seen on the battlefield, such as Planetside and Savage.

But, this takes a bit more roleplaying out of the game.  Then again, it is a carefree foundation of successful PVP, that can be built upon.

[Mesozoic]

Quite frankly, you cannot be a big bad ass if you cannot whup someone's ass.  

Umm.  EverQuest?  At least 400,000 people seem to be perfectly able to brag about their ability to kill hostile stoplights.  And as (IMO) CoH has demonstrated, PvE does not need to be dull.

[plangent]

The more and more I think about it, and hear it discussed, leads me to believe that the only truly successful PVP systems will be those based on systems where time played is rewarded with increased flexibility, not exponential power growth over other players.

But, this takes a bit more roleplaying out of the game.  Then again, it is a carefree foundation of successful PVP, that can be built upon.

Enter Guildwars...

[HaemishM]

Contrary to the bulk of the group think: I believe that a persistant role playing game can't exist without PvP.

I agree. However, I believe that good persistent roleplaying cannot happen in a PVP environment where power is based almost solely on time spent in-game. There are way too many jackanapes who think that because they can play 50 hours a week, that gives them the right to lord it over everyone within reach. Additionally, there are too many types that want nothing to do with roleplaying; they just want to be able to beat the shit out of other players, and will put no thought into the world they are a part of.

I've come to the conclusion that the best PVP happens when I choose to be subjected to it, AND when I'm only marginally better or worse than my opponents. Things like DAoC's Battlegrounds are much more fun than their Frontiers; in the former, I have a chance no matter how much time I've spent on my character. In the latter, I have no chance unless I've spent an equal amount of time. I am the Iraqi militia facing off against the U.S. Marines, only I'm still tossing spears and the Marines have insta-kill laser death rays.

Is it "immersion-breaking?" Sure. But so is being pounded into paste in two-hits, with my killer screaming "WHO'S UR DADDY BIOTCH!"

[blindy]

I played Arctic for the PVE, if they'd removed PvP from the game I wouldn't have cared one bit.  

I guess that's just another example of how different players enjoy widely different things.  Clan wars and pvp was the absolute best part of that game for me, no exceptions.  I never would have played as much as I did (and it's honestly the online game I've spent the most cumulative time in) if I couldn't have killed rival clans for their gear.

Now can you imagine if your a semi-casual player on EQ or whatever (where remember your paying 13 bucks a month to play) zoning away happily and a group of high level clannies come past and kill you in two tics because they feel like it..and you lose all your eq and gold?

The fee never made any difference to me.  I might be more likely to check a game out if it's free, but if I start playing it regulary then I don't play it any differently than I do a subscription game.

Anyways, I've had that exact experience in MUDs; I've been pk'd in UO and dropped all my gear; I've been pk'd in AC and lost good items; I've been pk'd in EQ and lost exp.  It's never much bothered me.  Being griefed is a state of mind; if you don't get upset, then you weren't griefed.

I'll fully agree that unrestricted pvp with full item loss in EQ probably wouldn't work, but then, not all MMORPGS have to be EQ-clones, do they?  Hell, in my opinion, EQ doesn't work as is, but 400k people seem to disagree with me.

Well the obvious part of my statement that was missing was the 'and attract a huge number of players' I figured most ppl would assume thats what I meant.

Fair enough.  But from my perspective as a player, whether it can attract a huge number of players isn't a big deal for me.  It'd be nice, if it meant more resources devoted to PVP, or more games with it, but as long as I can go play on, say, the WoW PVP server, I'm content with that.  It's far from perfect, but I stopped expecting too much from MMORPGs a long time ago.

And thats the whole point. Arctic MUD is a horribly bad example to project onto your modern MMRPG, almost completely unfettered PVP with full item loot? Remember Arctic is free with about 80 players on at max...theres a difference.

Is there?  No one has made a MMORPG that has been even remotely like Arctic MUD, so I'm not sure how we'd know.  Maybe a MMORPG like it wouldn't work, maybe it would, I don't know.  I'd be interested in seeing it tried though.  Perhaps it would be a horrible failure, but then, what hasn't been MMORPG-wise?

The whole point of stating PvE and PvP can't co-exist WELL is that if your power in a PvP matchup is derived from your ability to PvE then only the hardcore catass is rewarded. Many in this thread have already pointed out why the lack of player skill in PvP = the suk.

I more or less agree with that.  I think the amount of skill in MMORPG PVP is downplayed, but it is only a factor between relative equals.  There's plenty of fights in these games where no amount of skill is going to get you a win, for instance your 20 warrior vs 50 warrior example.   If there's no increase in power from leveling though, I'm not sure why anyone would bother leveling.  Unless they actually like killing bunnies 2000 times to get the next "ding" sound.  

Personally, I think leveling should grant more power, but the leveling curve should be extremely short.  To the point where a regular but non-catass player (say, maybe 15-20 hours a week) could reach max level in less than a month from normal (non-exploitive) playing, if they knew what they were doing.  And then add on to that a very deep endgame of "raiding" and pvp.  Everyone always wants to reach the endgame anyways in games like this, so why not let people get there without having to drop out of school/quit work/divorce their loved ones?

I think SB tried something like that, without success, but I can't really comment on that game, since I never tried it.  I couldn't get over how buggy and unstable I knew it was.

[Faust]

However, I believe that good persistent roleplaying cannot happen in a PVP environment where power is based almost solely on time spent in-game.

Can't argue with that.  I suppose this is where Guild Wars comes in... err... again.

I'm hoping Guild Wars has some interesting content and some mild role play opportunities, however.  Thus far, I don't see it.

But back to WoW.  I'm going to give it a shot.  From the stress test I saw enough content and PvE fun that I think it will be fun.  I will, however, be on a PvP server to add that element.

As to current population dynamics, I think there are currently a lot of alliance because the alliance is/was more developed when this beta period started.  The jury is still out about what everyone will take upon release.