F13 Book Club Part 2: A Canticle for Leibowitz by Walter Miller

[lamaros]

His contributions as a scientist were significant and remembered, but not his belief system. Taddeo was not in a position of enough power to propagate that particular meme because Hannigan had his own warlike vision that he wanted to push. In a modern context, how much do we know about the belief systems of Maxwell or Newton? It's unlikely their contributions to science will be forgotten, but their vision of how science should be used is totally lost, or at least mostly ignored.

Maybe in popular knowledge. Newton as a person reformed the mint! Supposedly because his gay lover left him and he channeled his anger against those clipping coins! Anyway, Newton is not a comparable example, because Newton is just one of many many people. More well known perhaps, but the reality of his situation does not make him as isolated genius in the realm of Taddeo.

Also, I'm not saying that Taddeo should be know as a philosopher or anything, just that he should be more or less than 'science' if he is to be anything, and Miller makes him something.

Hitler == Hannigan. I think mainstream history frequently only reflects on those at the top of a society. It's one of the reasons we though everyone in 14th century England got married at 14; we only ever looked at the nobles and assumed the rest must have followed suit. How many mainstream history books cover Caesar's advisors? They probably had a huge influence on how the Roman empire developed, but they weren't the top of the pyramid.

Exactly. The fact is if we just looked at Ceaser and tried to work out how the Roman empire worked it wouldn't make sense, and if we just looked at Ceaser and tried to project a future off his back we'd get something very different to what we have. Yet Miller seems to take Hannigan as the one significant influence to the exclusion of everyone else. We don't live today in Ceaser or Hilter's image (not so clearly or directly, anyway), so why does it make sense to assume that their future follows in Hannigan's and only Hannigan's?

[Prospero]

warning: I don't have my book here, and I have baby on the brain, so I may be making stuff up. Please call me on it.

Also, I'm not saying that Taddeo should be know as a philosopher or anything, just that he should be more or less than 'science' if he is to be anything, and Miller makes him something.

Or at least you keep thinking Miller makes him something. Clearly the third book shows that he was in fact nothing. He did not get the ear of history, he did not dramatically change the course of human history, and thus however badass he seemed in his own time, his visible influence on history was minimal. History's a bitch.

Exactly. The fact is if we just looked at Ceaser and tried to work out how the Roman empire worked it wouldn't make sense, and if we just looked at Ceaser and tried to project a future off his back we'd get something very different to what we have. Yet Miller seems to take Hannigan as the one significant influence to the exclusion of everyone else. We don't live today in Ceaser or Hilter's image (not so clearly or directly, anyway), so why does it make sense to assume that their future follows in Hannigan's and only Hannigan's?

I wouldn't say that history was following in Hannigan's footsteps. His goal was to bring together the region under his control, not wipe everyone out in a dick waving contest. To follow that pattern, book three should be about the America-like nation trying to take over some other nation, at least if Miller was that heavy handed in his story telling.

But he's not. I think you are trying to link the books together too much. I see them as three completely separate stories that just happen to occur on the same planet. I think the third book tries to show how time changes history. It seems pretty obvious that this one Hannigan dude didn't send humans irrecoverably down the path of nuclear war, we just happened to get there again because we're too dumb to realize those weapons should never be used.

I think the second book is a discussion of how Miller thinks that scientists should be wary of sacrificing their morals for the pursuit of knowledge. I see it as Cat's Cradle all over again. Taddeo was so single minded in his pursuit of knowledge that he was willing to work for Hannigan even though he knew that his advances would come at the expense of human life. He resolved his cognitive dissonance by believing the pursuit of knowledge was for the greater good, even though clearly he didn't agree with Hannigans's actions. If he had run off and joined the monks at the end of book 2, book 3 could have been totally the same.

Also I keep wanting to call Hannigan:

It hurts my head to imagine him as an evil warlord.

[lamaros]

Eh, I can't really see one of the/the major character of part two isn't 'something' or how the three parts are not closely related in that they are parts of the same book, but I don't think we're going to get any further here without repeating ourselves so I'll 

[Samwise]

Now for a sharp left turn: what was the point of Benjamin?  I'm pretty sure that he's the Wandering Jew of medieval folklore, but how does he fit into this story? 

My thinking is that his main role is to lend some sort of temporal perspective, much like I see the vultures, in that he was there before the latest world-changing scientific discovery, he'll still be there after, and he doesn't care much about any of it.

I also remember thinking that his dialogue with Dom Paulo was significant, but I've already forgotten why -- will have to reread that bit.

[lamaros]

I don't think anyone else cares to actualy discuss things Samwise. Maybe I should say something provocative so they get involved with this thread again and start abusing me.

Looks like book club is closed.

[Samwise]

Are you saying that we can't have nice things?

[Prospero]

Ugh, replying means I have to engage the brain... thing.

I think the wandering jew is there to prevent the reader from letting any anti-religion sentiment from coloring their view of the book. While a person may think God is just a figment of peoples imagination in the real world, in the book there is clearly some sort of divine force. I'm not anti-religious, but I still think it changed the way I saw the church in the book.

I also thought there was something to his interest in Taddeo, but now I can't remember, and I lent the book out. Alackaday.

[cmlancas]

It's exam week for me at my university. I still have Canticle in my bathroom (aka place of reading) and am still plodding through. I think I'm at page 100 or so.

Sorry ><

[Miasma]

I don't know what Ben was all about either.  I guess we have to assume he is the same Ben from the very beginning which adds an odd bit of magic/fantasy into the book.  Was he looking for the Jewish Messiah or for the second coming of Christ?  And was the second coming the mutant head because it could be considered an immaculate conception?

And what was the last paragraph alluding to?  Best I can come up with was some allegory about how the worst, most desperate parts of us will always survive, even if everything else is destroyed it will just go and rest in some dark place and hunger.  Maybe the shark was original sin.

I mean you can normally come up with some pretty wild ideas on what an author meant in regular books but since this one had so much deep religion running through it the possibilities are infinite.  You would basically need to sit down with Miller and ask "so, what the fuck was that all about?" to get anywhere near the truth.

Edit: And what was written on the back of Ben's sign at his home that was so damn clever?

[Samwise]

Was he looking for the Jewish Messiah or for the second coming of Christ?

Could be both.  In folklore, the Wandering Jew is a man who taunted Jesus on Golgotha and is cursed by God to have eternal life on Earth until he witnesses the Second Coming.  If you try to fit Ben and his apparent religious beliefs into that, then he knows he can't pass on until he sees the Messiah, but he's not necessarily convinced that Jesus was the true Messiah in the first place; what he's waiting for is what Christians would call the "Second Coming", but he might see it as more of a "First Coming".

I think his reaction to Taddeo was genuine -- maybe he'd been hearing about this legendary figure performing "miracles" (of science) and thought there was a chance that he was one he was waiting for.

I'm still puzzling over what exactly Rachel is supposed to be.  My initial reading was that she was the Second Coming (immaculate conception, end of the world, et cetera), but I'm inclined more now to think that she's more of an Eve -- not the end of life on Earth, but a new beginning.  I guess those two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, though...?

[Morat20]

Now for a sharp left turn: what was the point of Benjamin?  I'm pretty sure that he's the Wandering Jew of medieval folklore, but how does he fit into this story? 

He's there for the same point Bombadil was in LoTR -- he represents the unknown. Not necessarily "something outside of science", but a reminder that even with all the knowledge stored by the Church or acquired by man, there will always be mysteries and enigmas.