InfamousBrad on CoH/V's innovations

[Rendakor]

Depends on what game you're talking about. In CoH, sure, you're right. In WoW the progression 1-69 is static, you grow your character primarily by leveling; any other choice you make is rendered meaningless by levels. Then at 70 it opens up, leaving you multiple paths to power: raiding, PVP, heroics, rep grinds, etc. The power curve slows down, yes, but not the amount of options available.

Completely different game, I'll give you that.

[Glazius]

Depends on what game you're talking about. In CoH, sure, you're right. In WoW the progression 1-69 is static, you grow your character primarily by leveling; any other choice you make is rendered meaningless by levels. Then at 70 it opens up, leaving you multiple paths to power: raiding, PVP, heroics, rep grinds, etc. The power curve slows down, yes, but not the amount of options available.

Completely different game, I'll give you that.

Oh, have they changed things so you can't raid, PVP, or gain reputation before 70 in WoW? I haven't been keeping up.

[Moosehands]

No Attribute Points

So instead of choosing attribs and and being spoonfed skills you get spoonfed powers and choose enhancements?  I'm not seeing how one form of customization is better than another (especially when both of them still fall prey to the "one true build" syndrome).

Ubiquitous Instanced Missions

Already touched upon but mother of christ were those missions cookie cutter.  After a year and a half of play I just stopped running missions in favor of wandering around zones watching the NPCs riff off each other.  Also, the level-adjustment thing assured that you'd never be outclassed but also ensured that you'd never feel the need to change tactics and provided no drive (for me) for advancement.

Flight

Travel powers are cool, agreed.

Sidekicking and Exemplaring

Has it changed significantly since I quit (around I8) or does a pickup group still involve 20 minutes of trying to figure out which people of which level spreads should sk each other, only to have one of the group quit 5 minutes into the mission forcing either another LFM spam or a "sorry guy we don't have a mentor for you any more" moment?  Good idea in theory, but very rough around the edges.

Cellphones

I only beta'd CoV but cellphones seemed okay.

Extraordinary Forum

I don't read official MMO forums.  They make me stabby.


What eventually killed CoX for me wasn't an innovation, but something they ran with like it was a marathon baton.  Namely, the idea that Players Were Playing The Wrong Way.  I played from launch through I8 and CoV beta and it seemed like every other month I was subjected to some dev screed about how they never intended for players to X, Y, Z followed by soul crushing nerfs and "hey, free respec!"  Not that I'm bitter or anything.   

[Rendakor]

Depends on what game you're talking about. In CoH, sure, you're right. In WoW the progression 1-69 is static, you grow your character primarily by leveling; any other choice you make is rendered meaningless by levels. Then at 70 it opens up, leaving you multiple paths to power: raiding, PVP, heroics, rep grinds, etc. The power curve slows down, yes, but not the amount of options available.

Completely different game, I'll give you that.

Oh, have they changed things so you can't raid, PVP, or gain reputation before 70 in WoW? I haven't been keeping up.

Since you missed it the first time...

Yes, the old 60 content exists. Does anyone do it? Nope.

[Phred]

Depends on what game you're talking about. In CoH, sure, you're right. In WoW the progression 1-69 is static, you grow your character primarily by leveling; any other choice you make is rendered meaningless by levels. Then at 70 it opens up, leaving you multiple paths to power: raiding, PVP, heroics, rep grinds, etc. The power curve slows down, yes, but not the amount of options available.

Completely different game, I'll give you that.

Oh, have they changed things so you can't raid, PVP, or gain reputation before 70 in WoW? I haven't been keeping up.

Since you missed it the first time...

Yes, the old 60 content exists. Does anyone do it? Nope.

I just did cenarion circle for the 24 slot herb pattern which is unobtainable anywhere else. Since BC release cc rep is trivial to get though. So is AD with the former 25 rep tokens generating 100 rep now.
I believe you can start working on aldor and scyer factions at L60 in BC actually. Can't get the quest to go past honored until 68 though.
I can't think of one rep in  BC that can't be started work on as soon as you can enter the zones where it is farmed. Every alt I've run through since my main has had honored cenarion expedition from plant part turn ins before even doing a quest with ce rep.
I believe grinding Naga can get you to honored as well, or maybe just friendly.

[eldaec]

I just did cenarion circle for the 24 slot herb pattern which is unobtainable anywhere else. Since BC release cc rep is trivial to get though. So is AD with the former 25 rep tokens generating 100 rep now.
I believe you can start working on aldor and scyer factions at L60 in BC actually. Can't get the quest to go past honored until 68 though.
I can't think of one rep in  BC that can't be started work on as soon as you can enter the zones where it is farmed. Every alt I've run through since my main has had honored cenarion expedition from plant part turn ins before even doing a quest with ce rep.
I believe grinding Naga can get you to honored as well, or maybe just friendly.

English pls.

[Rendakor]

I just did cenarion circle for the 24 slot herb pattern which is unobtainable anywhere else. Since BC release cc rep is trivial to get though. So is AD with the former 25 rep tokens generating 100 rep now.
I believe you can start working on aldor and scyer factions at L60 in BC actually. Can't get the quest to go past honored until 68 though.
I can't think of one rep in  BC that can't be started work on as soon as you can enter the zones where it is farmed. Every alt I've run through since my main has had honored cenarion expedition from plant part turn ins before even doing a quest with ce rep.
I believe grinding Naga can get you to honored as well, or maybe just friendly.

So the BC rep can be grinded partially before 70, right? Which means that hitting 70 EXPANDS your ability to progress.

You also can't advance in the Arena pre-70 (that is, you can play but not form a team or earn points).

[Phred]

So the BC rep can be grinded partially before 70, right? Which means that hitting 70 EXPANDS your ability to progress.

You also can't advance in the Arena pre-70 (that is, you can play but not form a team or earn points).
[/quote]

I can only think of a few reputations that dont let you max out after passing 68, though you'd have to be quite good to be able to do the instances where the rep is. Aldor and scryer is actually pretty easy to raise pre-70 as the mobs you kill are usually in the 67-68 range. But yes, your statements are both essentially true.

[rk47]

I think the problem this game has is the lack of switchable primary and secondary power sets. Heck, I'd play more if it allows me to switch my Dark / Dark to something else like Dark / Regen to spice things up a bit. There's just no inclination to re-grind from lvl 1 again since you've seen the same tileset, the same mobs and almost the same missions. If you have no end-game at least give the players something 'fun' to do like testing new builds without having to play again from beginning. This is why I unsubbed after finishing off my Dark/Dark Scrapper and Robo Mastermind, no motivation to return.

[MaceVanHoffen]

I think the problem this game has is the lack of switchable primary and secondary power sets.

That's a legitimate beef.  Even though I'm an altoholic in this game, I'd still love to be able to swap around powersets instead of rerolling and relevelling.

I think I grok why the design team made this decision, I'm just not sure I agree with it.  I don't see the harm in letting you change out your power sets during a respec.

[Lantyssa]

At the time they implemented the system, it was a "how things are done" thing.  Even now, they hand out respecs more generously than most places.

[Trippy]

But not generously enough. If I was King for a Day you would get at least 2 Vet reward respecs for each month subscribed.

[Glazius]

Yes, the old 60 content exists. Does anyone do it? Nope.

So for all practical purposes, it doesn't exist. Now, I realize that in a completely fair environment this wouldn't necessarily be an argument against the design - after all, if it exists but people aren't using it then people don't _want_ to use it. But didn't Blizzard introduce gear with the expansion that basically made all the old "60 cap" content obsolete, from a power-curve perspective?

I see where you're going, though, and it's a valid point. But if you can't do what you want from 1-69, why do 1-69 even exist?

[Valmorian]

But if you can't do what you want from 1-69, why do 1-69 even exist?

Possibly because a lot of people DO enjoy the 1-69 content.  It's not as if nobody creates alts on WoW.

[Rendakor]

Not getting into an arguement for why there is a level grind...

I never said people don't enjoy 1-69, I just said that any non-level advancement you earn is invalidated by level. There are a few exceptions, but 99% of it is meaningless.

Take EQ2's AA system as a counter example; advancing AAs as a low level character with combat xp off is a perfectly viable path, which actually impacts your character at max level. WoWs old BG system was like this too, where grinding the faction up at low level made gear available all the way up to 60.

[Valmorian]

WoWs old BG system was like this too, where grinding the faction up at low level made gear available all the way up to 60.

As far as I know, you can use the Honor Points and tokens you get doing lower level BGs on higher level BG equipment if you don't spend them.

[Llava]

Which is like saying you can use the copper you get from mobs at level 5 to buy stuff at level 70 if you don't spend it.

The amount you get is so little as to be inconsequential.

[Rendakor]

The tokens are useful, I suppose. Llava's spot on about the honor points though.

[spiralyguy]

Here's why though. I hate seeing words like "gimp" or "twink", I don't think I've even used those words in years. But for arguments sake, I quite enjoy purposely "gimping" my character through randomization and I like to see if the game can provide me with alternative methods to accomplish my goals through interesting, entertaining, uncommon or strategic methods.

And I personally think that is a much more important example of game design, as opposed to locking ones character down a pre-determined set path.

Because when I get to pick and choose how I want to determine my character, I feel like I'm designing part of the game/experience. I can encounter my own challenges and epic stories by doing what I wasn't supposed to be able to do.

The "gimp" provides a far more entertaining play through if said game is designed well enough, as opposed to playing the pre-determined "hero".

From a game designers point of view, allowing players to "gimp" their characters makes balancing the PvE aspect nearly impossible.  You're left with 1 of 2 very bad choices:

1)  Allow "gimped" chars to be powerful enough to defeat the most difficult encounters in the game.  Result:  Non-gimped chars have no challenge at all
2)  Balance the most difficult encounters so that you need nearly an ideal build to defeat the encounter.  Result:  Tons of people are pissed cause they had to re-roll their "gimped" char in order to experience the game.

These need to be avoided.

I'm certainly not saying customization isn't important and should be removed.  I love customization as much as the next guy.  The secret is, your customization needs to have no effect on your strength/power whatever you want to call it.  All variations of customization should comply with 2 maxims:  1) Can complete the most difficult encounters in the game 2) The most difficult challenges in the game remain challenging.  Once your customization breaks one of those 2 rules you have a serious problem.  Of course the easy way (easy way, not best way) out is to allow customization with respecs.

[MaceVanHoffen]

I hate "gimp" and "twink" too, but ...

Some ability to gimp your character is inevitable in any game that I'd find fun.  Otherwise, you'd just be on rails.

Example:  In CoX, I can create a character with 4 travel powers.  Why?  Because it might be fun for me.  Now, 4 travel powers is 8 power choices gone, so .... you're probably gimped.  Now, I personally wouldn't do that, but there are some who might.  The fact that there's a choice makes the game more fun, and removes me from the cookie cutter systems of other games.

Another example:  In UO, I could create a tradeskill only character.  Why?  I dunno, sounds cool.  It's my $X/month, so screw it.  The point is, I'm probably gimped from the standpoint of combat.  But because I have the choice, the game is more fun.

That's why I prefer games that allow you to respec some or all of your character.  I'd like the freedom to play around with power and skill combination that the accountants may not have optimized for coupled with the ability to move to something more mainstream if I wanted to, without having to start over again.

Min/maxing on the part of the players is bad enough.  But it's worse when the devs do it, because then I can't safely ignore the idiocy.

[Trippy]

My main in CoH has 4 travel powers (not counting temps): Super Speed, Fly, Inertial Reduction, and Siphon Speed. I'm just missing Teleport. I'm a travel power junkie

[stray]

I went with Kinetics too, and added flight on top of that. Not the most "optimal" build, but what the hell.

[eldaec]

My main in CoH has 4 travel powers (not counting temps): Super Speed, Fly, Inertial Reduction, and Siphon Speed. I'm just missing Teleport. I'm a travel power junkie

At 42 months you get group teleport as a vet reward - if that counts.

[Nevermore]

It's not a travel power, though.  It teleports the group to your location and has a half hour cooldown.

[Trippy]

I went with Kinetics too, and added flight on top of that. Not the most "optimal" build, but what the hell.

IR is really the only one not needed in my build, but Super Jump is the most fun travel power IMO. Super Speed is necessary to follow SB'd teammates around (Siphon Speed isn't always convenient) and Hasten is mandatory for Illusion (for Phantom Army). Fly is necessary post 40+ in my opinion (Shadow Shard, Hami raids, etc.). Plus it's a big benefit to be looking down on battles as a controller for placing AE effects. Siphon Speed is required cause you can never have too much recharge as an Illusionist (again Phantom Army).

[stray]

Yeah, controller here too (Grav). As for Siphon Speed, it can be a gamble.. But I actually got more use out of it IN battle. Not only did it have the secondary effect of slowing mobs down, but it was pretty cool for surveying and controlling things quickly, running around the battle area like that. Probably looked funny though.

[Venkman]

Parts of this thread are like the EQ2 vs WoW debate from a few months ago. Shades of the same thing (to an outsider of both)

You XP to gain levels in both games
Levels unlock abilities which you can use to customize your characters
Travel powers exist in both games
Both games are zoned. WoW just compartmentalizes outdoor content without loading screens
Ubiquitous instancing exists in both games
... as does public content
... as does instanced battlegrounds
... as does public PvP

The only differences are (to an outsider of both):

CoX has way the heck more many ways to customize your appearance
Sidekicks/exemplaring, which all DIKUs should integrate by their second year at least.
Theme/setting
Art style

The reason is nuance.

[Lantyssa]

I don't think it is fair to compare CoX's travel powers to any other games' travel abilities.

[Phred]

I don't think it is fair to compare CoX's travel powers to any other games' travel abilities.

The only thing that is close to a super jump equipped hero in CoX imo, is an epic flying mount in WoW.

[Llava]

Even then, the limits on where and when you can mount up in WoW make a huge difference compared to the freedom you have in CoH.

[Lantyssa]

I always make a game out of using Super Jump by trying to bounce off the smallest landing points I can.  I also remember being so pleased once I learned how to use Combat Jumping to scale apartment buildings quickly in King's Row.

No other game makes it fun to use travel powers.  That's all they are elsewhere.  A power to get you from A to B more quickly.

[Phred]

I always make a game out of using Super Jump by trying to bounce off the smallest landing points I can.  I also remember being so pleased once I learned how to use Combat Jumping to scale apartment buildings quickly in King's Row.

No other game makes it fun to use travel powers.  That's all they are elsewhere.  A power to get you from A to B more quickly.

Bouncing along overhead power lines was fun too.

[tazelbain]

Turning off flying from great heights and turning it back on at the last possible second.

[Llava]

Teleporting into a group of enemies, using a point blank power, and teleporting away to follow up with a ranged attack.

[eldaec]

Turning off flying from great heights and turning it back on at the last possible second.

Just the picking your moment to turn off fly for most stylish possible landing is enough to keep me amused.