Tell me why RMT is any different from...

[Venkman]

• Powerleveling
• Twinking
• Dual-boxing
• Logging in at server-up
• Bots of any type
• Joining a fresh server before others
• Getting into a game before launch

This week's barking-at-the-world theme seems to be about the "problem" of RMTs and ways to "solve" it. Plenty of links, but I'll just go with Raph's.

I've personally never had the hate for RMTing, or, I don't recall every having it? I should look that up.

In any case, I don't really see that it's any different from the other methods gamers use to get around punitive or boring game mechanics. I think I get why people have a problem with it, and I have yet to see anything that deviates from the emotional. "It's not fair." "They didn't blow their time the way others did". "They trivialize the game". Nothing really substantial that proves there's a dark underside to RMT that a) holds the genre back from the nothing-but-growth it's enjoyed; and, b) disproves the other business model that accounts for so much of the world's MMO activity (microtrans in the East).

• RMT does not create bad behavior. Without it people would find a different way to cheat, in that or another game.
• RMT does not cause advertising. The ability to spam does. Anyone who thinks RMT spam is the biggest part of any MMO needs only to visit the major player commerce centers to see what real spam is like (Bree, Ironforge, any Qeynos)
  
• Only stupid companies cheat at the game and piss off players while conducting RMT. Nails to be hammered by Blizzard.
• Anyone who thinks RMTing gets players to l33tdom hasn't played a post EQ2 MMO at the endgame, when the real separation betwee have and have-nots begins.
  
• There is no actual Magic Circle of immersion. It's all in the mind. If your immersion absolutely requires everyone else feel that same level of immersion, you're in the wrong genre, and as pissed by RMTs as you are by g1ml1 and dirkv4der.

And don't get me started on the number of proposed methods to "solve" RMT.

So, am I wrong? Is RMTing just another method of gaming the game like the others listed, all to get around problems and keep up with friends or get ahead at all? Or is there some fundamental measurable objective impact it has on the game world?

[DarkSign]

Speaking of RMT,

SOE sold to Zapak Digital of India an RMT company.

Zapak Digital entertainment, the online gaming company promoted by Anil Ambani-led ADAG group, is all set to buy out Sony Online Entertainment (SOE) for around $300 million (Rs 1,200 crore). Source: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...ow/2643807.cms

Bye bye SOE? Yet another company outsourced to India? Bye bye SOE Fan Faires?

But Smedley denies it: here and here

The plot thickens

[Hutch]

1) Botting sucks. If I want to go kill a particular group of mobs, for whatever reason, and there's a bot there, for whatever reason, that bot is cutting into my fun. "Go hunt somewhere else" is not a valid rejoinder in this case. Fuck you, I'm the one who's actually logged in and playing the game. The fucking bot should be banned instead.

2) Spamming sucks. I don't care how boring and troublesome it is for some people to actually be bothered to play the game. If you're bored, fucking log out and/or quit. If you respond to any form of advertisements, whether in the game or outside of it, you're partially responsible for spam. Stop it.

3) Raph is a big fucking crybaby for making that post. Oh boo hoo hoo, look at all of these mechanisms we put into the game to make it easier for players to get together and socialize and help each other out. Well boo hoo to you too, Beardy McBeardison. How about the mechanisms you put into the game to make sure that players stick around and subscribe for months or years? If reaching the level cap takes someone X months of pointless grinding against the same four quest patterns and the same two dozen art assets, of course they're going to get bored and, at some point, try to circumvent the system. Especially if they're trying to catch up to their friends, with whom they can't meaningfully adventure (without twinking or powerlevelling) because they've been at the level cap for Y months already. Make a game without a hamster wheel for once.

3 continued) Your business model encourages RMT through the deliberately designed pervasive time sinks. And now you're all like, "hey the developers and publishers should be getting in on that sweet sweet RMT candy. It's only fair." Shenanigans. Make a game that doesn't have time sinks, and you'll have a game where people have nothing to trade their RM for.

Of course, to make such a game, you'd need to come up with something for players to do that will keep them engaged for longer than a few weeks. I hear that coming up with content is one of the more time consuming aspects of game development. No wonder you're taking the easy way out.


(edit: grammatical fix)

[Arrrgh]

It causes inflation. Prices on newbie/mid level items go up faster than a real newbie/mid leveler can afford if they don't buy gold.

[SnakeCharmer]

Speaking of RMT,

SOE sold to Zapak Digital of India an RMT company.

Zapak Digital entertainment, the online gaming company promoted by Anil Ambani-led ADAG group, is all set to buy out Sony Online Entertainment (SOE) for around $300 million (Rs 1,200 crore). Source: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...ow/2643807.cms

Bye bye SOE? Yet another company outsourced to India? Bye bye SOE Fan Faires?

But Smedley denies it: here and here

The plot thickens

Ain't happening - this isn't one of those 'The CU is here to stay!' roflcopters declarations.

If there was something to it, he would have said, well, nothing.

The plot has about as much consistency as nothing.  Nothing to thicken up.

1) Botting sucks. If I want to go kill a particular group of mobs, for whatever reason, and there's a bot there, for whatever reason, that bot is cutting into my fun. "Go hunt somewhere else" is not a valid rejoinder in this case. Fuck you, I'm the one who's actually logged in and playing the game. The fucking bot should be banned instead.

2) Spamming sucks. I don't care how boring and troublesome it is for some people to actually be bothered to play the game. If you're bored, fucking log out and/or quit. If you respond to any form of advertisements, whether in the game or outside of it, you're partially responsible for spam. Stop it.

3) Raph is a big fucking crybaby for making that post. Oh boo hoo hoo, look at all of these mechanisms we put into the game to make it easier for players to get together and socialize and help each other out. Well boo hoo to you too, Beardy McBeardison. How about the mechanisms you put into the game to make sure that players stick around and subscribe for months or years? If reaching the level cap takes someone X months of pointless grinding against the same four quest patterns and the same two dozen art assets, of course they're going to get bored and, at some point, try to circumvent the system. Especially if they're trying to catch up to their friends, with whom they can't meaningfully adventure (without twinking or powerlevelling) because they've been at the level cap for Y months already. Make a game without a hamster wheel for once.

3 continued) Your business model encourages RMT through the deliberately designed pervasive time sinks. And now you're all like, "hey the developers and publishers should be getting in on that sweet sweet RMT candy. It's only fair." Shenanigans. Make a game that doesn't have time sinks, and you'll have a game where people have nothing to trade their RM for.

Of course, to make such a game, you'd need to come up with something for players to do that will keep them engaged for longer than a few weeks. I hear that coming up with content is one of the more time consuming aspects of game development. No wonder you're taking the easy way out.


(edit: grammatical fix)

1)  How is the bot cutting into your fun?  There is no difference in a bot killing 'your' mobs (that you don't own) than a player that just wants to be a dick about things.  You can report the bot for being a bot, but you can't report the player for just being a dick and taking over your kill zone.

3)  Heh.  The biggest reason WHY as to RMT is as you have written.

3 continued)  No time sinks, no reason for people to stay subbed up.  You don't get endgame on purchase date.

Content is expensive.  Having original ideas for content is hard.  Paying people for new ideas cost alot of money.

It causes inflation. Prices on newbie/mid level items go up faster than a real newbie/mid leveler can afford if they don't buy gold.

Players drive the market prices.  People that buy RMT'd gold are probably the lowest percentage of players in an MMO - and they don't drive auction houses.

[Hutch]

1)  How is the bot cutting into your fun?  There is no difference in a bot killing 'your' mobs (that you don't own) than a player that just wants to be a dick about things.  You can report the bot for being a bot, but you can't report the player for just being a dick and taking over your kill zone.

Try not putting words in my mouth. I didn't say they were "my" mobs.

The bot cuts into my fun by competing for mob spawns. Just like a player would. The difference is that the player is playing the game. The bot shouldn't be there, and if he's not there, there's more room not only for me, but for the other live player(s) as well. The live meat person pressing keys might be a dick, but the person who buys a bot program and has it play the game for him is automatically a dick.

[CharlieMopps]

That's great... you like to cheat. There are lots of games that allow that sort of thing. Please get out of mine.

[Trippy]

Speaking of RMT,

SOE sold to Zapak Digital of India an RMT company.

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=11740.0

[DarkSign]

Didnt see it. Sorry.

[Slayerik]

Never had a problem with it, never will.

In fact, when I buy ISK/gold/plat whatever I'm feeding a poor asian kid somewhere. In Eve, I actually defend Asian farmers I like, and kill the others. Ni hao bitches.

Don't like RMT? Play a game where you can hunt down the farmers if you hate it so much. Make a difference! Starve a family today!

[Trippy]

In fact, when I buy ISK/gold/plat whatever I'm feeding a poor asian kid somewhere. In Eve, I actually defend Asian farmers I like, and kill the others. Ni hao bitches.

[Xanthippe]

It causes inflation. Prices on newbie/mid level items go up faster than a real newbie/mid leveler can afford if they don't buy gold.

I don't know about that.

Looking at my experience with WoW:  at launch, you couldn't sell a stack of copper ore or bars for much more than 25s because every other newbie was selling stacks of ore or bars.  Now, though, on an established server, that stack will sell for 1g or 2g.  Is it because of RMT? I don't think so.   Supply and demand drive the market much more than RMT.

So newbies can sell a stack of copper for 5-10x what it used to sell for.  The price of green armor also has risen.  It's not any harder to get stuff than it used to be.  In fact, I think it's easier because everyone is not competing against each other at the same level anymore.

Now, I've never bought or sold gold, and the economic side of mmos is the most interesting part of them, for me.  Why would I pay someone else to play the game for me?  For me, the journey is the fun - figuring out how to get rich in a game is fun, or where all the neat items are (like pets), exploring new areas, finding new quests. 

I have never understood people racing up to MAX_LEVEL just to be there for some end game that might not even be fun.  If the end game is fun but getting there is not, then why even put in the "getting there" part of it?  Why not create a game that starts at MAX_LEVEL, why not just play a game that skips all that other crap?

I liked Darniaq's post, and I also like Raph's post.  I think people are missing the points in both.

[Resetgun]

1. Have you ever played monopoly with real life cash, punk?

2. It cost money for game company:

Many of them use stolen credit cards, obtained by unsuspecting users who give them credit card #'s to purchase in-game gold. I'm not saying all of the RMT shops out there use stolen credit cards, but a LOT of them do. Your credit card is absolutely not safe in their hands.

In addition we recieve large scale (over $500k so far) fines for chargebacks that these scumbag farmers routinely do. They purchase a new account.. use it for a month and then call the credit card company to say "I never paid for this". Over time, as the # of these incidents rise we get fined by the credit card companies. And it's not just us, other large MMO companies are seeing exactly the same problem.

3. Those fuckers are using keyloggers, trojans and other nasty things that normal computer users are not aware.

According to Craig Schmugar, a researcher with the McAfee research labs, McAfee now sees more password-stealing malware designed to nab accounts of games like Lineage and World of Warcraft than Trojans that go after financial accounts.

Your bank account is still a juicy target, of course, and the single most common variety of password-stealer is still the ‘Banker’ variety. But for total numbers the game-breakers are more numerous. Aside from WoW and Lineage, Legend of Mir accounts are a big target.

Schmugar has a couple of ideas about why virtual gold might have such a strong lure. Most importantly, there’s less risk of serious consequences for someone who steals World of Warcraft accounts than for someone caught stealing bank logins, for instance.

But it can be just as easy to convert that game gold into real money by way of the thriving game-currency selling sites online. Many sought-after game items, just bits of code and pixels, can fetch a good price as well.

4. Real life value, might mean taxes.

Of course, no one has ever questioned whether real capital gains from economic activity in virtual worlds is taxable. Thus, if a player makes a real profit by buying and selling digital goods such as weapons, buildings, vehicles and the like, they must, under the law, declare the income.

The bigger and so far, unanswered question, has been whether economic gain that is stored in virtual currencies and property is taxable. And that appears to be what Congress may be looking at.

/lurker mode on 

[qedetc]

Hutchypoo.

1)

The bot cuts into my fun by competing for mob spawns. Just like a player would. The difference is that the player is playing the game. The bot shouldn't be there, and if he's not there, there's more room not only for me, but for the other live player(s) as well. The live meat person pressing keys might be a dick, but the person who buys a bot program and has it play the game for him is automatically a dick.

Your argument sucks.

This is a short summary of what you've said:
Bots suck.
They suck because they cut into my fun.
They shouldn't be there.
They cut into my fun because they compete with me, and are not actively being played by a person (essentially the defining feature of bots).
They shouldn't be there.
People who use bots are dicks.

So, are you saying bots should be removed from the game because:
a) they suck
b) they're bots
or
c) people who use them are dicks?

If you want to convince anyone, then you'll need to explain why bots suck without saying 'because theyre bots and bots suck' to get anywhere, unless you want to base your argument on the assumption that you're already right about bots sucking, I mean.  See, like how I just said your argument sucks, then I showed you why it sucked.  Try that.


2)
I guess when you say "spamming" you intend for us to mean "spamming about RMT services", otherwise what you said doesn't make any sense.  So, I'll assume that's what I'm supposed to read it as.

If you're bored, fucking log out and/or quit. If you respond to any form of advertisements, whether in the game or outside of it, you're partially responsible for spam. Stop it.

counter-point!: If you're upset with how the game works, fucking log out and/or quit.
If you're paying a subscription at all, then you're partially responsible for the upkeep and profitability of a game you dislike aspects of.  Stop it.

So anyway, why is spamming bad, again?  I guess because spamming sucks?

3)

Oh boo hoo hoo, look at all of these mechanisms we put into the game to make it easier for players to get together and socialize and help each other out. Well boo hoo to you too, Beardy McBeardison.

While raph does remind me of a some kind of ewok, I read that article as "these are the defining features of an mmo, they are also the things that permit RMT, and if you try to prevent RMT by getting rid of them, then you don't have an MMO any more".  Which doesn't sound like crying to me.  It sounds like sense.

How about the mechanisms you put into the game to make sure that players stick around and subscribe for months or years? If reaching the level cap takes someone X months of pointless grinding against the same four quest patterns and the same two dozen art assets, of course they're going to get bored and, at some point, try to circumvent the system.

Your argument here and after seems to be that the systems MMO designers implement, in order to make money, are inherently boring or not fun, and so encourage RMT.  You then go on to suggest that they should not implement such systems, i.e. that they should not do what makes them money.  This is dumb.

[tmp]

1)  How is the bot cutting into your fun?  There is no difference in a bot killing 'your' mobs (that you don't own) than a player that just wants to be a dick about things.

Difference is lack of said dick player behind the keyboard. That means the dick can be sleeping or being dick in competely different zone while the bot carries out the dick duty. Essentially doubling the amount of dick in the game, more if there's dicks running multiple bots each.

[DarkSign]

MULTIHEADED DICKS HITTING ASS AND THIGH...OH GAWD ITS HEVAN!

[Raph]

Oh boo hoo hoo, look at all of these mechanisms we put into the game to make it harder for players to get together and socialize and help each other out.

Fixed that for you.

All the countermeasures against RMT (and for that matter, against everything Darniaq listed) have demonstrably made it much much HARDER to get together and socialize. Surely everyone can agree on that?

[CharlieMopps]

Oh boo hoo hoo, look at all of these mechanisms we put into the game to make it harder for players to get together and socialize and help each other out.

Fixed that for you.

All the countermeasures against RMT (and for that matter, against everything Darniaq listed) have demonstrably made it much much HARDER to get together and socialize. Surely everyone can agree on that?

You're damned right.

Also... if there IS RMT in a game... it will eventually be INEVITABLE that it will be decided in some obscure court case that in-game money is equivalent to REAL money. When that happens, the governments going to get involved and unleash a world of hurt on MMO's all over.

[tmp]

All the countermeasures against RMT (and for that matter, against everything Darniaq listed) have demonstrably made it much much HARDER to get together and socialize. Surely everyone can agree on that?

So did instancing, shift of design paradigm to focus on ability of people to solo their way to the 'end of game' and --ironically enough-- the social tools like guilds which wind up as convenient mechanics to avoid everyone who's not part of guild. I'm just not sure if i'll agree with you that "the point of MMO" is to make people socialize first and foremost and as much as possible. Certainly not if the players themselves are any indication, as the tendency in last few years appears to be, people want to play these games while socializing as little as possible. The MMO aspect seem to have very little to do with socializing, and much more with waving the e-peen in front of sea of strangers. The bigger, the better.

[qedetc]

The MMO aspect seem to have very little to do with socializing, and much more with waving the e-peen in front of sea of strangers. The bigger, the better.

flashing people is a form of social interaction.

[Raph]

All the countermeasures against RMT (and for that matter, against everything Darniaq listed) have demonstrably made it much much HARDER to get together and socialize. Surely everyone can agree on that?

So did instancing, shift of design paradigm to focus on ability of people to solo their way to the 'end of game' and --ironically enough-- the social tools like guilds which wind up as convenient mechanics to avoid everyone who's not part of guild. I'm just not sure if i'll agree with you that "the point of MMO" is to make people socialize first and foremost and as much as possible. Certainly not if the players themselves are any indication, as the tendency in last few years appears to be, people want to play these games while socializing as little as possible. The MMO aspect seem to have very little to do with socializing, and much more with waving the e-peen in front of sea of strangers. The bigger, the better.

I am not sure this is actually the case, and would love to have hard stats on it.  Certainly "playing alone together" and soloability is a huge thing (and I have been an advocate of soloability since the get-go). But I think most people still treat WOW and other games as basically the bar they go to hang out at.

[waylander]

A repost of my response to RMT from over at Lum's site.  Again, I post this from the perspective of a guildmaster who has to deal with resource issues and manage the collective effort of a top tier competitive guild with 13 years of success.

I am sorry to say this, but the developers have created the RMT market due to poor game design. Last year I wrote an article about MMORPG’s (http://www.lotd.org/index.php?page=31), and reiterated that the current design isn’t friendly to the average PC gamer. There are too many time based barriers that prevent people from being able to game with their friends. That lead me to write another article about making guild friendly games (http://www.lotd.org/index.php?page=63). Both of these articles are extremely popular at Guildcafe.com, and Guildcafe now has close to 60,000 members. I’ll also point out that I’m the most famous person there..p.

Anyway dealing just with RMT and not the other barriers, it basically boils down to a couple of things. The first thing is that in most games you gain money by sitting there mindlessly bashing mobs, mindlessly crafting, or mindlessly running delivery type quests. That is boring as hell, and it takes up a lot of someone’s time. Your average PC gamer (30 years old) has 1-3 hours per day to play your game, and they don’t want to spend 2 hours of it doing boring things.

Too many games have made someone’s virtual worth all about the gear they wear. So people who don’t have the right gear don’t get in the fun groups. In order to get that gear, they need real or virtual money to outright buy it or in-game money to craft it. Once they have their phat lewt, they get in the good groups. So the guy who has the money but not the time is going going to buy what he needs so he can skip through the boring stuff, and get to the good stuff.

This also goes into the RMT for powerleveling services. I have paid for powerleveling services in two games in recent years because I simply don’t have the time to slosh through the boring stuff, and I can’t keep up with my friends who can play more than me. So I can be left behind and quit the game, or I can pay someone to level me so I can keep playing with my friends. Most games force you to quit or pay for powerleveling because their grouping mechanics penalize higher level people from doing anything with lower level people.

CoH has a sidekick program that’s cool, but it sucks for helping lower level people catch up with the higher level people. Also if you get too far from your higher level mentor you become a newbie again and die easily. The lower level guy brings nothing to the group because he’s only got access to his low level powers, and thus the brilliant idea ultimately fails.

The other side of this is guild based advancement. Many guilds need to have a lot of things to offer their members in order to attract and retain new recruits. Therefore they are willing to buy resources they need to craft things, develop a cool guild house, or even buy Powerleveled characters that are specifically tailored to help the guild achieve PVE or PVP goals.

IMHO if developers want to crush external RMT services, then they need to be willing to offer the same type of service. People are always going to be crunched for time and willing to buy premade characters, uber items, gold, etc. You will never crush the external market so long as games are stuck in a “massive time spent = game advancement” model.

Or developers could simply have a system that lets people powerlevel their friends easily, have good item drops as a standard part of the game, develop a flat leveling curve so that after a certain point levels don’t matter a whole lot while speeding up advancement to that point, make a solo game more viable with missions that can be done in 60 minutes or less, and giving guilds the tools they need to actually help their membership.

But otherwise sitting here crying about RMT is stupid because it is a direct result of poor game design that doesn’t fit the profile of a 30 year old gamer with a professional career, real life responsibilities, and money to burn so he can bypass all the bullshit you find in today’s game design.

[geldonyetich2]

Disclaimer: I've had a severe pain in the neck for the last couple days, so I'm not in a good mood.

Myth: RMT does not create bad behavior. Without it people would find a different way to cheat, in that or another game.
Fact: RMT does create bad behavior. Farmers who are in it for RMT are often quite aggressive and annoying players, and many of us have witnessed this first hand.  In-game advertising of RMT services is another form of bad behavior.  Just a few days ago I witnessed how a City of Heroes email spam bot totally clogs the entire consignment system.

Myth: RMT does not cause advertising. The ability to spam does.
Fact: RMT does cause advertising on the merit that paying for RMT facilities the business.
If nobody ever did RMT, there'd be a whole lot less advertising it.  Every time you pay for RMT, you are responsible for my future in-game spam, and I rightfully resent you for it.
Likely the only way that the could remove "the ability to spam" would be to remove player to player communication from the game entirely.  Yes, RMT conductors are that good at gaming the system.

Myth: Only stupid companies cheat at the game and piss off players while conducting RMT. Nails to be hammered by Blizzard.
Fact: To call somebody "stupid" is a cop-out - these people had genuine motivations to game the system, and they were clever enough to find ways to do it.  They're being no more "stupid" than any other participant of organized crime.
Opinion: If you are conducting RMT at all, you are both facilitating players cheating while pissing off players as myself, thus there is no "stupid company" differential.  All RMT participants should be hammered by responsible MMORPG companies who clearly state in their TOS that RMT is not allowed in their game.

Myth: Anyone who thinks RMTing gets players to l33tdom hasn't played a post EQ2 MMO at the endgame, when the real separation betwee[n] have and have-nots begins.
Fact: Whether or not it actually delivers l33tdom to players, this is what RMT participants think they are getting.  This emerges as a point that RMT not only games the system but cheats its participants as well.

Myth: There is no actual Magic Circle of immersion. It's all in the mind. If your immersion absolutely requires everyone else feel that same level of immersion, you're in the wrong genre, and as pissed by RMTs as you are by g1ml1 and dirkv4der.
Fact: Well okay, that one's a fact.  However, fostering suspension of disbelief is an important enjoyment level of the game to many players.  It's the roleplayer's motivation, the imagination creating enjoyment, and it's the only genuine part of RPG that ever was.  To refute this as worthless illusion that needs to be discarded is to brand all RPGs as worthless as nothing more than adding machines or (at best) strategy games.

[Ratman_tf]

RMT companies fill up my games with spam. Spam in-game emails. Spam group invites and /whispers.

On a very good day, I can tolerate the spam. On a bad day, it fills me with teh rage. Hulk level rage. I'd smash them in the face with gamma-irradiated fists if I could.

I hate spam.

Re: Socailization. Most all MMOGs are designed to kill socalization and drive us all to soloing anyway. If they don't give a fuck about it, why should we?

[Venkman]

Great thoughts all!

It causes inflation. Prices on newbie/mid level items go up faster than a real newbie/mid leveler can afford if they don't buy gold.

RMT does create bad behavior. Farmers...

Farming causes inflation. Farming is the "bad" behavior. RMTing is just one transaction to help move the gold around. Remove the need to farm, or place the major rewards behind other gates.

And Geldon, you're niave if you think advertising would go down without RMTing. Like I said above, visit any commerce center. There's virtually no actual RMT advertising, and yet you can barely keep up with what's being barked. You ever stand in Coronet Starport pre-CU? In EC tunnel before Luclin? Ironforge? Bree?

In more recent games, random tells and random party invites have risen, but those are a joke. Add to the /ignore list. If adding someone to ignore is a problem for you (in general, not just you personally), then you're either very tolerant of everything but RMTing, or you don't run into other people often

Whether or not it actually delivers l33tdom to players, this is what RMT participants think they are getting.

The very first time they make a purchase. They are not repeat customers though. Some games have been designing them out of the equation (BoP, rep-rewards, etc).

3. Those fuckers are using keyloggers, trojans and other nasty things that normal computer users are not aware.

These are the fly-by-nighters, not the professional RMTers (why I called this class of operator "stupid"). You don't go pro and stay there by constantly doing the sort of stupid stuff that a) any company can recognize is happening; and, b) IP-bans for. There's only so many times you go buy a new box and switch around your IP address before it starts cutting into your business. Nah, the pro RMTers exist under the radar.

However, I agree with your other part about the taxable income. There's been talk of it already, and if the industry does continue to grow, it'll eventually be a legitimate source of taxable income. That is, unless the industry in the West evolves the way it did in Korea and just internalizes RMT

But I think most people still treat WOW and other games as basically the bar they go to hang out at.

I think this goes back to the whole "Designing in the downtime". There isn't enough of it in WoW, certainly not like SWG, UO or early EQ1. I'd say WoW is more like the local OTB: go to "win" but have some other corrollary fun as well.

[IainC]

I blogged about this a while ago, you can read what I wrote here.

Additionally, from the POV of a game provider rather than a player, RMT sucks and not just because we aren't getting a slice of that cash. It massively increases customer support calls and puts a CS department into a position where they have to determine whether a player is lying to us about sharing his account with a third party (pro-tip: customers don't enjoy being called out on lies). For those unaware, the majority of gold for sale does not spontaneously pop into existence. Normally the gold is generated as a by product of a powerlevelling operation - players purchase powerlevelling, hand their accounts over to some extremely honest and upstanding individuals who PL them vs cash rich mobs. The gold generated while PLing then gets converted into an easily storable and tradeable format.

Anyone who doesn't think that is an issue is frankly deluding themselves.

As a player I hate it because if I wanted to be playing a game where the thickness of my wallet gave me an advantage, I'd have picked one of those games from the start. They exist, they do very well indeed but I'm not interested thanks. That's not to say I enjoy mindless grinding but that's a cop-out. If you want to play the game then play the damn game already. Good games design should make all aspects of the game fun and generally that's true, even in traditional DIKU games, levelling and so forth can be fun if you make it so. Choosing to play in an unfun manner does not give you the right to bitch that the game isn't fun.

[Venkman]

Do you think the motivation to play as you describe would be any less without the secondary market?

[geldonyetich2]

And Geldon, you're niave if you think advertising would go down without RMTing. Like I said above, visit any commerce center. There's virtually no actual RMT advertising, and yet you can barely keep up with what's being barked. You ever stand in Coronet Starport pre-CU? In EC tunnel before Luclin? Ironforge? Bree?

What the hell does RMT advertising have to do with advertising legitimate in-game services and goods (such as a Coronet doctor advertising he can buff people).  Don't call me naive if you're blathering this shit.

Ack, my back, the ibuprofen, it does nothing.

[Ratman_tf]

In more recent games, random tells and random party invites have risen, but those are a joke. Add to the /ignore list. If adding someone to ignore is a problem for you (in general, not just you personally), then you're either very tolerant of everything but RMTing, or you don't run into other people often

Dude. In WoW it had reached a fever pitch the last time I logged in about two months ago.

Anytime I logged in it was every fucking 5 or 15 minutes. Ping. /tell. /invite. email notification. Any one of these fuckers put on ignore is gone from the game within 20 minutes, and another /tell is incoming from Pat00000000120120152359.

I can only assume that these jackanapes spend thousands and thousands of dollars a day on WoW accounts for spam purposes.

[Venkman]

Now ya got me wondering if it's smarter for RMTers to advertise from their bot accounts to spam from special spam accounts . On the one hand it's cheaper (and you can spam while farming). On the other, a banned spammer also becomes a banned farmer.

I play these games probably as much as any but the most elite here, and have always played on the most populated servers (on purpose). I never seem to suffer the attacks that others do so much. I'm either lucky or playing at the wrong times.

What the hell does RMT advertising have to do with advertising legitimate in-game services and goods (such as a Coronet doctor advertising he can buff people).  Don't call me naive if you're blathering this shit.

It's advertising at all. Advertising itself would not go down if you magically removed RMT. The vacuum would be filled by something else. And don't pull that "legit" bullshit either. People were farming, exploiting and pissing off other players in competitive-spawn/supply-demand virtual economies since they've existed. You've played in those games too. Maybe "niave" was the wrong word...

[geldonyetich2]

I don't care about people advertising to sell in-game stuff for in-game stuff.  I care about people advertising about out-of-game stuff.  It's an immersion breaker, but not only that, it's also annoying because I prefer people progress by playing the game instead of paying real money to the people that rape it.

[tmp]

But I think most people still treat WOW and other games as basically the bar they go to hang out at.

But then the ability to echange gear/money with other player or lack thereof doesn't actually affect such casual bar-like interaction. For that matter you probably don't need large parts of what's typically put in MMO to get the 'virtual bar to hang out at', and the desired functionality can be pretty much duplicated by any single player or small multi-player game paired with chat server. Or in some cases by chat server alone. So dramatic hyperboles how removal of option to trade goods might as well mean the game should be devoid of any ability to interact whatsoever... it sort of falls flat and short of making the point.

[JoeTF]

You want to get rid of RTM, you ban PL customers. The whole thing about RTM is about finding equilibrium point between money lost from banned costumers and money lost from increased CS costs.

[Venkman]

But then the ability to echange gear/money with other player or lack thereof doesn't actually affect such casual bar-like interaction. For that matter you probably don't need large parts of what's typically put in MMO to get the 'virtual bar to hang out at', and the desired functionality can be pretty much duplicated by any single player or small multi-player game paired with chat server. Or in some cases by chat server alone. So dramatic hyperboles how removal of option to trade goods might as well mean the game should be devoid of any ability to interact whatsoever... it sort of falls flat and short of making the point.

There's no single feature that makes up a socially-interactive space, just as there is no single type of player that represents everyone in it. These games are not just virtual bars. In fact, I don't think that's a good analogy. Rather, I consider them more like Off Track Betting places, casinos, or even bowling alleys.

• You go there for a purpose
• You are hoping to achieve something
• You are surrounded with elements that both support this goal and distract from it
• Those distractions provide downtime so you can recharge your batteries while not leaving the world itself so that it's easier to get back on the achievement track.

One of those distractions is the ability to socialize. But that's part of the total experience you're seeking. People say MMORPG goals are social lubricants, a way to get people comfortable being and working together. I don't. Rather, I thank that for the popular MMORPGs, the game is the reason people go, and they socialize along the way because there happens to be other people there (beyond the folks they brought themselves).

These worlds are a balance of a lot of different things. RMTing is just a result of one way of playing these games (farming), itself a result of some design decisions along the way (grind vs narrative-based achievement, and everything form junk to l33t tradeable). These games have already been adding restrictions to interaction.

And for the emotionally-charged out there, consider the actual impact of RMT versus the supposed and theoretical. Then find some people who don't live these games day and night, but who play them occasionally, and ask them what they think (and not in a "do you like to achieve how the game was intended or do you support the rampant cheating of exploiters and bots?" sorta way ). You might be surprised what the "Average person" thinks.

[qedetc]

Rather, I consider them more like Off Track Betting places, casinos, or even bowling alleys.

It's more like boardwalk skiball.  You go, maybe with some friends, put in a few quarters to play skeeball, get some tickets, get more tickets if you don't suck, and use those tickets to buy junk.  But if you really really want that junk, and you suck at skeeball, you could just pay Sally Skeeballqueen 5 bucks for her 500 tickets, and then you can trade those tickets for a sweet laval lamp.  So Sally gets her $5, you get your lava lamp, and the arcade gets its quarters, everyones happy!

But then Freddy Frumpyjeans comes along!  Freddy is angry because he wants to play skeeball, but Sally Skeeballqueen's lucrative business has grown, and she now operates 6 skeeball lanes, leaving only 2 open, and Ronald Rollballs and Teddy Tosser are already on those lanes.  But Sally Skeeballqueen is making her money running lanes, Ronald and Teddy are having fun, you've got your lava lamp, and the arcade jockey is making money off of all 8 skeeball lanes.  So no one cares about Freddy Frumpypants.

The End.