Transformers reinvented. Again.

[Lantyssa]

I'm not opposed to saying anime-style.  We all know what someone means when they use it, even if technically everything is anime, or one wants to use it to mean Japanimation (which never caught on for a reason).  Insisting it is a true style though is incorrect.

[Mrbloodworth]

Sorry, had to take a few day nap there.

The only real "Western" component was some of the writing changed. Other than that, the style was through and through anime.

Anime is still not a style.  Your art school is wrong, at least given its origin.  Maybe they're being stupid and have co-opted the word.  From the wikipedia article you mentioned:

Linguistically, the anime definition is subject to interpretation. In Japan, the term does not specify an animation's nation of origin or style; instead, it is used as a blanket term to refer to all forms of animation from around the world.[11][12] In English, main dictionary sources define anime as "a Japanese style of motion-picture animation" or "a style of animation developed in Japan".[13] Common uses of the term is Japanese explicit, among Western audiences.[citation needed] Furthermore, the terms "cartoon" or "animated series" used for most other visual styles, particularly for French, Korean, and American animation.[citation needed] Any non-Japanese works are called anime-influenced animation, if they borrow any stylization from Japanese animation. Even so, some anime are co-productions with non-Japanese companies, like the Cartoon Network and Production IG series IGPX. Yet, a French-Japanese co-production such as Ōban Star-Racers is not considered anime.

Some history: The reason Western audiences even know about anime is thanks to a handful of people bringing a few series over and Americanizing them. (Yes, Robotech is one.  Not for the reason you think, and despite being completely rewritten by Macek.)  These shows stuck with the kids who were amazed that cartoons could be mature.  With the wonders overseas friends with video recorders, it became very popular for college kids to 'import' and dub every series released by Japan in the early to mid '90s.  Categorically, the word 'anime' was used to describe any animated project originating from Japan.  It was a simplistic way to recognize the things with good writing, art, and fun to watch versus the absolute crap being peddled over here.  But anyone into the anime scene at the time knew the origin of the word, and was 'weeabo' enough to know that it was just the Japanese word for animation.

The entire thing was done by an underground network of geeks until it reached enough critical mass to become mainstream.  I know because I was there.  I partipated and helped run animation clubs before your art school had ever heard of the term.

It. Is. Not. A. Fucking. Style.

I have already explained this. So have others. Its a sub forum of animation.

Not all animation is anime. The term is used to describe a form of animation based on magna. It has its own techniques and commonality's.

Little history for you: Lonny toons is animation (Specifically Cartoon, it also has its own set of techniques, and commonality's), its also not anime, and they were all written for adult audiences. But, again, subject matter and content have nothing to do with what i'm talking about.

And you seemed to have missed this part.

In English, main dictionary sources define anime as "a Japanese style of motion-picture animation" or "a style of animation developed in Japan".[13] Common uses of the term is Japanese explicit, among Western audiences.[citation needed] Furthermore, the terms "cartoon" or "animated series" used for most other visual styles, particularly for French, Korean, and American animation.[citation needed] Any non-Japanese works are called anime-influenced animation, if they borrow any stylization from Japanese animation.

I'm not opposed to saying anime-style.  We all know what someone means when they use it, even if technically everything is anime, or one wants to use it to mean Japanimation (which never caught on for a reason).  Insisting it is a true style though is incorrect.

No, its not incorrect. Anime has its own set of techniques and commonalities. You wont find them in Cartoon animation. While most of Anime style comes from magna, the animation techniques are different than other animated art. (of course every rule has an exception especially as time goes on).

[Jain Zar]

The only real "Western" component was some of the writing changed. Other than that, the style was through and through anime.

That picture is done by western artists though.  Udon Studios.  
You couldn't find any art by Kawamori or Mikimoto?

(Yes, Udon has an anime influence.  But depending on what weeaboo you talk to, its not anime unless someone from Japan draws it.  Because if we count influences, then anime is Walt Disney influenced.  And the weeaboos can't worship Japan that way.)

[Mrbloodworth]

The only real "Western" component was some of the writing changed. Other than that, the style was through and through anime.

That picture is done by western artists though.  Udon Studios. 
You couldn't find any art by Kawamori or Mikimoto?

(Yes, Udon has an anime influence.  But depending on what weeaboo you talk to, its not anime unless someone from Japan draws it.  Because if we count influences, then anime is Walt Disney influenced.  And the weeaboos can't worship Japan that way.)

County of origin has nothing to do with it. When you classify things, its done by common features and techniques. Not nationality of the person who drew, or animated it.

[Teleku]

The word anime in English and the word anime in Japanese are completely different words that just happen to sound the same ;).  In English, anime means Japanese cartoon style.  Everything from Japan uses that god damn style (there is alot of diversity within that style, but you can still look at any of it and easily say its anime).  I would just say Japanese cartoons, but so many people copy that style now, it doesn't need to actually have anything to do with Japan anymore. 

Its best if you just think of anime as a totally English word, that has no correlation to the word in Japanese, which just happens to be spelled exactly the same by some fluke, non-related chance. ;)


Oh, and for the love of God, stop calling them Harmony Gold mech designs.  Harmony Gold had absolutely nothing to do with the way anything in Robotech was designed or looked.  They are MACROSS designs.  MAAAAAACRRRROOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSS!!!!!1!!!

[Lantyssa]

Its best if you just think of anime as a totally English word, that has no correlation to the word in Japanese, which just happens to be spelled exactly the same by some fluke, non-related chance. ;)

Not gonna happen since when I learned the word, it just meant animation.  It wouldd be like redefining the term "live-action".

[Roac]

Anime is still not a style.  Your art school is wrong, at least given its origin.  Maybe they're being stupid and have co-opted the word.  From the wikipedia article you mentioned:

Wait, wait, wait...

In English, main dictionary sources define anime as "a Japanese style of motion-picture animation" or "a style of animation developed in Japan".

Most people on this board speak English.  Not Japanese.  English definition wins.

[Cim]

Can they just retire the Transformers now?  20 years is enough. They can revive it in 10 and it'll be awesome.

[Jain Zar]

Oh, and for the love of God, stop calling them Harmony Gold mech designs.  Harmony Gold had absolutely nothing to do with the way anything in Robotech was designed or looked.  They are MACROSS designs.  MAAAAAACRRRROOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSS!!!!!1!!!

I've already said that.  Then again in the above thread I am quoted then someone says the same thing I do only in a nice way instead of my bitter aches and pains my doctor seems unable to do anything about make me angry manner.

And as I mentioned, the Battletech designs everyone on a nostalgia trip seems to spooge over (which is semi understandable since they are very nice designs.  I have many of them in various toy and model forms..) are from THREE DIFFERENT SHOWS.
Macross
Dougram
Crusher Joe

Harmony Gold took Macross, Southern Cross, Mospeada, and Megazone 23 and made one show out of em.  (The latter only in the barely seen 80s movie.)

Like Fasa, they subliscensed the stuff from a company that really wasn't supposed to be doing so.  21st Century Imports for Fasa, Tatsunoko for Harmony Gold. 
(However Tatsunoko owns Mospeada and Southern Cross which is why those designs are seen heavily in Sentinels and Shadow Chronicles.  HG kinda has to tiptoe with the Macross stuff.)
Fasa and Harmony Gold got into a pissing match and Fasa being a game company had to give up or watch their company die in a lawsuit even though they had a chance to win.
In a strange bit of karma biting one on the ass, Harmony Gold now faces similar problems.  Just like Fasa its not really their fault, but its a problem nonetheless.
Fasa after all this dropped ANY mech design that was outsourced even if they commissioned the art in the first place.  Which is why the Solaris 7 and 3055 Clan IIC designs disappeared.
They didn't want any chance of getting fucked again, so the designs FOR them by Studio Nue and Victor Musical Industries also went away.


Can anyone tell I like giant stompy robots?

[WindupAtheist]

You are doing yourself a major disservice imo, I really get a kick out of the cast of that one, villains included.  It does have its fair share of cheese but its a great deal of fun, I was pissed as fuck when it ended.

I've been interwebbing TT episodes off and on for a couple weeks now, and I gotta say the fifth season kinda sucked.  It wasn't a total loss or anything, but it just came off as jumbled and full of weird shit that only fanboys wanted to see.  I can buy throwing in a Doom Patrol episode since it ties directly into the backstory of a central character, but making the brain in a jar and the talking ape and all that shit the main villains of the whole final story arc was weak.

I mean the show always had stupid campy villains, but previously it seemed to KNOW those villains were stupid and campy and it treated them as such.  In the fifth season, they actually seemed to expect the audience to take the brain and the talking monkey seriously.  Before when they wanted to be serious, they broke out a serious villain like Slade.

Meh, I know, kiddie cartoon.  But they wrote at a certain level, and that level dropped in the last season.

[Jain Zar]

You are doing yourself a major disservice imo, I really get a kick out of the cast of that one, villains included.  It does have its fair share of cheese but its a great deal of fun, I was pissed as fuck when it ended.

I've been interwebbing TT episodes off and on for a couple weeks now, and I gotta say the fifth season kinda sucked.  It wasn't a total loss or anything, but it just came off as jumbled and full of weird shit that only fanboys wanted to see.  I can buy throwing in a Doom Patrol episode since it ties directly into the backstory of a central character, but making the brain in a jar and the talking ape and all that shit the main villains of the whole final story arc was weak.

I mean the show always had stupid campy villains, but previously it seemed to KNOW those villains were stupid and campy and it treated them as such.  In the fifth season, they actually seemed to expect the audience to take the brain and the talking monkey seriously.  Before when they wanted to be serious, they broke out a serious villain like Slade.

Meh, I know, kiddie cartoon.  But they wrote at a certain level, and that level dropped in the last season.

Mallah and the brain are AWESOME DAMMIT.  A big gay french gorilla and his evil brain in a jar lover.  (Ok, that's more in the comics, but still...)

[Hoax]

You are doing yourself a major disservice imo, I really get a kick out of the cast of that one, villains included.  It does have its fair share of cheese but its a great deal of fun, I was pissed as fuck when it ended.

I've been interwebbing TT episodes off and on for a couple weeks now, and I gotta say the fifth season kinda sucked.  It wasn't a total loss or anything, but it just came off as jumbled and full of weird shit that only fanboys wanted to see.  I can buy throwing in a Doom Patrol episode since it ties directly into the backstory of a central character, but making the brain in a jar and the talking ape and all that shit the main villains of the whole final story arc was weak.

I mean the show always had stupid campy villains, but previously it seemed to KNOW those villains were stupid and campy and it treated them as such.  In the fifth season, they actually seemed to expect the audience to take the brain and the talking monkey seriously.  Before when they wanted to be serious, they broke out a serious villain like Slade.

Meh, I know, kiddie cartoon.  But they wrote at a certain level, and that level dropped in the last season.

Yeah I'm not sure if there was some writer turn over or if they knew the show was ending or what.  But your right, some of the charm wore off at the end.  Early eps with Doctor Light & Brother Blood were total high points, also I remember liking the mothra ep.

[WindupAtheist]

I looked at the Wikipedia entry for the Tokyo movie just now, and found this.

Teen Titans head writer David Slack returned for this movie, having left the series after its fourth season (which was intended to be the last at the time)

I did like the very last episode, though.  Particularly the final scene.  Taking a wacky superhero cartoon and ending it on that sort of note was an interesting move.

[Riggswolfe]

This what anime is or isn't discussion is interesting.In the early 90s I was only able to see most anime at roleplaying conventions and such in the "anime" room until I got my own sources. (Yeah, I was one of those geeks.) Anime to everyone I know who had those experiences means Japanese animation. It's a style and one you can easily recognize.

I find this whole argument really, really bizarre since this is the first time I've heard anyone say anime is anything other than Japanese animation and the style it uses.

[Lantyssa]

I find this whole argument really, really bizarre since this is the first time I've heard anyone say anime is anything other than Japanese animation and the style it uses.

It's the "style" bit I am protesting.

There are dozens of styles, which vary depending upon the studio, the original manga artist, the character designer, the decade it was produced, etc.  Just like there is no one genre for anime, there isn't one style used.  No one would claim US animation is all done in the same style, yet a person who supposedly attended art school is claiming anime is just that, a singular style.  Is all European work only Impressionistic?

Even calling it a "movement" is silly, as we're talking about an entire body of work from a single country (and various imitations) spanning decades with highly varied looks.  It is all anime, and we only call it that because it's far easier than saying "Japanese produced cartoons" every time we refer to this collective whole.

Yeah, it is a bizarre argument to get my bloomers wadded up for.  I spent my young adult life immersing myself in the anime culture though, and to see someone get it so friggin' wrong because their art teacher is ignorant of fairly recent (albeit underground at the time) history, then defend it, annoys me to no end.

[Hoax]

I looked at the Wikipedia entry for the Tokyo movie just now, and found this.

Teen Titans head writer David Slack returned for this movie, having left the series after its fourth season (which was intended to be the last at the time)

I did like the very last episode, though.  Particularly the final scene.  Taking a wacky superhero cartoon and ending it on that sort of note was an interesting move.

Thanks for that tidbit, it always seemed like something had gone wrong.


/m/ weighs in.

[Mrbloodworth]

I find this whole argument really, really bizarre since this is the first time I've heard anyone say anime is anything other than Japanese animation and the style it uses.

It's the "style" bit I am protesting.

There are dozens of styles, which vary depending upon the studio, the original manga artist, the character designer, the decade it was produced, etc.  Just like there is no one genre for anime, there isn't one style used.  No one would claim US animation is all done in the same style, yet a person who supposedly attended art school is claiming anime is just that, a singular style.  Is all European work only Impressionistic?

Even calling it a "movement" is silly, as we're talking about an entire body of work from a single country (and various imitations) spanning decades with highly varied looks.  It is all anime, and we only call it that because it's far easier than saying "Japanese produced cartoons" every time we refer to this collective whole.

Yeah, it is a bizarre argument to get my bloomers wadded up for.  I spent my young adult life immersing myself in the anime culture though, and to see someone get it so friggin' wrong because their art teacher is ignorant of fairly recent (albeit underground at the time) history, then defend it, annoys me to no end.

Here is the part your missing. Its a style of animation, a Technique used IN THE PRODUCTION. I think the miscommunication is is that i'm looking at it from the production and creation side, and your looking at it from a consumer side. Specifically in the reguards of the Animation its self.

[Jain Zar]

Im not sure why its even worth crying over the style. Batman TAS looked dumb on first glance, but once it was actively seen in motion and how good the actual stories were nobody cared.
Hell, the style became influential and the show is considered one of the best cartoons out there.

I'm willing to give the new series a chance.

Everyone else should too and stop jacking off the original shitty cartoon that really wasn't any good ever.

[stray]

Sheeeiiit... The original cartoon was badass. The fuck?? Especially the movie. That was shocking then, and shocking now.

[Jain Zar]

The movie was glorious cheese, one of my favorite movies of all time.  (Its under Aliens, Fight Club, and Seven.)

But the original cartoon was awful shit.  Try watching it.  Its really really dumb, with terrible animation riddled with errors.
And continuity errors to an insane degree.
The US/UK comics were pretty good though.

[Mazakiel]

Sheeeiiit... The original cartoon was badass. The fuck?? Especially the movie. That was shocking then, and shocking now.

I rewatched the movie awhile back when it was released as a special edition or whatever to tie in with the movie release.  I'd forgotten just how brutal it was, especially the opening fight.  As a kid, Optimus dying made me cry like a baby. Even more than the end of Charlotte's Web. 


As to the cartoon series, while parts of it don't hold up so well, I still say it's better than a large amount of the shit they've got coming out these days. 

[Ironwood]

I was always surprised by the Transformers Movie, then and now.  If someone had put some of the scenes in there live action, it would never have seen release.

I mean, seriously, the toy line and cartoons got us loving the hell out these characters and identifying with them like family.

Then you see them blasted apart, Ratchet with smoke coming out of his mouth as he topples backwards, Arcee dragging the lifeless, grey and mutilated corpse of Wheeljack.  Ultra Magnus violently pulled apart (something cut from the movie, strangely, but kept in the comic adaptation), and many many favourites actually throwing into melting pools where they screamed their last agony as they glowed white hot and ran. Hell, we even had sympathy for Megatron as he and his zombie like casualties were thrown from their ship to die in outer space.

Seriously, those who don't get the Original Transformers movie scare me.  Serial Killers, I tell you.

[stray]

Saddest death to me is Jazz... That sucked! Jazz was a black man. And a beatnik. The dude deserved better.


And to make matters worse, he dies like a punk in the live action movie too.

[edit] wait.. err.. did jazz die in the cartoon? now I can't remember. maybe i'm thinking of ratchet getting blasted by megatron.

[WindupAtheist]

Jazz survived the movie, but Scatman died shortly thereafter and so we never really saw Jazz again.

And yeah, the original Transformers was a fucking harrowing yet awesome experience for its intended audience.  When autobots started getting shot and falling over dead, my brain took a minute to process WTF was going on.  That just wasn't supposed to happen.  Ever.

[Roac]

I was always surprised by the Transformers Movie, then and now.  If someone had put some of the scenes in there live action, it would never have seen release.

I mean, seriously, the toy line and cartoons got us loving the hell out these characters and identifying with them like family.

I was... 8?  when I saw it, and yeah, it was an incredibly jarring experience.  I don't think it was because the death scenes were that traumatic, and I think watching the opening scene from Saving Private Ryan as an adult was harder to take.  What hit like a brick is what WUA said - that wasn't supposed to happen.  Prime, dead?  The fuck? 

Good thing came out of it, though.  I realized that everything I'd been watching was horribly sugar coated; all these guns, bombs, and whatever and nobody died.  It's an obvious thing, but something you take for granted at that age, just like the coyote falls off the cliff or crushed under a house sized boulder and gets up again.  You know things don't work that way in the real world, but there's just a disconnect between that and cartoonish storytelling.  I think the movie killed cartoons for me after that, because I started to realize how horribly predictable they were. 

So good job to the writers for waking up some sense of literary criticism in a kid, even if their intent was only to wipe the slate for a new toy line.  Bad job for making the same kid shit his pants in terror. 

[Simond]

One could argue that the movie is another tick on the 'Transformers = Anime' side of the ledger: Saturday Morning Cartoons did not generally kill off their heroes, whereas the Japanese analogue of Saturday Morning Cartoons does so with distressing regularity (Kamina! Nooooo!).


...if one were so inclined. 

[Roac]

One could argue that the movie is another tick on the 'Transformers = Anime' side of the ledger: Saturday Morning Cartoons did not generally kill off their heroes, whereas the Japanese analogue of Saturday Morning Cartoons does so with distressing regularity (Kamina! Nooooo!).

 

Not really influenced by that, since the stated goal was to kill off everyone so that they could sell a new toy line next year. 

[WindupAtheist]

My first viewing of that movie held more tension for me as a kid than practically anything else ever has.  It took all of my expectations, all of the rules that my nine year old self "knew" it was supposed to play by, and wiped its ass on them right out of the gate.

I mean sure, it was a pretty routine "hero's journey" once they got done killing off all the old characters in the early going, but I hadn't had time to figure that out yet as I was sitting in the theater.  All I knew was HOLY SHIT GOODGUYS CAN DIE IN THIS MOVIE!  Kup and Hot Rod are fighting a bunch of shark assholes?  Will they get their faces ripped off and die?  Well they really shouldn't since they appear to be the heroes, but this movie killed OPTIMUS FUCKING PRIME so who the hell knows?

It couldn't have been like that if I weren't that age, if I didn't have that pre-existing stake in the characters, and if they weren't willing to just kill them all willy-nilly.  It was this weird little perfect storm of circumstances.

[stray]

I think Robocop did the "Holy shit, good guys can die" thing for me.

Also, the horse from Neverending Story. Lol

[Ironwood]

Who died in Robocop ?

[WindupAtheist]

I was raised on R-rated movies, but this was different.  Sure people got blown away all the time in dad's movies, but this was Transformers.  This was mine.  People didn't say stuff like "Oh shit!" or get shot and die in stuff meant for me.  It was mind-blowing.

God, that bit where Megatron shot Ironhide in the face as he was crawling up and grabbing his leg.  It was so hardcore.  lol

[Ironwood]

Such Heroic Nonsense...

[stray]

Who died in Robocop ?

I'm just kidding. We knew Murphy had it coming.

But just the way he died. Jesus. That was way too much. I was raised on R rated movies too... I mean, I think my Dad dragged me to Scarface when I was like 7.. But it was pretty damn sad seeing a cop get his head blown off by a shotgun back then (it's been edited out in some versions... not sure if everyone's seen it like I did).

Similar to Transformers was Duke in the G.I. Joe cartoon movie. The body count wasn't nearly the same, but as far as G.I. Joe goes, he was similar to Optimus Prime.

Watching Superman get his ass kicked by a trucker was pretty traumatizing, if I recall.

[Ironwood]

2 Things :

1 - Murphy didn't die.  That's kinda the point.  Did you get dragged out before the end of the film ?

2 - When was it you were taken to see Robocop ?  'Cause I'm already concerned at anyone who might think Scarface is suitable for a 7 year old.  Lol.  And whatnot...

[WindupAtheist]

I remember Murphy getting fucked up as being pretty gut-wrenching as a kid, but then Murphy was just some guy at that point and not a character I had any real investment in.