Champions Online: The No-NDA Merged Edition

[Slyfeind]

LIES!

[UnSub]

I can't get the damn camera to stay over the shoulder with mouselook options.  I stays facing the same direction regardless of character facing.  How is that like every other mmo?That and the old TR wonder of not being able to move forward with inventory open.  Wonderful.

I haven't had either of these problems. 

Neither have I. Plus I run around all the time with my inv window open.

There are a large number of different camera and targeting options. I'll have to go and see what mine is set at because camera control isn't an issue for me.

[Nebu]

For those of you in the US, Champions Online is the deal of the day at Amazon.com and is selling for $29.88.  It's $20 off if you were considering giving this title a try.

[Kageru]

Setting new records on how quickly the discounts start. At this rate should be free to play in another two months.

[Triforcer]

Jesus fucking christ, why does everything not WoW have to be the fail?  If Bioware lets me down, I'm just going to cry while playing a DK and cutting myself. 

[Lantyssa]

Not sucking would go a long ways towards not failing.  We have to start there.

[Cadaverine]

Check the Alganon thread, already in progress, for proof that it's not WoW in and of itself, so much as the timing, not sucking, polish, etc, that accounts for WoW being the success that it is.  The Blizzard name probably doesn't hurt either.

There's plenty of room for an MMO to be successful, without ever coming close to WoW numbers, but they can't even get out of the gate without falling flat on their face.  I suspect that worrying about whether they're copying WoW too much, or not enough, plays a part in that.  E.g. WAR, and Vanguard.

[UnSub]

ChampO will be successful if it has a touch over 100k subs according to Emmert. That's fairly possible to do, even with existing complaints about the game.

I don't think ChampO came out as Cryptic wanted it to, but it did help serve as an acid test of all systems prior to STO, including the new functions they've taken on like CS and servers. If / when more content is introduced and gameplay stability is improved (and maybe launches on the Xbox 360), I think it will probably find its feet. It's not ever going to be a huge market player, but it does offer a number of things you can't get elsewhere (which is why a lot of people say, "It's fun, but...").

Also, WoW launched in a perfect storm of conditions that helped make it the success it was. It was full of launch bugs, but a lot of factors (gameplay and the Blizzard name included) helped to hold onto players and grow.

[Kageh]

I just hope that STO is not going to be using the CO engine, at least not in the state it is currently. My summary on the CO engine includes - but is not limited to - poor scaling, abysmal performance, incredibly annoying input handling (keypresses register late, with weird random delays, sometimes not at all, and yes, I know it is not network based) and characters getting stuck at every straw of grass in the landscape, with very stylish frozen "mid-run animations" everywhere.

Which is a shame, because the combat system in itself is fun and has huge potential.

The main problem, if you compare this to WoW is that WoW has an engine which allows you to take a level 1 character and start whacking bunny wabbits in Elwynn Forest at level 1, and everything about how bunny whacking feels is right. Animations are fluid, controls are responsive, sound and visual feedback from the combat are satisfying and spot on. And WoW was polished like this from start, it was not "patched" to become polished.

[Khaldun]

I think when Emmert says 100k subs is a success, he means "we make enough money to keep going to our next marginal business success/creative failure". But as far as I can see, the farm is bet on Star Trek Online, since there isn't another product beyond that in their pipeline. I'd wager that the 100k figure is only a marginal business success for Champs if their projections on microtransaction revenue hold up, e.g., that they'll get a sizeable proportion of that small subscriber base to pay what's effectively a premium subscription rate. I think that will only work in turn if they can continue to find aspects of the game mechanics to monetize. They can't monetize an advantage in PvE because the game isn't tuned that way. They're going to run out of vanity items pretty quick, besides no one really likes the action figures anyway. So it's pretty much got to be costume pieces, custom animations/emotes, that kind of thing. That would probably be more alluring if the game had more of a "look at me" crowd scene like Atlas Park is in CoH.

[Bandit]

I just hope that STO is not going to be using the CO engine, at least not in the state it is currently. My summary on the CO engine includes - but is not limited to - poor scaling, abysmal performance, incredibly annoying input handling (keypresses register late, with weird random delays, sometimes not at all, and yes, I know it is not network based) and characters getting stuck at every straw of grass in the landscape, with very stylish frozen "mid-run animations" everywhere.

Which is a shame, because the combat system in itself is fun and has huge potential.

Very descriptive hyperbole.  Abysmal performance?  Are you playing on a Vic-20?  You could have described Lemuria on its own as abysmal, but the rest of the game runs pretty fluid to me - at max settings.  Poor scaling of what?  Stuck at every straw of grass? Not sure what your getting at, doesn't seem to be an issue or an issue I have seen complained about any where else.  You are bound to get stuck at walls and different landscape just due to the nature and speed of travel powers.  Super Leaping is going to smack you into building, and in tough holes, but this is similar to CoH.

The only thing I will concede is the input handling.  It is very inconsistent, and would not translate well into their expected port to a 360.  My perfectly timed heals and blocks, sometimes become ill-timed face-plants and resurrections.

[Khaldun]

The engine works pretty well, I think. It's not really one of the game's problems, except in Lemuria. There's a bit of input lag sometimes, but not much compared to some.

[Kageh]

Very descriptive hyperbole.  Abysmal performance?  Are you playing on a Vic-20?  You could have described Lemuria on its own as abysmal, but the rest of the game runs pretty fluid to me - at max settings.  Poor scaling of what?  Stuck at every straw of grass? Not sure what your getting at, doesn't seem to be an issue or an issue I have seen complained about any where else.  You are bound to get stuck at walls and different landscape just do to the nature and speed of travel powers.  Super Leaping is going to smack you into building, and in tough holes, but this is similar to CoH.

The only thing I will concede is the input handling.  It is very inconsistent, and would not translate well into their expected port to a 360.  My perfectly timed heals and blocks, sometimes become ill-timed face-plants and resurrections.

"Abysmal performance" means I'm running this on an i7 overclocked to 3.6Ghz and SLI with 2x GTX 260, at a resolution of 1680x1050 with Anti-Aliasing and high shadows, detail sliders around 150%. I get framerates in the mid-30s outdoors if I'm lucky, and the scenery isn't looking like anything that should remotely be taxing my system. Oh yes, I know, it is an MMO, wait, that means poop performance guaranteed because of some secret ingredient.

"Poor scaling" means that if I turn any slider somewhere above the 100% mark everything starts to take a turn for the really bad. If more than 5 people are on screen doing sparkly stuff, everything takes a nosedive, performance-wise. If I move from a region with few buildings/debris to one with many buildings/debris, I win about 10-15 secons of slideshows and stutters.

"The most fucked up movement handling engine" aka "I get stuck on every pimple on an otherwise perfectly flat surface" is something that has been around since CoX and it is a particular irk of said engine. You move around at superspeed, and all of a sudden you are stuck gliding laterally, frozen in your animation frame because you encountered the infamous boardwalk, dastardly blocking your way. Or you zip around acrobatically dodging and doing backflips and then there's a corner of something in your jump path and your character starts hovering mid-air looking like he has been hit by a paralyzing ray of Dr. Doombots.

Did I forget anything? Not sure and I don't really care at this point. I've been beta testing CO since April 2009 and I have been repeatedly complaining about the same issues I listed above on the boards, just to have the fanbois swarm me with extremely constructive questions a la "Do you run this on a VIC-20 *cue laughter here* heh heh heh". There have  been performance threads going for 10-15 pages of length at the end of the beta, of course I'm sure everything is perfectly fine because you happen to have no problems (that you are aware of). Oh, and I've also played CoX for about 3 years on and off so I'm well aware of CoX shortcomings.

The technical quality of this engine is "crap level". While we can argue about "art direction" and "cel shading" and what not, the redeeming technical qualities are just not there. The ambitious CO does not deliver in the tech department, which is even more puzzling as CO is in some ways so like CoX that they should have been able to improve the inherent flaws of CoX in more ways than just adding more shiney. As it is now, it is - like noted - an ambitious but incompetent piece of technology showcase.

Oh, and I call bullshit alert on your "max settings fluid gaming". I claim that SSAO+Antialiasing+Shadows+every slider at 250% (which probably is close to "max settings") doesn't run "fluid" on anything else than some very high-end gaming hardware. Unless you define "fluid" as somewhere around 25 FPS.

EDIT: In fairness, my impressions are end of beta and the first couple weeks after launch. I stopped afterwards. Maybe they fixed performance, I don't know.

[Malakili]

EDIT: In fairness, my impressions are end of beta and the first couple weeks after launch. I stopped afterwards. Maybe they fixed performance, I don't know.

They did, a lot.  During Beta I had to turn things way down and sometimes still geting crap framerates.  I am currently running most of the settings on full, and only get slow down when there are a ton of particle effects on the screen at the same time.  They've done quite a lot of optimization since launch from my personal experience.

This Blood Moon patch has kept me going if for no other reason that I have a fun sorcery/celestial hybrid character planned.  They need to be pumping out some legitimate content soon though.

[Morfiend]

I was running the game on close to max settings with a 3 year old PC, and running at 1900x1200 res and getting around 30 to 45fps in congested areas.

[Bandit]

Did I forget anything? Not sure and I don't really care at this point. I've been beta testing CO since April 2009 and I have been repeatedly complaining about the same issues I listed above on the boards, just to have the fanbois swarm me with extremely constructive questions a la "Do you run this on a VIC-20 *cue laughter here* heh heh heh". There have  been performance threads going for 10-15 pages of length at the end of the beta, of course I'm sure everything is perfectly fine because you happen to have no problems (that you are aware of). Oh, and I've also played CoX for about 3 years on and off so I'm well aware of CoX shortcomings.

Not sure what to say mate, but you sound like a complete douche.  Get over the Vic-20 joke, I am sorry your super-machine feels insulted *cue laughter here*.  The internet is serious business. If you are insinuating that I am a fanboi (which is hard to tell), then your completely wrong.  I am pretty positive, especially from F13 point of view, on most of my gaming.  I enjoy CO for the gameplay and the character creation.  I do not try to talk around legitimate complaints, of which there are many.  CO is underwhelming right now, that is plainly obvious. It is not CoH 2.0, it is not WOW,  and development has been a clusterfuck and comedy of errors.

Oh, and I call bullshit alert on your "max settings fluid gaming". I claim that SSAO+Antialiasing+Shadows+every slider at 250% (which probably is close to "max settings") doesn't run "fluid" on anything else than some very high-end gaming hardware. Unless you define "fluid" as somewhere around 25 FPS.

Awww shit, I have been busted! Your right, not all my sliders are not at 250%. I believe I am running at max for the default settings without going into the advanced settings.  Looks good to me, on par with other comparable games, and runs fine.  Sure there is room for improvement. What else can I say to that?

[Kageh]

Not sure what to say mate, but you sound like a complete douche.  Get over the Vic-20 joke, I am sorry your super-machine feels insulted *cue laughter here*.  The internet is serious business. If you are insinuating that I am a fanboi (which is hard to tell), then your completely wrong.  I am pretty positive, especially from F13 point of view, on most of my gaming.  I enjoy CO for the gameplay and the character creation.  I do not try to talk around legitimate complaints, of which there are many.  CO is underwhelming right now, that is plainly obvious. It is not CoH 2.0, it is not WOW,  and development has been a clusterfuck and comedy of errors.

I don't know you, and I don't know why I should sound like a douche to you.  My super machine does not feel insulted, and among us, given that the internet is serious business, I'm not sure it loves me anymore, as today I have admitted its inferiority to you. I'll give it a hug when I'm done defending its honor against a random on the net though, just to be sure. I'm sure your VIC-20 joke (argument?) was well-natured and utterly positive, internet constructivism at it's best. Maybe it wouldn't have annoyed me as much as it has, had I not been hearing the same argument for so long on so various games, and in particular on my 6 months of CO playtime. Yet, it was nothing but a dumb comment.

For what it is worth, I did enjoy CO for exactly your reasons for about all the beta time, but sadly the game moved nearly zero forward since I first played. I owed them a box sale for a good beta time and I was out.

Either way, I'm not interested arguing with you, I was responding to your original criticism. Enjoy your game, I'm happy for you.

[UnSub]

I just hope that STO is not going to be using the CO engine

All Cryptic games are developed using the in-house Cryptic Engine.

Ironically, I had great performance during beta - never crashed, frame rates were good even on high settings - but whatever the patched in at launch sees me crash every 30 minutes or less, sometimes even to a BSOD. Nvidia graphics driver issue, apparently. Still annoying.

It might have been fixed during the Blood Moon patch, but I didn't bother to log in.

[Malakili]

I just hope that STO is not going to be using the CO engine

All Cryptic games are developed using the in-house Cryptic Engine.

The screenshots they've released for STO have a very similar look to Champions too. 

Images below:

[Slyfeind]

Heh, holy crap. I hadn't seen those before, let alone the comparisson. Honestly I like the game engine. They just need to do more with it.

[Goreschach]

Damned if that game doesn't look like a fan mod.

[Typhon]

In the series/movies I cannot recall any humanoid taking a direct phaser hit and keep moving.  I guess the borg, but they had personal shields.  For whoever actually plays this game it's got to seem really weird that you need to hit someone more than once with a phaser.

[Khaldun]

Ensigns get the phasers that are intended to stun 10 rats.

[UnSub]

In the series/movies I cannot recall any humanoid taking a direct phaser hit and keep moving.  I guess the borg, but they had personal shields.  For whoever actually plays this game it's got to seem really weird that you need to hit someone more than once with a phaser.

Same for any title where there are weapons and hit points though.

[Tannhauser]

I guess Starfleet Academy never had a course on taking cover.

[Kageh]

I guess Starfleet Academy never had a course on taking cover.

It was there though, right after the engineering class on seatbelt usage.

[raydeen]

I guess Starfleet Academy never had a course on taking cover.

They had it but only but you couldn't take it if your shirt was red.

[Kageru]

Anyone still playing? Interested in whether the population has dived as fast as I expected.

[UnSub]

I would still be playing, except for some sort of crippling graphics bug that occurs because the Cryptic Engine ChampO doesn't like either Nvidia or ATI cards.

Last time I was in there were still a few hundred players in the lower zones. Player population is (of course) down on launch.

[Malakili]

Anyone still playing? Interested in whether the population has dived as fast as I expected.

Its down pretty far, but I haven't played it during " prime time" in a while, so numbers aren't quite accurate.  Still, I'd say there aren't more than a couple thousand people on the server at a time.

Either way they are almost certainly far below their "100,000 would be considered a success" range that they mentioned at some point.


Also, yeah, I'm still playing it, I like the character creator and the combat mechanics enough that is tickles my fancy when I'm in the mood for some mindless beat em up action. What can I say, its just about everything I say I hate in a MMO, but for some reason I'm having fun, who knew?

[Malakili]

For clarification, I'd say just by eyeballing the number of instances of the major zones that are up at any given time the player base is down to about 20% of what it was.

[Ingmar]

There's a free play event going on this weekend, apparently, starting on Thanksgiving, and some Black Friday deals in the RMT store.

[Malakili]

There's a free play event going on this weekend, apparently, starting on Thanksgiving, and some Black Friday deals in the RMT store.

I'd suggest people who haven't played give it the free weekend if you'll actually have time to play it, playing with the character creator is worth the time it takes to download the client, if nothing else.

[Bandit]

Still playing....albeit in-between my Dragon Age obsession.

Content is slowly being added, although a bunch of it is repeatable kill x quests with a few mission arcs here and there.  "Nemesis Confrontation Lair" patch is just hitting live servers which provides multiple 5-man nemesis level 40 content.  They have thrown in some new costume options (glow effect) and perks with the new content.I haven't tried the lair yet but hopefully this weekend I will make a run.

Cryptic has been pretty much patching weekly, mostly bug squashing with functionality fixes (UI, teaming options, mission sharing, etc.).

They are going through powersets one-by-one, with Archery getting an overhaul in the last patch.  They do now have the ability to individually retcon for individual abilities.  Sorcery is up next by the look of it.

[waylander]

I think it boils down to the fact that there is only so much room for a super hero MMO, and CoV/CoH is it until DCU comes out.  We beta tested CO using our squad from CoV/CoH, and at the end of the day the verdict was that it would be better to start up again in the old game than go to a new one that was basically an inferior clone.

I don't know much about DCU, but if it offers better game play and more diversity in the game then it might do ok.