Champions Online: The No-NDA Merged Edition

[Nebu]

Does anyone think this would increase the likelihood of character variety? Or would people just complain anyway?

People want to pwn with impunity.  Anything that allows them to die 50% of the time will result in immediate complaints.  While people clammor for balanced gameplay, very few really want it.  This is evident in games with class disparity.  You'll always see more people playing the classes perceived as being overpowered. 

[cmlancas]

I personally don't think that a character should be punished for developing the ability to pwn with impunity. Shit, if you invest 600 hours in a character, he/she better be at least marginally better than Random_Player_01 who only has 30 hours. It's called retention, damnit.

That being said, there's no reason why Player_02_600_Hours_Played should be necessarily "broken." I agree with sublevels and the AA system. I'm fine with giving a player +10hp every time he levels up after he has 10khp.

Then again, I think we've made too many mistakes since we've gone away from MUDs. I still think there should be tiers divided by sublevels so everyone can play together without this shit business of grinding up characters. (Every time I make this argument I think of DotA and how much fun it is/was.)

[Nebu]

I personally don't think that a character should be punished for developing the ability to pwn with impunity. Shit, if you invest 600 hours in a character, he/she better be at least marginally better than Random_Player_01 who only has 30 hours. It's called retention, damnit.

Marginally better.  That's fine with me.  Sadly, it's not the case in the more popular MMO's.  Time = power being the current paradigm that has turned the MMO genre into the shitty catass grindfest we all know it to be. 

[Valmorian]

If this game has the Champions IP but doesn't use any part of the Hero System, then I'm considerably less interested.  Champions has always been about the system and never really about the IP.

[HaemishM]

# The game has classes, but every class has access to every power. Class defines how many points each power costs for your character.

WHY???

FFS, QFT.

Seriously, if you can buy any power, just make it a goddamn skill system. Do something fucking different. This is World of Heroes, i.e. City of Heroes the Sequel. They just didn't want to call it a sequel and couldn't because they sold the IP to NCSoft.

All the power customization will mean fuckall if they don't remove the problems COH/V had in the first place, i.e. the only thing to do was fun but got entirely too repetitive and required too much time to level up. If they don't fix THAT issue, it doesn't matter what kind of character system they create.

[Ingmar]

What do Cryptic care if they eat into CoH/V's population? They sold that IP to NCsoft. If the talk about the MMO dev watercooler is true, WoW brought a lot of new players into the MMO genre, some of whom will at least check out what a new MMO has to offer. So, weak IP or not, I think ChampO has a better shot at a bigger audience than CoH had on launch.

Two quotes in a row. I need to get to work. 

This has been my "big" question. No doubt the MMOG players will be inclined to check out a new MMORPG, but will the bulk of WoW players give a shit, if it isn't WoW?

Not if Statesman put's in his usual grind.

Can you really call it his "usual" grind if he's only done it once? Was he ever even involved with an MMO before CoX?

[Arrrgh]

What do Cryptic care if they eat into CoH/V's population? They sold that IP to NCsoft. If the talk about the MMO dev watercooler is true, WoW brought a lot of new players into the MMO genre, some of whom will at least check out what a new MMO has to offer. So, weak IP or not, I think ChampO has a better shot at a bigger audience than CoH had on launch.

Two quotes in a row. I need to get to work. 

This has been my "big" question. No doubt the MMOG players will be inclined to check out a new MMORPG, but will the bulk of WoW players give a shit, if it isn't WoW?

Not if Statesman put's in his usual grind.

Can you really call it his "usual" grind if he's only done it once? Was he ever even involved with an MMO before CoX?

There were also the frequent and excessive nerfs. Since you're going down the "but he only made one mistake in one MMO!" road.

[Ingmar]

What do Cryptic care if they eat into CoH/V's population? They sold that IP to NCsoft. If the talk about the MMO dev watercooler is true, WoW brought a lot of new players into the MMO genre, some of whom will at least check out what a new MMO has to offer. So, weak IP or not, I think ChampO has a better shot at a bigger audience than CoH had on launch.

Two quotes in a row. I need to get to work. 

This has been my "big" question. No doubt the MMOG players will be inclined to check out a new MMORPG, but will the bulk of WoW players give a shit, if it isn't WoW?

Not if Statesman put's in his usual grind.

Can you really call it his "usual" grind if he's only done it once? Was he ever even involved with an MMO before CoX?

There were also the frequent and excessive nerfs. Since you're going down the "but he only made one mistake in one MMO!" road.

That's actually not what I said at all, but OK. Alleged nerf mistakes and the grind mistake are not related in any particular way.

[Nevermore]

What do Cryptic care if they eat into CoH/V's population? They sold that IP to NCsoft. If the talk about the MMO dev watercooler is true, WoW brought a lot of new players into the MMO genre, some of whom will at least check out what a new MMO has to offer. So, weak IP or not, I think ChampO has a better shot at a bigger audience than CoH had on launch.

Two quotes in a row. I need to get to work. 

This has been my "big" question. No doubt the MMOG players will be inclined to check out a new MMORPG, but will the bulk of WoW players give a shit, if it isn't WoW?

Not if Statesman put's in his usual grind.

Can you really call it his "usual" grind if he's only done it once? Was he ever even involved with an MMO before CoX?

There were also the frequent and excessive nerfs. Since you're going down the "but he only made one mistake in one MMO!" road.

It could be argued that it was poor initial design that was the mistake, not the generally necessary nerfs.

[stray]

I think by usual, it's meant that Statesman doesn't know how to leave things alone. Whenever he talked, it'd always be about balance. Seemed obsessive about it. And he has a habit of chipping away rather than building upon things.

[Mrbloodworth]

"Nerfs" Equating to "Mistakes" is a very subjective thing. Players my not like them sometimes, but many times, its the best thing for the Game/Project.

[stray]

Players are the game.

[Mrbloodworth]

Players are the game.

Changes are necessary.

[stray]

Fair enough. But when a "superhero game" changes into "not really a superhero game", it's a detrimental change.

[edit] Yes, I'm still bitter.

[Mrbloodworth]

Fair enough. But when a "superhero game" changes into "not really a superhero game", it's a detrimental change.

[edit] Yes, I'm still bitter.

My comment wasn't really trying to apply to any one instance. That would create endless debates for years to come.

But, with out tying it to any one instance, "Nerfs and buffs" are necessary things, and are not bad things.

The only exception to that, IMO, was the NGE. That was just a mistake in every way, (lol)  But also a completely different magnitude of "Change".

[Phred]

"Nerfs" Equating to "Mistakes" is a very subjective thing. Players my not like them sometimes, but many times, its the best thing for the Game/Project.

In the case of CoH I'd argue we've had enough time to determine that many of the nerfs were mistakes. You can be as fair and open minded as you like but I am certainly not playing another game Statesman has charge of unless the word of mouth is overwhelmingly good on it and even then I'll give it a year to see how badly it gets nerfed first.

[Typhon]

The combat special effects system is borked beyond belief.  That they never learned the concept of diminisioning returns (e.g. you can stun/be stunned permanently) is just fucked up.  I hope he gets it right this time around.  I also hope that he makes knock down a fun mechanism this time around, rather then a way to annoy melee fighters (hint: giving melee fighters a quick way to close the distance to a nearby target makes knockback less annoying, using knock back to juggle enemies is an interesting way to fight multiple opentents at the same time).  I also hope that he does something creative with AOE and fighting multiple enemies at the same time that does not including the number of enemies that can be effected at the same time.

I'm just full of hope!  Storm-calling damage dealer here I come!  I believe!

2009?  Hmph, fucking vaporware!

[Chenghiz]

I want an MMO that's an exact replica of the Hero System. That would be the most hilariously broken game in existence.

[Montague]

I want an MMO that's an exact replica of the Hero System. That would be the most hilariously broken game in existence.

Of course it wouldn't. It would be the greatest game ever because there would be no classes.

[UnSub]

I want an MMO that's an exact replica of the Hero System. That would be the most hilariously broken game in existence.

Of course it wouldn't. It would be the greatest game ever because there would be no classes.

Also, players would balance themselves in order to best meet their character RP concept.

[Trippy]

It could be argued that it was poor initial design that was the mistake, not the generally necessary nerfs.

Not having an aggro cap was a design mistake. ED, among other things, was a global nerf, pure and simple, because people were killing too many enemies per unit time -- i.e. they were having too much fun. And no, the IO system (which came well after) does not make up for ED unless you happen to have a billion or so influence/infamy lying around (the amount needed to perma things that were perma-able before ED).

[Trippy]

I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for now.

Should a character with long range energy blasting powers be able to buy high defenses at the same cost  and same extent as a melee character? I would say not. A Champions GM would nix that, I don't see why the MMO should be any different.

Huh? Why would a blaster want high defenses? The reason glass cannons might exist in a game is natural: they fight from far away so they put points into offense.

There is no need to enforce it if you design the game right. it's a natural outgrowth of the rules. But besides, why would a GM nix defense on a blaster? I thought the whole point is that you can choose powers freely. Superman has laser vision and he's practically invincible; same with Silver Surfur.

Now I'm even more confused about what the point is. It's a flexible system that lets you choose powers except GMs won't let you actually do that and neither will Cryptic? Well then...

A GM wouldn't nix defense on a blaster unless of course the blaster was piling on the attacks and/or STR and was piling on the disadvantages to make a true tank-mage -- i.e. Superman. Under the Champions/Hero System points system for a "normal" Hero (i.e. not a total munchkin) if you go for high defense you would have to give up something. In the case of the blaster that would probably mean your blast attacks are weaker.

The easy way to balance ranged attacks with melee attacks in a game like CoH with no character stats like STR, DEX, etc. is to make ranged attacks cost more per unit damage. By attacking at range you gain all sorts of advantages such as being out of range of PBAoE attacks so the ranged attacks should cost more. So a melee attacker with the same DPS as a ranged attacker would have more points left over for defenses or HP boosts or whatever.

As for having "classes" (i.e. archetypes) with power discounts I don't have a problem with that in general. The problem with *not* having some sort of "bundle" discount system is that people gravitate towards "generalist" templates where nobody specializes or is particular good at any one thing and the game become City of Soloing Generalists, which is fine if it's a single-player game, not so good if it's an MMORPG. Cryptic already "messed up", in some ways, the design of CoV where they made all the archetype solo-friendly (though obviously a lot of people like it that way). As a consequence grouping is much less common Villain-side than it is Hero-side.

Not having classes also can make forming groups incredibly time-consuming since you have to go through everybody's powers and figure out what you may need. That's assuming people actually do group regularly in a classless system.

[UnSub]

It seems likely that the official Champions Online site will be http://www.champions-online.com, registered on December 19 2007.

The first major materials should be released tomorrow.

[UnSub]

Not having classes also can make forming groups incredibly time-consuming since you have to go through everybody's powers and figure out what you may need. That's assuming people actually do group regularly in a classless system.

Of course, the AT system in CoH/V still suffers from the problem of Defenders being widely regarded as Healers, yet not all Defender sets having healing powers. I'm sure that an even less class orientated system is going to confuse people even more.

Not having an aggro cap was a design mistake. ED, among other things, was a global nerf, pure and simple, because some ATs like Tankers were killing too many enemies per unit time -- i.e. they only needed team mates to stand around while they trained and fought the entire map themselves.

FIFY.

ED / GDN was caused by initial design mistakes, but it was necessary to reduce the gap between the top and bottom percentiles of AT power.

[Trippy]

The herding nerfs were separate from ED. ED was because Statesman was unhappy people were taking on more than 3 minion-equivalents at one time.

Edit: to put it another way, ED nerfed *everybody*, not just Tankers.

[Velorath]

It seems likely that the official Champions Online site will be http://www.champions-online.com, registered on December 19 2007.

The first major materials should be released tomorrow.

They're up right now, including a number of screenshots.

Edit:  It's got sort of a cel-shaded look which I like, but the character designs themselves seem a bit awkward.

[Velorath]

Eh, I can't imagine that it's any worse than people at Bungie having to work on three Halo games in a row, and at least Crytic is sticking with a niche nobody else is really doing (we've just seen more screenshots of Champions Online than we have of DC Online).  Would you rather be working on a dev team's second Superhero MMO, or random dev team's Yet Another Fantasy MMO?

[Velorath]

Maybe you missed the part where I said that they are direct competition with their own game.

I'm not sure why that would make it a better or worse place to work at or how it's really much different at the end of the day.  If you're working on a sequel (or spiritual successor to a game or whatever) I imagine you'd generally want to it be a decent improvment over the previous one.  I would think the same goes for the team here.  That it's going to be direct competition to a game they no longer own, that will be at least five years old and showing its age by the time Champions comes out, shouldn't be all that discouraging to the team.

[Velorath]

Statesman being at the helm is probably the biggest reservation I have about this game (although there are several other potential issues as well).  Regardless, given a choice between Cryptic doing an incremental improvement on CoH, or moving on to something else and leaving CoH as likely the only Superhero MMO to ever see release (as you can seem I'm pretty sceptical that the DC game will ever make it past the vaporware stage), I'd rather go with the incremental improvement.

I don't really get the Okami comparison as far as cel-shading goes.  It's a completely different art style.  My biggest problem with the screenshots right now, is every single background looks like a rehash of CoH.  We have the cave background, the lab background, the warehouse background, the industrial background..., fuck, mix it up a little bit here guys.

[Velorath]

I'd almost perfer it if they reskinned the character models.  I'm so sick of seeing those backgrounds though after seeing them probably over a hundred times each in the short amount of time I played.

[Velorath]

Their first article on combat:

Up until now, the combat mechanics of one MMO has been a lot like the next. A player selects a target, triggers an attack and either uses another attack or waits for the first one to recharge. In some cases, the game even provides players with an auto attack feature so that they don’t need to keep mashing the same attack key again and again. Auto-attack is so common that players have even come up with a nickname for this gameplay: click "A" and pray. Yawn.

This all changes with the debut of Champions Online! Players instantly leap into action as soon as they hit a button. Once an animation completes, the player can attack again. There are no lengthy recharge times, and no boring auto attack. Instead, Champions Online has the fast-paced gameplay normally found only in fighting or action games. Years of work on the Cryptic Engine has allowed us to create combat unlike any other MMORPG on the market.

Combat in Champions Online is breathless and action packed, but it's much more than mindless button mashing. Every encounter also requires strategy. Champions Online delivers villains with unique abilities that players must take into account. Each battle requires the player to utilize his or her powers to the fullest in order to triumph. Players need to stay sharp, to use the environment, and to plan thoroughly before they leap into action. But even the best plan can go awry when face to face with the enemy, so players must be prepared to improvise.

Players square off not only against hordes of henchmen and their leaders, but also countless costumed villains drawn from the rich lore of Champions. Doctor Destroyer. Grond. Foxbat. Menton. Anklysaur. Mechanon. Firewing. And many, many more.

Some battles will be more difficult than others, and many will test even the most battle-hardened heroes. And sometimes, it will help to have a superteam of friends to back you up when the going gets tough!

In Champions Online, the epic fights between heroes and villains are unforgettable from one adventure to the next. Every battle will be different, but they will all have one thing in common: the stakes are high, the action electrifying, and the pace exhilarating!

That's a whole lotta words to not say much of anything.

[Phred]

Doesn't matter. The boredom must be setting in on a portion of the team.

At least Cryptic sold off their other game before they had to directly compete with it. Heh.

[UnSub]

The Cryptic team working on this only has a few members who worked on CoH/V - most of the people on that went to NC^2. It'll be the case of competing on their former product for very few of them.

Having had a close look at the screenshots, they're nice and all, but the cel shading leaves it looking flat. I'll have to see what it looks like in motion.

This bit interests me:

This all changes with the debut of Champions Online! Players instantly leap into action as soon as they hit a button. Once an animation completes, the player can attack again. There are no lengthy recharge times, and no boring auto attack. Instead, Champions Online has the fast-paced gameplay normally found only in fighting or action games. Years of work on the Cryptic Engine has allowed us to create combat unlike any other MMORPG on the market.

I've often thought that a Dynasty Warriors-esque battle system would be fun in a MMO. We'll see, of course.

[Sunbury]

No mention if you can queue up attacks ahead of time, or if some attacks can only be used as counters to opponents attacks.

[Nevermore]

Anklysaur.

Beware Anklysaur, destroyer of ankles!

First impression after looking at the site:  Total customization is the reason I remain curious about the game.  The blurb on attacking is too vague to form an opinion yet beyond that it sounds very console-ish.  I don't like the cell shading effect they're using based on those screenshots, but seeing it in motion might change my mind (the old Fear Effect looked like ass in screenshots but wasn't too bad in motion).