NCsoft aquires 'City of' franchise from Cryptic

[geldonyetich2]

Alas, the next generation is picking up on Geldonyetich 1.0's wicked ways, and now I'm enduring the consequences.  So much conviction, so little objectivity.

[Rendakor]

I agree with jdun about City's lack of content. (Also, english motherfucker, do you speak it? If you're ESL, disregard that)

They've got half-assed crafting and PVP, and like, one raid... They need to be like all the other DIKUs and put out an expansion. Level cap up to 60, 10th primary available at 53, secondary at 56, add a fifth power to all the pools and release one new tileset. Hazard zones for villians too please, and ZOMG FFA PVP* AND PERMADEATH!!1!shiftone

*Seriously, a PVP server: connect some of the zones, take police drones away from zonelines, and launch. People would play there, if only because all the names would be free.

[Valmorian]

*Seriously, a PVP server: connect some of the zones, take police drones away from zonelines, and launch. People would play there, if only because all the names would be free.

I have no idea why they don't do this, especially since they can even use the Giant Monster code to reduce overzealous gankers.

[geldonyetich2]

Probably because their whiny, mostly PvE playerbase, would scream their heads off about this even though it has nothing to do with them.

 

[Valmorian]

Probably because their whiny, mostly PvE playerbase, would scream their heads off about this even though it has nothing to do with them.

 

That didn't stop them from adding what, 4 or so, PvP zones and spending a fair bit of time on the PvP game (not that it's particularly good, but it is there, and the PvP zones have a significant amount of work that was devoted to them)..

[Rendakor]

Yea, if there weren't PVP zones I wouldnt suggest it at all but...when Villians came out I always figured they'd put in a PVP server, but since 99% of the players are carebears it was barely mentioned on the beta boards.

[UnSub]

CoH/V doesn't need a PvP server. It could certainly do with more PvP options, like PvP-orientated missions. It's been questioned for a while (occasionally) why they can't set up 'villains rob the bank / heroes protect the bank' style missions.

However, base raiding has never been popular (no real reason to since IoPs were only briefly in the game) and PvP zones have their devotees, but it's hard to be a casual PvPer given how far out of whack some ATs are in power levels.

[Llava]

What is there to CoH? Nothing other then fight and fight. That's it. When I left that's all we had. That's why people herd because it was fun and have a change of pace. When they nerfed all the character classes, most people start leaving for WoW. I'm sure you weren't at the being of the game. When CoH started you have to wait in line to just get a train ride to the other zone. When I left the even the most popular zone was empty. Only SWG made bigger mistakes then CoH.

Actually I started playing the first day of release, though I hadn't pre-ordered so I wasn't there for the head start.

And the reason the zones freed up wasn't because of fewer people- they increased the power of the servers so that what was once "heavy population" for an area wasn't anymore.

Herding was the most repetitive, boring type of PvE the game had.  Yeah, it was fun for about 2 days.  Very rapidly, however, it killed any variety in the PvE offered in CoH.  Any.  They were right to get rid of it.  Doing so allowed them to introduce variant strategies to PvE encounters.

I will grant that they did little to think outside the box on this, and WoW's PvE is definitely superior within instances (particularly BC instances) in terms of strategic difficulty, but herding was the ultimate in mindless PvE.  Every single mission was to be handled the same way- that is, of course, assuming you could find a group interested in doing any instance other than Shadowhunter.

People weren't herding because it was "fun and have a change of pace".  They were herding because it was the fastest, easiest way to level.  Doing it any other way was just hilariously inefficient by comparison.

Cryptic should have taken the hint from that and, as they removed herding, cut the grind by a decent margin.


PvP is just too unbalanced to be fun.  It had to be added with CoV, and CoV was the next logical step, but no one at Cryptic would argue that the game was initially designed with PvP in mind.  It was added by popular demand, at the request of the players.  I can't even imagine how to really make it work in that game, and believe me when I say that I used to play this game a lot and spent enough time in Siren's Call and, later, Recluse's Victory to be known by name by the majority of the regulars.

Fact is, travel powers alone impact the PvP game so much that I can't imagine a way to fix them that's fun (suppression sucks) and offers balance between them.  There should be a strategic advantage to each power, but really no matter what you are Super Leaping is the best option- it has the fewest counters and provides the greatest mobility/speed combo. The only potential argument is for a Stalker's Assassin Strike, but even then the only argument is that you can't use it mid-air, which you could only do with flight, which has a ridiculous number of counters and is the slowest option.

And that's just travel powers.  Nevermind Stalkers, Teleport Foe griefing, Bodyguard (still positive that my Mastermind could solo anything except a Storm Defender/Controller), and the numerous essentially useless PvP ATs.

But the point is this-  I know this game better than you do.  Herding was bad.  If they didn't fix it, you would've quit in another couple weeks over something else, and they would have lost my subscription as well.  Fact is, CoH just wasn't a deep enough game for most people in the long term.  Herding only served to shallow the experience of the one the thing game did offer- PvE.

[geldonyetich2]

However, base raiding has never been popular (no real reason to since IoPs were only briefly in the game) and PvP zones have their devotees, but it's hard to be a casual PvPer given how far out of whack some ATs are in power levels.

PvP is just too unbalanced to be fun..

Thirded.  When it comes to PvP in City of Heroes, it's not a matter of where it's happening so much as how unbalanced it is.  The main trouble is just that all heroes/villains are not created equal.  First, many are built to contribute to a PvE team.  Second, the choices a player has in selecting powers and slotting them makes a noticeable impact on the overall power of the character.

The Zone control model of PvP that City of Heroes uses is (in my opinion) the best compromise the MMORPG-world has come up with so far.   As a PvE player, if you don't want to get involved in PvP, you just don't go to the PvP zones.  Even PvP players can appreciate having somewhere to relax between tussles.  The model does still leave the usual population imbalance problem, though.

Regarding Herding vrs Gameplay now, I was probably wrong to say that the herding nerf actually reduced the challenge of the game.  On the contrary, being unable to reliably provoke more than 12 targets makes things considerably more challenging.  Getting the players to play the game as it was meant to be played (fighting only a few groups at a time) has not prevented them from learning how to take down groups rapidly, one after another, without resting.  So the fun is still there (at least what fun there is in a game with a somewhat overlong grind).

[Alkiera]

I'm apparently the only person (here) who doesn't think the grind is/was too long.

My primary issue with CoX is mission similarity, and a difficulty with selecting while kinds of missions I get.  The Radio fixed the latter, to a certain extent.  If I get a mission string of some monster type I suck vs, (like an all-lethal char vs. robots)  I can skip it and do other missions instead.  There's no 'run out of contacts, need to street sweep' thing after you get the radio at lvl 5, either.

The game does have some slow periods.  And exp definitely slows down post-35, which unfortunately co-relates to the level at which you start getting new powers more slowly.  However, typically by that level you have a set of powers that works.  There are relatively few builds that absolutely rely on the later powers in a secondary, or on Epic powers.  There seems less push to play through the later levels because there are so few powers left; but this ignores the power brought on by extra slots.  Levels 41-50 only add 4 new powers, at 41, 44, 47, and 49; but you get 18 additional slots, which is enough to seriously upgrade some powers.  The sad faces brought on by ED return to happiness with the IOs and sets.  Sure, I only have +95% dmg now, instead of +166%, but I also have +90% ACC, +75% end reduction, and +85% recharge time.  You can actually kill stuff faster due to having powers up more often, and having enough endurance more often, even though a power now does less damage.

I'm playing though with a pair of kheldians now, they are 13 and 10.  It's been interesting seeing new content added to the low levels since I last played.  Faultline, for example.

Alkiera

[Typhon]

[...]My primary issue with CoX is mission similarity, [...]

[...]And exp definitely slows down post-35, which unfortunately co-relates to the level at which you start getting new powers more slowly.
[...]There seems less push to play through the later levels because there are so few powers left; but this ignores the power brought on by extra slots.
[...]Levels 41-50 only add 4 new powers, at 41, 44, 47, and 49; but you get 18 additional slots, which is enough to seriously upgrade some powers

This is what I would call grind (yes, I did take many of your statements out of context, but I think you get the point - for the people who are calling this "grindy", those were some of the points that we just couldn't get past).

Said another way:  The first five levels, the player learns the game and how to use his abilities in a variety of situations.   With every significant new power he gains after that, it only takes about 10-15 missions before he is about as good with the new abilities as he is going to get.  All he has left at this point is different mobs to fight against, and waiting for the next new ability that requires some adjustment to the way he plays.  The news-papers derail this a bit because most players will choose to play against mobs that they know they can handle.  An unofrtunate feedback enforcement of this trend is that rapidly mobs doing new things == BAD!, in the form of perma-stun, perma-sleep, perma-hold.  So, if you are having problems with a particular type of mob now, in ten levels you'll REALLY have problems.

Further compounding this artificial narrowing of content is that there was no incentive to fight mobs that you have difficulty with (when I left the game, not sure if it's changed).

I really, really liked this game.  It really, really frustated me that I couldn't keep the magic alive.  If they could just figure out how to add more reasons to do things.

[geldonyetich2]

I really, really liked this game.  It really, really frustated me that I couldn't keep the magic alive.  If they could just figure out how to add more reasons to do things.

Issue 9 did help a bit there, by adding something resembling real loot in the salvage drops and recipes needed to craft invention enhancements or that will sell for (sometimes ludicrous amounts of) influence/infamy.

The trouble with the grind in City of Heroes/Villains is mostly a matter of pacing.  By the time one reaches 32-35, they should have enough powers in their hotbar tray to have a pretty entertaining experience.  However, from 14-32, one is basically playing an incomplete character.  It's often boring enough that rather than stick with it one will just roll an alt.

In my 880+ hours of logged XFire time in the game, I only brought a single character to 50, and the last 15 levels or so was done on a Double Experience Weekend.  All the other time, I was rolling alts.  I must have rolled over 50.

[Typhon]

I played at the beginning of issue 9, I found the whole system very underwhelming.  I'm pretty sure that it wasn't entirely due to me already being burnt toast on the game.  The new stuff, where it seems like you can get different weapon graphics seems more interesting, in comparison.

[Phred]

I went back after issue 9. Finally got my main char to 50 and it was horrifically painful. Not only that the letdown  when you go, ok, I'm 50, now what, was pretty bleak.

And just like herding, the radio/newspaper missions appear to be a mixed blessing. Why wander 4 zones across the map when you can pop open the radio and have basically the same mission right in the zone you are in? If it wasn't for the complete boredom with the same 4 tilesets there'd be no reason to ever leave.  And I quickly found myself skipping groups like the Carnies due to their holds and the huge nerf to my resistance to holds.. In their wisdom, they changed the hold resistance in the regen line to yet another health regen.

I dont think I'd play another Cryptic game ever actually.

[eldaec]

In their wisdom, they changed the hold resistance in the regen line to yet another health regen.

Eh? Integration still gives you Hold protection (20 mag or somesuch).

And it was always a health regen power, they just increased health regen on Integration to compensate for Instant Healing becoming a clicky.

[Jimbo]

In their wisdom, they changed the hold resistance in the regen line to yet another health regen.

Eh? Integration still gives you Hold protection (20 mag or somesuch).

And it was always a health regen power, they just increased health regen on Integration to compensate for Instant Healing becoming a clicky.

I agree with Eldaec, Integration is a lot better than it was before.  Plus by level 28 you could have Integration, Resilience, and Acrobatics.  I almost never get locked down.  Of course I'm a spines/regen and I'm still having fun leveling, grouping, mission completing, and getting costume parts, but if I was on a low number server I don't think I would like it.

I don't want 40 hero/villian vs one epic critter (well maybe a few) but most comic stuff is about the one hero or small team vs the big bad bunchies that are trying to take over the world!

[Phred]

In their wisdom, they changed the hold resistance in the regen line to yet another health regen.

Eh? Integration still gives you Hold protection (20 mag or somesuch).

And it was always a health regen power, they just increased health regen on Integration to compensate for Instant Healing becoming a clicky.

I agree with Eldaec, Integration is a lot better than it was before.  Plus by level 28 you could have Integration, Resilience, and Acrobatics.  I almost never get locked down.  Of course I'm a spines/regen and I'm still having fun leveling, grouping, mission completing, and getting costume parts, but if I was on a low number server I don't think I would like it.

I don't want 40 hero/villian vs one epic critter (well maybe a few) but most comic stuff is about the one hero or small team vs the big bad bunchies that are trying to take over the world!

Well it sure didnt seem close to as good when I came back as when I left. I got hold lock killed by Carnies a ton until I started passing on their missions.
I held off on getting integration until I needed it, about the time you meet those nazi vampires in founder's falls and having it back then was great, Never got stunned after I took it but when I came back half the mobs in carnie missions would stun me and drop all my toggles, making them a pain in the ass to fight.

[Glazius]

Well it sure didnt seem close to as good when I came back as when I left. I got hold lock killed by Carnies a ton until I started passing on their missions. I held off on getting integration until I needed it, about the time you meet those nazi vampires in founder's falls and having it back then was great, Never got stunned after I took it but when I came back half the mobs in carnie missions would stun me and drop all my toggles, making them a pain in the ass to fight.

Now you pick up Integration at 16, for the stat resists and the bonus regen.

What? Carnies? What? Unless you've got Integration confused with Acrobatics (Acro only protects against holds, and the flashbulb blind Illusionists hit you with has a small overlapping AoE sleep) I have no idea how that could be working.

Normal and Dark Ring Mistresses do this thing that wipes out your endurance, and all Carnies pop a proximity end-drain on death. That'll wipe out your blue bar, which will cause your toggles to crash, but Ring Mistresses are bosses, and shouldn't be showing up every other group.

[UnSub]

Maybe enough Illusionists (or Master Illusionists) stacked could lock down a Scrapper - Carnie minion attacks do have a small chance of stunning you / putting you to sleep momentarily as well.

[Phred]

Maybe enough Illusionists (or Master Illusionists) stacked could lock down a Scrapper - Carnie minion attacks do have a small chance of stunning you / putting you to sleep momentarily as well.

It's been so long I really can't remember but I think it was illusionist bosses that pissed me off the most. I remember the end drain and some other hold that left me twiddling my thumbs a lot. Especially as the end drain would knock all my toggles off and I could never get interation back up fast enough. I'm positive it was a hold cause I remember using one of the quick buff thingies to remove it once.

[Lantyssa]

Master Illusionists were particularly bad.  Psi damage, endurance drain (from them and/or all the minions, I can't remember), Illusionist pets, and on a few occasions they blasted through all my mez protections.  They were one of the few mobs I was weary of fighting as a tank.  Sappers being the other I can recall, although they seemed toned down a bit when I played my last free weekend.

[Trippy]

Don't forget their intangability.

Re: Sappers - AFAICT they haven't changed but I usually Deceive them at the start

[eldaec]

If you are getting hit with the five or so holds an illusionist needs to break through integration on a regular basis, then I'm sorry, but you're doing it wrong.

Happily it's easy enough to avoid Carnies, or any other villian group you have issues with.

Plus nothing stops you stocking up on 'break free' potions before you go in, I've never needed to do so on a scrapper - but if you are getting held a lot it might help. They cost basically nothing so it can't hurt.

[Phred]

If you are getting hit with the five or so holds an illusionist needs to break through integration on a regular basis, then I'm sorry, but you're doing it wrong.

Happily it's easy enough to avoid Carnies, or any other villian group you have issues with.

Plus nothing stops you stocking up on 'break free' potions before you go in, I've never needed to do so on a scrapper - but if you are getting held a lot it might help. They cost basically nothing so it can't hurt.

I guess I pushed the intergration toggle button less skillfully than required then. Only trouble with stocking up on break frees was the only place I ever found them was on msisions. Never saw them on a contact for sale.

[Trippy]

Only trouble with stocking up on break frees was the only place I ever found them was on msisions. Never saw them on a contact for sale.

Any of your contacts that you've filled the bar on (or close to it) will sell them to you including your starting contact in AP (or GC if you made a mistake in selection). Also the bartenders in Pocket D and the Arena suppliers sell them.

[eldaec]

I suspect he's clicking on contacts with insufficient skill, much like the underlying integration problem he appears to have.

[Llava]

I did have some problems on my SR scrapper against the Carnies back in the day.  Practiced Brawler wasn't a toggle, so it wasn't as bad, but every now and then I'd find myself Held through it.