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Furiously
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Reply #35 on: November 05, 2007, 01:19:03 PM

Beacon is the most wonderful skill for boss fights. Escape is pure love too.

I loved both on my Engineer.  I really screwed them up on the robot pet though. I thought the heal and shield abilities would be awesome for grouping... They were not.

rk47
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Reply #36 on: November 05, 2007, 06:17:35 PM

Uh, ok so I just Beacon+Snipe+Escape+Sprint loop on bosses? I personally just panicked on Emperor since I was running out of places to run.
The point with slow levelling is, there's hardly a variety of attacks to use from lvl 1-10...it just feels like a dull shooter. I admit the sniping from 40m with no zoom kinda gets to me, but catching those leaping shits in mid air gives off a little satisfaction, then it's back to picking up loot again, disassemble.

I think this makes the single player largely dull, and the only way to have fun is probably team-play online which is why my friends told me I'm crazy not to buy it for online play alone. (They bought original, I had an hour worth of seating in one of their PCs). Still thinking of it, I'm happy with The Witcher at the moment (great RPG) and worry how much lag would affect my sniping online.

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Trouble
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Reply #37 on: November 05, 2007, 06:41:47 PM

Here's the build you want as Marksman:

http://hellgate.ingame.de/skilltree/marksman/?l=50&s=0a002007000235000000030a700

Rapid Fire is just amazing. That's your large group and boss killing skill. Beacon is also amazing. Multi-beacon is where the party is at though later game.

Anyway, with this build you can do a little long range sniping. You don't use a sniper rifle though. You can use an automatic rifle or dual pistols or whatever. Rapid Fire pumps out an incredible amount of damage. Late game you'll have multi-shot which combined with other abilities is just plain ridiculous.

As far as crits...you don't really crit all that often until maybe late game with an assload of gear. The best way to get a feel for your crit rate is when the mini-game has crits as one of the requirements. I was only critting once every 10-20 seconds of full out firing. Therefore I haven't pumped too many points into the crit abilities.
Phunked
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Reply #38 on: November 06, 2007, 02:38:43 PM

If you're using rapid fire, get the crit skills. Rapid fire = 600 shots in 3 seconds = at least one crit. They fixed them to all 3 skills can activate on the same crit now. This this doesn't make it wise to max them, but 1 ricochet, 3 reflected shot and 1 homing shot will increase your damage by at least 250%, assuming you can aim a cluster rifle/rapid fire. Multibeacon is nice, but as a one pointer. Most packs of things die extremely fast with multibeacon 1 and rapid fire 6 or higher, so adding more % is overkill. Especially with ricochet up (and it almost always is).

Similarly, multishot is a 1 point wonder. Pop mutlishot, press rapid fire and watch the carnage. Multishot provides too little return for subsequent investment: with the rapid fire build, you'll already be killing most packs within 3-5 seconds, so adding additional seconds of double shots is wasted, since you aren't shooting at anything. For single targets (bosses) odds are, you'll be firing in bursts while you run around kiting them. Multishot  is again only being used for the 3 seconds of rapid fire you're putting out in between kites.

Max beacon though. It's great utility, good for groups (if you ever do that) and is the largest damage gain per point invested.

Also, every single marksman should have Escape 1. No questions about this.

As a whole, I'm advocating  a build that looks something like this:

http://hellgate.ingame.de/skilltree/marksman/?l=50&s=0a01a1070003370100010301100


A small note about the passive on crit skills:

Ricochet, Homing and Reflecting shots can now proc from the same critical hit, and they will all stack.


By putting 5 points in, you get a 40% ricochet chance, 35% reflecting and 25% homing. This does not come out to a 100% chance to trigger, however it does equate to a good chance to trigger at least one effect on a critical. The exact math is difficult, because we are not yet certain what order the chances are applied and in what fashion. The current theory is that they are multiplicative in the fashion that ricochet will trigger on 40 out of 100 crits, reflecting on 35 out of 100 and homing on 25 out of 100. The previous formula allowed for only one effect to trigger at one time, leading to ricochet triggering 40/100, then homing triggering 21/60 shots and reflecting triggering on 9.75/39 shots. This led to ricochet decreasing the uptime of the other 2 by a substantial margin. Using the current theory, each one is rolled simultaneously, leading to a (0.4*0.35*0.25 = 3.5% that all will trigger on one crit) and a 71% chance that at least one will trigger on a hit. Using a machine pistol with a 600 round/minute, or a 10round/sec rate of fire, with one in each hand and a base crit  of 10% (on each, easily available with maxed dead eye) rapid fire will cause you to fire 10*3*2*2.35 = 141 rounds over 3 seconds (282 with multishot up). Of these, 14.1 (28.2) will crit, which will almost guarantee that at least one passive will trigger (2.9e-8 chance of none being up, or about 3 in 10 million). In addition, you have a 40% chance of all 3 going up.

How the passives work:

Ricochet allows your bullets to bounce off any hard surface up to 3 times. Hard surfaces include the ground, non-destructible environment objects, and monsters. This means that if you get a perfect ricochet, you did 4 times the amount of damage of the bullet. This requires that you're facing at least 2 mobs. If you're facing just one mob (like a boss), a well placed ricochet on the groun can lead to a 2x increase in damage (hit mob, bounce 1 off mob, bounce 2 off ground, +hit mob , bounce 3 off mob)

Reflected shot allows your bullets to reflect and re target additional targets, up to 2 times. Currently, it seems that they can reflect off the initial target and hit it again. This leads to a flat 200% damage increase. This is by far the best passive skill, since it has a much tighter damage range than ricochet. However if both are up, preliminary testing indicates that reflecting will now trigger from each ricochet bounce, leading to a 600% damage increase (NOT YET CONFIRMED).

Homing shots do exactly what you'd think they do. They allow your bullets to follow targets, bypassing the physics engine. On its own, this passive sucks. Combined with the two above, however, it can drastically tighten the damage range, by increasing the percentage of bullets that keep hitting the targets instead of flying off into the distance.

A small note: only bullets that do not explode are affected by these. This means that any rocket launcher, mine layer, beam weapon, fire/lightning based rifle will not work with these. However, cluster rifles, assault rifles, and machine pistols do.

A note about cluster rifles: the rifle has it's own inherent ricochet effect. I have no idea how this stacks with the passives, but testing reveals that it does. And by testing, I mean that if I fire it into a crowd and ricochet comes up, that crowd dies. Very, very, very fast. Cluster rifles are ideal against groups and in areas with lots of geometry to bounce things off. Machine pistols/assault rifles are typically better against single targets. For aiming a cluster rifle, aim a little in front of the enemy. This causes the cluster shot to explode and release shrapnel. This increases the chance that several shrapnel will hit your desired target/targets. This does more damage than a dead on single hit.

« Last Edit: November 06, 2007, 02:44:14 PM by Phunked »
MrHat
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Reply #39 on: November 06, 2007, 02:46:29 PM

My God.
Trouble
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Reply #40 on: November 06, 2007, 03:01:03 PM

I like that build a lot.
Miasma
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Reply #41 on: November 06, 2007, 03:26:36 PM

Words
Okay... so assume I use your build, just to simplify things it would help to know how you play as you go through a level.  Like do you use beacon every time it is up or only faced with a group of mobs?  Imagine you are running a dungeon, what buttons do you mash as you face the following situations:

1) Standard clearing of a few enemies here and there.
2) A large group of mobs.
3) A boss fight.

I like the build because it seems mostly passive with low energy use but I don't want to screw it up by never using the correct combination of skiills.
MrHat
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Reply #42 on: November 06, 2007, 03:27:54 PM

Words
Okay... so assume I use your build, just to simplify things it would help to know how you play as you go through a level.  Like do you use beacon every time it is up or only faced with a group of mobs?  Imagine you are running a dungeon, what buttons do you mash as you face the following situations:

1) Standard clearing of a few enemies here and there.
2) A large group of mobs.
3) A boss fight.

I like the build because it seems mostly passive with low energy use but I don't want to screw it up by never using the correct combination of skiills.

1. Rapid Fire
2. Rapid Fire
3. Rapid Fire + HP Injectors
Trouble
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Reply #43 on: November 06, 2007, 03:33:29 PM

Use beacon on any monsters that take more than 3 seconds to kill.
Murgos
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Reply #44 on: November 06, 2007, 03:43:26 PM

Beacon is up every 2 seconds.  Use it as often as you like.

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Phunked
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Reply #45 on: November 06, 2007, 03:55:18 PM

Sorry for the wall of text.

I'm used to doing this shit from all my hardcore WoW raiding days. Don't do anything without the numbers. (ie catass2victory).

In reply

1. Depends what enemies. If they're the high hp, no shield types, I beacon and burn with an assault rifle (modded for phase, and ignite). Phase and ignite will eat anything in seconds, and when combined with beacon, it's extremely effective at picking off any of the HP high things (carnagors, etc).

For anything that's shielded, I use beacon with another assault rifle modded for shield penetration. These things are usually orbiles, furies, etc. Any of the annoying flying spectrals.

2. For a large group of monsters, I beacon one (to put multibeacon on everything), switch to a cluster rifle (modded for stun and phase), use multishot then run to 20m and use rapid fire. After that, I spend like a minute picking up the loot that I got from killing everything. If there's a support type (diabolist, summoners, etc) in the crowd, I escape to be right behind him, and then beacon+multi+ rapid fire. Ensures that he dies first.

3. Boss fight. Most bosses hit marksmen REALLY REALLY HARD. So you end up kiting them. I use the phase+ignite gun for these. The way I do it is this: before I engage, i throw up beacon, pop multishot run up and rapid fire. When rapid fire is over, hit escape and run behind the boss. Turn fire a couple shots while rapid fire cools down, then use rapid fire. Now sprint away since escape is still on cooldown. Run around till escape and multishot come up, then repeat from the start. An assault rifle with phase and ignite is incredibly good for single targets, since the phase and ignite chances are calculated each time a bullet hits; meaning that faster firing weapons tend to phase and ignite much more consistently.

The biggest threat to this build, and any marksman in general, is getting either chain stunned (so that you can't move/escape/whatever) by a swarm of enemies in melee, or getting shocked (electrical damage) which prevents skill use and then getting swarmed. You can avoid this by playing smart. Watch where the enemies are, and use rapid fire at the right time. Use it when things are 15-20m away. This is the ideal range at which they'll eat most of your bullets and at the same time won't be in your face beating on you.

This build is effective because, as you say, it is largely passive and works on your basic FPS skills instead of constant button mashing. You don't need to beacon/rapid fire everything. Very often you can kill extremely fast just by aiming a cluster rifle properly and letting the passives do the work. Beacon and rapid fire will let you be extremely effective against harder enemies, which is what you really want. Anyone can kill trash with damn near any gun, but some of the bosses and stuff are harder.
Aez
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Reply #46 on: November 06, 2007, 05:14:05 PM

Letting those passives stack is insane.  Good build, thx for the math.
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Reply #47 on: November 07, 2007, 01:44:24 AM

Info

I've put off my marksman until elite, and i love this build. TY.

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rk47
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Reply #48 on: November 07, 2007, 02:00:10 AM

will test on single player. Thanks  Heart if this works out, I might just buy the box  awesome, for real

Question: How are dual pistols?  I like the cooler looking stuff, but it seems like autorifle are best  undecided
« Last Edit: November 07, 2007, 02:14:13 AM by rk47 »

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Phunked
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Reply #49 on: November 07, 2007, 07:01:31 AM

Dual pistols work fine. The autorifle is just easier, because you only need to find one weapon with nice mods and slots instead of two. In theory two perfect pistols > 1 perfect autorifle.

Just remember to get the dual automatic pistols (machine pistols/perforators/ shotgun pistols even), and not the flame thrower ones. The beam weapons cannot ricochet/reflect/home, which makes them largely useless with the passive stacking. Also the damage degradation on them really sucks with rapid fire. In general, you want the fastest weapons you can get until a crit % of around 16, then you can start downgrading weapon speed for damage/shot.

Phunked
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Reply #50 on: November 07, 2007, 08:50:48 PM

Oh and if you're still interested for any theorycraft on this issue, check out the

http://forums.hellgatelondon.com/showthread.php?t=33282&page=6 thread. I'm Challenge. More math numbarz!
Dren
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Reply #51 on: November 16, 2007, 09:43:02 AM

I've been taking my time trying out the different classes and finally got one of these running.

Nice.

There is just something that feels soooo good about clicking just a few shots off on an automatic and taking out a demon immediately.  Or even better, straffing across a room and taking out 20 of them.

Damn that feels good.  I mean in a way that seems more satisfying than an Evoker for some reason.  It just FEELS more powerful.
Ratman_tf
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Reply #52 on: November 16, 2007, 10:04:51 AM

Marksman is my first class, and I'm just tinkering with the skills. Hardly min-maxing but I am putting more points into the passive crit abilities.

I use an assault rifle in my #1 slot, and twin machine pistols in my #3 slot, for long and short range work respectivley.

I use my #2 slot for fucking around with whatever gun tickles my fancy at the time, but I keep coming back to the twin rocket pistols.

Tactical stance+beacon and see if I can snipe a bunch of the mobs, as they get in close, I switch to rockets or machine pistols depending on how many and how tough they are.

I don't find myself using rapid fire since it makes you immobile for longer than switching out of tac stance, and it's a good way to get overwhelmed by grunts until you're boxed in.

I also circle strafe at med/short range because I'm a spaz.


Now about armor, I notice the "rifleman" armor is mostly shields. I've been shy about going all shields and no armor. What's the concensus on that?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 10:06:35 AM by Ratman_tf »



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Dren
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Reply #53 on: November 16, 2007, 11:37:35 AM

My guess is that if you go all shields you better get your fear and other CC pumped up.  The shields will allow you to take more incedental damage while running around like crazy, but not for long.  It should hold out long enough to get a CC power off though and that is all you need.

My thought is that armor is really only good for those characters that will be planning to be overwhelmed a lot, which really is only the Guardian.  As a Marksman, I do not really plan to ever be whacked on long enough to get past my shields.  If they do, I'm toast regardless anyway.
Murgos
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Reply #54 on: November 16, 2007, 12:43:15 PM

No MM build should be without 1 point in evade.

Shields drop?  Hit evade, run away, try again.

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caladein
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Reply #55 on: November 16, 2007, 01:39:35 PM

If you do that though, be on the look-out for some legendaries with +Armor on them. Pound-for-pound they seem to offer a lot of mitigation you may be lacking elsewhere (especially in comparison to +Shields).

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LK
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Reply #56 on: November 16, 2007, 03:17:04 PM

I found a belt that gave me +68 armor, turning my shield-less mitigation from 4% to 33% at that level.  So I kept that shit.

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Jimbo
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Reply #57 on: November 17, 2007, 02:53:15 PM

Hey thanks for the ideas, I've been thinking of how to apply some of it to my engineer.

I keep going back to my 20mm rifle, it was a white item @ lvl 3, got lucky with 3 legendary enchants (+ 3% critical chance, +102% ? critical damage, & + 105% critical damage) and has 4 slots.  I slotted it first, then enchanted, then used the nano forge to level it up 5 times.  That is a lot cheaper than blues or greens or highers being upgraded.

Has anyone found a 20mm rifle with more than 4 slots?

Or for that matter, has anyone started a weapons guide, sort of like diablo II had, where it shows what the progression of weapons are, how many slots, and what mods are available?  http://www.diabloii.net/  has a cornucopia of information, and so did the Arreat Summit on blizzard home page, hopefully someone will start up a web site for this game.

Dren
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Reply #58 on: November 20, 2007, 11:32:08 AM

No MM build should be without 1 point in evade.

Shields drop?  Hit evade, run away, try again.

Yeah, I actually skipped the fear ability and went with evade.  Fear type abilities usually just prolong the death since everything runs out to pull even more agro.  Dropping to invis in the middle of getting whomped on?  Perfect.
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Reply #59 on: November 20, 2007, 12:34:47 PM

Has anyone found a 20mm rifle with more than 4 slots?

I found a 5-slot white item yesterday and was all excited since my 4-slot "vanquisher" is getting kind of old.  Of course, second enchant on it fucked the thing.. "+1 to Medpack" Wtf? I was willing to suffer through with 'only' -10% to tactical skill usage rate but bah. 

It would seem my Legendary +61 luck belt doesn't apply to enchants.  awesome, for real

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taolurker
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Reply #60 on: November 20, 2007, 02:32:53 PM

Has anyone found a 20mm rifle with more than 4 slots?




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geldonyetich2
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Reply #61 on: November 20, 2007, 03:19:35 PM

I think he means 20mm rifle that actually says 20mm rifle on it.

Although, actually, a Volt Rifle is about the same.  Just shoots electricity instead of bullets.  Combustion rifle too, with fire.
rattran
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Reply #62 on: November 20, 2007, 08:52:21 PM

The electric and fire automatics don't seem to change at all when the crit passives go off, as has been mentioned higher up in the thread.

Even with that, I've got 6 slot fire and 7 slot electric on slots 2&3 for special situations and minigame use. 95% of the time I use the ancient 4slot 20mm I've had for ages. That said, I'll be finishing elite soon, maybe there'll be better in elite nightmare.
Dren
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Reply #63 on: November 26, 2007, 02:54:04 PM

MM with invis is really quite powerful.  I have been trying other builds and this one is just the most fun and powerful.  As long as I can get setup on a shelf or corner of a dungeon, I can pick off anything they've thrown at me so far.

I now have a loaded up sniper rifle that literally rips monsters apart with one shot in sniper stance.  Much love.
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