Never Finished: Dark Age of Camelot, v. 1.71 Review

[Merusk]

And chinslim, it really does describe most other mmogs.

In EQ( disclaimer...I never played EQ ), you pve and level...and pve and level and gain phat lewt that helps you pve and level more.  I can't imagine a carrot in sight anywhere.

The Carrot is the next level for spells/hp/ to-hit +es , the next AA ability, or the next piece of phat lewt that you'll be able to go on a raid for when you get that next level.

Tank, healer, mage roles can work in PvP, but it's Mythic implementation that made it suck.

I won't go into the whole 'why football is a bad analogy for current online PvP games'  argument, but I expect others will.

That said, give me a situation in a class-based PvP game where your strategy isn't, Kill the healers, kill the mages, then cleanup the tanks.  You'll find you're reinventing all the classes from their 'traditional' roles if you do, or turning everyone into the same class.

What Alkiera said is true. Support classes suck to play for most people.  When they don't they're usually overpowered in relation to the other classes.  Hell, even when a company goes a long way to make a support class somewhat fun (wow priests) the PLAYERS fuck things up by forcing the old standby roles instead of reinventing strategies for a new game.

[chinslim]

That said, give me a situation in a class-based PvP game where your strategy isn't, Kill the healers, kill the mages, then cleanup the tanks. You'll find you're reinventing all the classes from their 'traditional' roles if you do, or turning everyone into the same class.

Since you love my football analogy so much(don't refute if you can't give good reasons why), I'll give you another: you can try sending a cornerback or safety to blitz the quarterback(mobbing the healer) but you risk leaving a man open and they may pick up the blitz and dump the ball off real quick.  There also happens to be collision detection in football so you can't just rush 5-6 guys at the QB without running into big 300 lb linemen or getting in each other's way.

You can do anything if you program it, so there's no reason why tank, mage, healer can't work in PvP. Healers in DAOC PvP don't work simply because there's no disadvantage or counter to attacking one.  There are many ways of doing this, and the ML tank ability Bodyguard comes to mind.  Too bad you have to grind to ML8 for it.  This is an example of how in order to even step on the playing field(most RvR groups won't take a tank unless he has BG), you have to grind your butt off.

To continue with my football analogies: I mentioned earlier how if you have 5-6 guys chasing 1 person, they can get in each other's way.  It won't work in a game without collision detection, but you can still simulate it, for example, by limiting the damage a character takes relative to the scaling of the number of attackers.

Get creative, yeesh.

[Alkiera]

And chinslim, it really does describe most other mmogs.

In EQ( disclaimer...I never played EQ ), you pve and level...and pve and level and gain phat lewt that helps you pve and level more.  I can't imagine a carrot in sight anywhere.

The carrot is new content.  You fight in areas you know until you're strong enough to survive traveling to areas that are new.  This is why they keep adding new zones, new quests.  The achievers just go after the big levels and AA counts, the explorers use those so they can survive the new content.  Socializers tend to hang out and chat, and therefore either aren't high level, or have friends who they group with while chatting.  Killers don't have much of a place in EQ, tho the PvP servers do have some devoted followers.

Really, I think the classic 'archetype' system of tank, healer/buffer, melee damage and ranged damage won't work in a PvP game. Primarily because half the archetypes aren't fun.

Let's compare DAOC to football...8(11) players on each side playing various roles as part of the whole.  Your QB can switch over to TE if he sucks or someone else is better.  Coaches can make adjustments on the fly, inserting a 3rd wide receiver, going pro set with 2 running backs, or inserting a dime package to counter 4 wide outs.

The position of coach is played by the guild leader or raid leader or group leader in an MMOG.  In PvE, there's often someone who is familiar with the encounter and lets people know what to expect, and how to handle the situation, like a coach does in practice.  In PvP, with no rules of engagement, it's hard to know what to expect, really, so tactics devolves into 'zerg'.

 In Camelot, if your healer quits or wants to play something else, it's akin to the whole group having to go through another 50 levels for the readjustment of 1 or 2 players.  When the group is supposed to be the central tenet of the game, inflexible characters are totally unnecessary and very often detrimental.  Who is to say but Mythic that someone who pressed "heal" for 50 levels just can't do "/assist main, anytime style"?  The character limitations are assininely artificial and only serves to prevent more players from becoming involved in RVR and any other group participation activities.

Tank, healer, mage roles can work in PvP, but it's Mythic implementation that made it suck.

The character limitations are limitations of the decision to use a class/archetype system.  FFXI lets your character have every possible class, more or less, but you still have to level each one.  Aside from subclassing, they all might as well be alts with the same name, and no inventory space.

While I agree that Mythic's implementation is not neccesarily the most desirable one, my opinion is that 'tank/healer/mage' is a broken system in PvP AND PvE.  Once we can get past that system, I think some more innovative, interesting things will be possible.

--
Alkiera

[Sky]

In EQ( disclaimer...I never played EQ ),

And you expect me to keep reading beyond that? Stick to what you know.

As far as tank/healer/mage being broken in pvp, I don't think that's it at all. It's the power curve/time sink that level-based mmog advancement uses, plus the crappy lock-on target idea.

Battlefield uses several archetypes like the medic and I guess the sniper is kind of a mage :) High direct damage output with little defense, anyway. Or an engineer who has some decent aoe 'spells'. But the medic never has to worry about not being able to hit the sniper, or have the sniper be buffed up, or any of the other crap the crappy mmog system brings into play that makes pvp crappy.

[HaemishM]

Tank, healer, mage roles can work in PvP, but it's Mythic implementation that made it suck.

Don't blame Mythic's implementation, blame the whole DikuMud paradigm, which is where DAoC's implementation comes from. Just about every MMOG on the market uses some variation of the tried and tired DikuMud Tank/Healer/Mage combo. DAoC's version of it is decent, but it's still chained to its DikuMud origins.

Just like EQ.

[AlteredOne]

Mythic does deserve credit for offering a game that held my attention longer than any other MMO.  I would say the high point was after the Shrouded Isles expansion, pre Trials of Atlantis.  For that period (around spring 2003) I had a lot of fun for these reasons:
1)  The PvE grind ended at 50, and player-crafted armor was the best out there.  If you had a decent guild, you could create an RvR-viable toon in a couple weeks.  Then it was ALL RVR, 24/7.  ToA added a whole new grind, much longer than the 1-50 treadmill.  
2)  Radar utilities were not widely available.  There was Linux-based radar used by some hardcore types, but the Windows-based radar was still on the horizon.  By fall of 2003, RvR was dominated by hardcore 8v8 "gank groups" using radar.  Up to that point, it was still possible to make a pickup group of decent players, and be reasonably competitive.

I was a guild leader and serious RvR player, until Trials of Atlantis arrived.  Yet I still managed to be semi-casual, maybe 2-3 hours most weeknights.  ToA was simply so time-consuming that I quit.  Like you, I re-activated for New Frontiers, mainly enjoyed the new battlegrounds for about a month, and cancelled again.

This genre evolves slowly, with few developers willing to try anything revolutionary.  To Mythic's credit, the original DAOC avoided some of EQ's mistakes, and added a viable team PvP system.  At release, DAOC was much less item-centric than EQ, and arguably the PvE treadmill was a bit more tolerable.  

Unfortunately Mythic radically changed their game with expansions, with ToA being an absolute disaster forcing every character in every realm to spend enormous effort gaining "master abilities" and artifacts.  I suspect this change was related to Mythic getting a huge influx of investment capital that year, with their new masters saying "Make this game more like EQ with more high-level raid content."  Meanwhile, EQ was evolving toward a more casual-friendly model with instanced dungeons and faster experience.

Here's hoping that Guild Wars can offer the team-based PvP that DAOC players loved so much, without all the groan-inducing repetitive PvE!!

Nice site, by the way.

[chinslim]

Radar was probably the reason behind the move towards keep-based RvR promoted in NF.  I've always thought Mythic should have relented and build in radar into every client.

[Trippy]

Tank, healer, mage roles can work in PvP, but it's Mythic implementation that made it suck.

Don't blame Mythic's implementation, blame the whole DikuMud paradigm, which is where DAoC's implementation comes from. Just about every MMOG on the market uses some variation of the tried and tired DikuMud Tank/Healer/Mage combo. DAoC's version of it is decent, but it's still chained to its DikuMud origins.

Just like EQ.

The Tank/Healer/Mage combo has been around since Wizardry I in CRPGs, as has the six people per party convention.

[AlteredOne]

Radar was probably the reason behind the move towards keep-based RvR promoted in NF.  I've always thought Mythic should have relented and build in radar into every client.

I think NF was a sincere effort on Mythic's part to add more complex strategy and tactics to RvR, and radar was just one of the factors.  I remember back last December when Mythic first asked for ideas on a new design for RvR.   Some of us were very vocal on the early NF Vault forum, and the design of NF ended looking uncannily like our suggestions.  It was one of the rare occasions when I've seen a productive use of the VN boards.

Even without radar, the original RvR had grown stale, and NF really did shake things up.  But even with experience as a closed beta tester, I did not foresee how quickly the new RvR would get old.  The old "8v8" players are bored stiff, and most of the battles have devolved into massive army-vs-army lag fests, with players mainly participating to farm realm points.

Finally to Mythic's credit, at the time of NF release, they began some serious efforts to suspend and ban radar users.  I always figured these programs had to use some detectable "hook" in the graphics memory, and sure enough Mythic found a way to sniff them out.  Combined with their encryption of network traffic to defeat the old packet-based radar, Mythic has done some nice work vs. the cheaters.  I just wish their game was still fun to play.

[Soukyan]

Finally to Mythic's credit, at the time of NF release, they began some serious efforts to suspend and ban radar users.  I always figured these programs had to use some detectable "hook" in the graphics memory, and sure enough Mythic found a way to sniff them out.  Combined with their encryption of network traffic to defeat the old packet-based radar, Mythic has done some nice work vs. the cheaters.  I just wish their game was still fun to play.

This may work on the Windows version of the radar hack that is running on the same box as the client, but the Linux/Unix version that is run from a separate box is still completely undetectable. Not that many people have that version or are capable of running it, but on your own home network, it's still a simple matter. The encryption also does not prevent this. But they've probably done away with a good amount of radar users at least and that's a good thing for the game.

[chinslim]

One of the causes of zerging is, ironically, the expansiveness of the frontiers.  Everyone wants to be where the action is so everyone stays in Emain Macha.  It just compounds from there.

Someday, Mythic will have to bite the bullet and drastically reduce the frontiers to 2 or 3 zones.  Heck, why make it more than 1 zone during certain time periods?  After Catacombs, maybe they can even figure out a way to rotate maps to keep things fresh.

But they've probably done away with a good amount of radar users at least and that's a good thing for the game.

All it takes is 1 bad apple...at least when "everyone" had it the playing field was more even.  So now you have just 1 or 2 elite gank groups, what's changed?

[Soukyan]

But they've probably done away with a good amount of radar users at least and that's a good thing for the game.

All it takes is 1 bad apple...at least when "everyone" had it the playing field was more even.  So now you have just 1 or 2 elite gank groups, what's changed?

Good point. The 8 man elite radar groups are back and can still work unscathed. I didn't look at it that way. It'd be easier if they just put in a radar mini-screen for all players. They could chalk it up to "our scouts report there are 87 Albs to the southeast" sort of RP thing. But it's their prerogative and if the community as a whole has quieted about the radar debacle, then all is well. Ignorance is bliss, especially when they're paying customers. ;)

[Fargull]

The Tank/Healer/Mage combo has been around since Wizardry I in CRPGs, as has the six people per party convention.

Er.. earlier than that.. from a little thing called Dungeons and Dragons...

The whole Party concept needs to be revised, not just the class system.

[Trippy]

The Tank/Healer/Mage combo has been around since Wizardry I in CRPGs, as has the six people per party convention.

Er.. earlier than that.. from a little thing called Dungeons and Dragons...

That's why I said "CRPG" and not "RPG". In D&D, though, you didn't necessarily need a healer or tank or mage or whatever since the DM could adapt the setting and encounters to match the make up of the group.

[Soukyan]

The Tank/Healer/Mage combo has been around since Wizardry I in CRPGs, as has the six people per party convention.

Er.. earlier than that.. from a little thing called Dungeons and Dragons...

That's why I said "CRPG" and not "RPG". In D&D, though, you didn't necessarily need a healer or tank or mage or whatever since the DM could adapt the setting and encounters to match the make up of the group.

Sorta liked the scaled encounters in CoH. Dynamic instanced missions are a must have in any upcoming MMOG. If they can be streamlined and "made better", it would be able to mimic that DM adaptation for players.

[HaemishM]

I have yet to understand why CRPG's/MMOG's can't use the scaled encounter principle for most encounters. Why have a con system at all? Why not just dynamically scale the encounter's difficulty based on a number of factors determined at the moment the encounter begins?

Oh right, because it's easier to put in cockblock levels and monsters in choke points to herd your player base into the treadmill.

Sarcasm aside, this would be one nice way of removing the "level-itis" most MMOG's suffer from. I have no idea if dynamically scaling the difficulty of a monster is possible, or if those calculations would choke the server. Certain encounters could be gated, such as say dragon raids, to only be opened after other encounters are done, to keep complete newbs from wandering into the "high-end" content.

[Paelos]

Well, I think it's more that something that is static is much easier to program than something that is dynamic. If your mobs are constantly adjusting based on the players involved, that increases the levels of complex computations going on every minute. Basically, it could be done but the cost/benefit of the time involved to do it wouldn't be the high in my view. The difference between the two types of mobs would be noticable by the player, but the market won't bear the workload yet since we accept the current system.

[chinslim]

The biggest problem any player(especially a new one) coming into DAOC is really the social hurdle.  Thanks to inflexible class restrictions and the nature of high-end PvE/RVR content, you simply can't get anywhere without a full group.  Buff bots aren't really a problem so much as a symptom of this.  Even with buff bots and the best items, you still won't get anywhere unless you make friends.  Being in a healthy-sized guild or belonging to a good alliance helps with TOA raids, and the encounter AI is such that everything has a writeup and can be done with the right numbers.

No, I don't think the "grinding" is really the problem.  With the right group, all that PvE is cake, and even a blast.  The fundamental problem right from DAOC's release is the difficulty of assembling a regular group of 8 players multiplied by the difficulty of forming the right(or even close to it) combination of classes.  This is really where class restrictions are a pain.  Hell, I've seen good guilds fall apart due to petty jealousies from who got to play in the "main" group.

I think DAOC can be alot of fun, but I shudder at the thought of waiting around LFG for hours before being able to do anything or trying to convince 6 other people to stick around as I desperately try to find 1 more healer.  I've got old 50's I'd like to pick up again, but without old friends who quit, those toons are basically useless.

[Vox Canis]

I'm really interested in hearing ideas for alternatives to the Mage/Tank/Healer system... something that makes everyone useful, but still gives them a role to play.

Even CoH uses M/T/H, it's just Controller/Tanker/Defender.