Kerry concedes election?

[toma levine]

don't kick illegals out of school

For the record, the people of CA passed Prop 187 which denied illegals any benefits paid for by taxpayer dollars. Our former, now recalled, governor Gray Davis managed to kill the prop by failing to appeal a temporary restraining order. There is an active campaign running to get a replacement proposition on the ballot.

Trust me, just because CA state government is wacko it doesn't make the whole state bad.

[SirBruce]

Kerry has done a lot to make himself look like "Bush Lite."  He's for the War on Terror, but not like Bush has pursued it.  He supports the Patriot Act, but not all the provisions Bush wants/has.  He supported holding Saddam accountable, or maybe going to war with Iraq, or maybe helping rebuild Iraq now, but again, not in the ways Bush did it.  He is opposed to gay marriage, but not to the degree Bush is.  He supports drug perscription benefits for seniors, but not the Bush plan.  He supports tax cuts, but not the Bush tax cuts.  Etc.

Of course, there are real differences between the candidates, such as on abortion, the economy, and so on.  And there's nothing wrong with saying, "Yeah, the other guy has the right idea, but his plan sucks and my plan is better."  But it gets back to the whole "nuanced", "intellectual", and at times "flip-flop" thing that makes explaining these differences in the modern media extremely difficult.  The only person I know who was capable of pulling it off was Clinton, and he only got away with it because of his many advantages: He was a better speaker, he was a better politician, He ran towards the middle, He ran against two very weak Republican candidates, and both times he also had help from Perot.

Clinton, like Carter and Reagan who also defeated unpopular one-term incumbants, also offered a positive, hopeful alternative rather than just criticism of the other guy.

Kerry is no Clinton.

Bruce

[Shannow]

Maybe Democrats should get t-shirts made up:

'Least our presidents only invade interns'

[Boogaleeboo]

It's not like Clinton was involved in Somalia or hitting Milsovics ass or anything.

Oh, wait.

[Shannow]

It was a joke Boogs, relax.

Though if you insist I do recall both those situations being fully UN sanctioned.

[Flashman]

Though if you insist I do recall both those situations being fully UN sanctioned.

Actually, Clinton's actions in Serbia had neither UN nor Congressional authorization before he began bombing.

[Abagadro]

Bush I went into Somalia, not Clinton.

Kosovo was under the auspices first of NATO, then KFOR (the UN).

[Resvrgam]

If I go to school for a dollar a semester while collecting SSI for my disability, education is not to expensive.  FASFA can help too.  Stop complaining and do something, you don't have an excuse

Um...what about those of us who don't get SSI? NAACP? UNCF? or any other governmental handouts "because we're special?"

I had to steal to survive my college experiences because:
 
- Mommy and daddy didn't pay for my classes or room & board.
- I had to eat somehow and wasn't making enough for the "meal plan" nor sufficient groceries...hence the stealing.
- My "instate college" (which was all I could afford) sucked ass and I ended up learning more from software pirates and my peers than from any professor in the school (save for the extra-ciricular activities).

So, how was I not doing something?  Anyone can survive in this world, but it's a flawed system in which people who aren't handed out things have to break the law to survive.

[Shannow]

Though if you insist I do recall both those situations being fully UN sanctioned.

Actually, Clinton's actions in Serbia had neither UN nor Congressional authorization before he began bombing.

My bad I was thinking of Bosnia.

[Boogaleeboo]

Um...what about those of us who don't get SSI? NAACP? UNCF? or any other governmental handouts "because we're special?"

If you can't find a way to go to college, you aren't smart enough to get anything out of it.

Simple as that. There are so many programs out there, and so many cheap but fairly good colleges that if you can't find a way to get a useful degree you don't really want to get one.

You have nobody to blame but yourself. Just because other people had it easier doesn't mean you can't do it chief.

[Abagadro]

So sayeth the man who hasn't done it.

[Resvrgam]

So sayeth the man who hasn't done it.

No kidding. :)

My post essentially said: I did make it to/through college...but I had to bypass "the system" to do it.  My gripe is with the system itself (screw the poor, they don't need any healthcare or education).

I was drawing from that experience to explain how I feel about how the government as a whole works around here: more upfront profit, screw the future.

Besides, I know quite a few Doctors and people going for their second masters degrees who are complete morons.  Academics & education are not one in the same.

[Boogaleeboo]

Because I make more than a college grad now, and I'll be making more than the average college grad up till about.....35 I believe it tappers off and the average successful college grad makes more than me.

And I can still go to Northeastern today fully covered.

It's not my fault you can't deal with life.

My gripe is with the system itself (screw the poor, they don't need any healthcare or education).

It's called a county hospital, and the poor are the ones with access to most of those programs you listed.

Are you just fucking inept? Do you just like wallowing in your own shit?

You have no excuse for having to work so hard except being stupid.

[Resvrgam]

It's called a county hospital, and the poor are the ones with access to most of those programs you listed.

Are you just fucking inept? Do you just like wallowing in your own shit?

You have no excuse for having to work so hard except being stupid.

Damn. Someone's got a case of the "No one beat the Hell outta me enough when I was a kid" complex.

First off, There was a serious discussion going on above.  I simply added how I felt and then some irate turd-burglar started flaming the Hell outta me because someone said something that shattered his own microcosmic view of reality.

When you're done tossing your own salad and subsequently talking shit, the rest of us would like to continue the discussion in this thread.

thanks.

[schild]

Boog, he's right. Stop coming over here to stir up shit. If you need to go #1, do it in your own pool.

[Boogaleeboo]

Aw, but we ban our idiots. You are the only place to find them.

[slog]

If I go to school for a dollar a semester while collecting SSI for my disability, education is not to expensive.  FASFA can help too.  Stop complaining and do something, you don't have an excuse

Um...what about those of us who don't get SSI? NAACP? UNCF? or any other governmental handouts "because we're special?"

I had to steal to survive my college experiences because:
 
- Mommy and daddy didn't pay for my classes or room & board.
- I had to eat somehow and wasn't making enough for the "meal plan" nor sufficient groceries...hence the stealing.
- My "instate college" (which was all I could afford) sucked ass and I ended up learning more from software pirates and my peers than from any professor in the school (save for the extra-ciricular activities).

So, how was I not doing something?  Anyone can survive in this world, but it's a flawed system in which people who aren't handed out things have to break the law to survive.

Anther Crybaby looking for a handout.

I worked 70 hours a week in the summer Running a Jackhammer to pay college tuition.  One of my roommates worked as a Breakfast cook Full time while he purused his Triple Major undergraduate degree, and he now has his PHD.

You, my friend, sold your soul, when you didn't have to, for personal gain.  Congrats!!

[SirBruce]

I also engaged in some petty larceny (stealing from the student organization cash box) in order to get by in college.  And I ducked my landlord more than once, but eventually he got all his money before I left town.  My biggest regret is getting some guy over the Internet to send me a check for like $800.  I've never been able to pay him back because I no longer have any way to contact him.

Bruce

[Resvrgam]

I also engaged in some petty larceny (stealing from the student organization cash box) in order to get by in college.  And I ducked my landlord more than once, but eventually he got all his money before I left town.  My biggest regret is getting some guy over the Internet to send me a check for like $800.  I've never been able to pay him back because I no longer have any way to contact him.

Bruce

Ouch!  So that's where my $800.00 went?!  PM me for my contact information ;)

Care to share how you managed to obtain $800 from someone without supplying anything in return?  Teach me, oh sensei.

[Dark Vengeance]

Damn. Someone's got a case of the "No one beat the Hell outta me enough when I was a kid" complex.

*snip*

When you're done tossing your own salad and subsequently talking shit, the rest of us would like to continue the discussion in this thread.
thanks.

Well, when you spout a position defending your own apathy toward voting, the current American political system, and civic responsibility in things like jury duty (under the premise of 'what does it do for me?'), why should anything you say in defense of that be construed as "serious discussion"?? That's not a rhetorical question...I honestly would like to know.

Toss in some pseudo-class-warfare tripe, along with a conspiracy theory about why Bush ever got into office, and the admission that you don't like any alternatives.....and in all due respect, you make a fine case for yourself as being a babbling nitwit.

Blame society, blame the system, blame the rich, blame the politicians.....each is just another case of pointing the finger and absolving yourself of any personal responsibility for how your life has turned out.

Boog points out that you were not held at gunpoint and forced to make the choices you did, and presented the alternative path that he used (which did not include college) to reach his current station in life. He also pointed out that healthcare and education are NOT exclusive to the priveleged....making your position that the system says "screw the poor, they don't need any healthcare or education" is nothing more than meaningless hyperbole that is misrepresentative of reality.

Moreover, you point to "a flawed system in which people who aren't handed out things have to break the law to survive" as your justification for stealing.....and while you may enjoy painting yourself as Jean Valjean in this conversation, there are multiple people in this thread alone that worked their way through college, and made the necessary personal sacrifices so they DID NOT "have to break the law to survive". Hell, Boog went an entirely different route....and he still has the option to go, and the means to pay for it himself. Doesn't make his way better or worse, it just points out that your situation is as much a result of your own choices as anything else....and you should take full responsibility for that, instead of trying to use the 'I had no control over the hand I was dealt' excuse as some kind of trump card.

He took your arguments, exposed them for the pure excrement that they are, and you come back not only reacting as if he simply ignored your points, but that he is flaming you out of mere animosity, as opposed to his personal disdain for your own specious arguments.

Explain to me again how, seeing as how you refuse to vote, your opinion on ANYTHING related to our political process and the resulting state of the country is supposed to actually mean something? You have a voice, and that voice is your vote....if you choose to do nothing with that vote, why the fuck is anyone supposed to care that you feel the system is doing you a disservice? To do nothing and expect everyone else to come up with the proper solution is absolutely deplorable.....especially as an allegedly educated individual.

Bring the noise.
Cheers.............

[Resvrgam]

Toss in some pseudo-class-warfare tripe, along with a conspiracy theory about why Bush ever got into office, and the admission that you don't like any alternatives.....and in all due respect, you make a fine case for yourself as being a babbling nitwit.

I always get a kick out of how antagonistic those who have already 'gotten theirs' react when people point out things that state they didn't bust their ass as hard as they thought.

Lemme guess? Inheritence? some minority scholarship? parents involved in the school board or PTA?

I fail to see how beating down those who point out flaws in a failing system will help anyone.  By your justification: the system works just fine and the millions of people who aren't getting the adequate medical attention or advanced education to allow them a level playing field with the rich kids is due entirely to their stupidity.  ....Spoken like a true rich kid: "I've got mine, what's your problem?"

I'm not whining about how hard I had it or that I was denied the same opportunities as those born with a silver-spoon up their ass, I'm explaining that not everyone has the same opportunities as some and that, for those will come after us, there's a need for changes so they won't have as hard a time as many of the people this time around.

Simply voting for Candidate X who opposes Candidate Y's views is absolutely pointless.  It's hard for rich, middle-aged white men to even fathom the life of those not within their own microcosm (further proven to a degree by the attacks in this forum. Your profile says "golf" as an interest. 'nuff said).

Sure, you could write-in a 3rd party but we all know that's a wasted vote.  

How can someone make a difference without voting for one of those two morons?  Simple: get the issues advertised enough to make the populace angry enough about to bitch for a long enough time to get a feigned sincerity about said issue by one of the reptiles puting on a show for the media/polls.  Then, and only then, would voting actually work.  

Since neither candidate gives a rats ass about any of the issues affecting me, I have no reason to vote this round.   Besides, it'd be a pointless risk for jury duty when all I'd be doing is writing in "Mickey Mouse" again.

This high school mentality shit is getting rather tiring.  If someone doesn't share your views, attacking them won't make either side come to any understanding.  If this were a verbal discussion, it probably would've been reduced to a shouting match by now and the weight of an argument isn't gauged by insults or decibels.  

That's where my "alleged education" comes into play.  Looks like some of us lucked out in the dumpy in-state colleges after all.

[El Gallo]

I am waiting for Boog to step it up to #2.

[Boogaleeboo]

He's not really giving me much to work with. He gave up on life. What can you say to that?

[Big Gulp]

Anther Crybaby looking for a handout.

I worked 70 hours a week in the summer Running a Jackhammer to pay college tuition.  One of my roommates worked as a Breakfast cook Full time while he purused his Triple Major undergraduate degree, and he now has his PHD.

You, my friend, sold your soul, when you didn't have to, for personal gain.  Congrats!!

[Vanilla Ice]Word to your motha.[/Vanilla Ice]

Or hey, instead of being a whiny bitch about how your parents can't pay for school you can always get your Uncle to pay for it.  Try serving your country; free healthcare, school largely paid for, and a life experience that very few of this current self indulgent generation have any more.

There are ways to get school paid for.  You can either work your ass off and go to school at the same time or give something back to your country.  Higher education isn't something that's owed to you, and having a comfortable life isn't an entitlement.  Welcome to adulthood.

[Alkiera]

I'm explaining that not everyone has the same opportunities as some and that, for those will come after us, there's a need for changes so they won't have as hard a time

See, people tend to look at past adversity in two different ways.  One group looks at it as a horrible experience that they shouldn't have had to go through; the other group looks at it with pride as a time they overcame the obstacles in their way.

This has nothing to do with starting conditions, both groups exist among the rich and poor alike.  Both groups did manage to get through the time of hardship.  The thing is, the former tend to look for ways to avoid such difficulties, and ways to allow others to avoid such things.  Whereas the latter tend to look for ways to push themselves through the difficulties, and occasionally will head straight towards a difficulty with the knowledge that it'll be tough, but that they will grow in the process... They also work to help others achieve, not by removing the difficulty, but by changing their attitude about adversity.

While all that is a mouthful, it's often easier to attach names, like 'pessimist' and 'optimist', or 'liberal' and 'conservative', to these positions.  There are other meanings behind these words, but different attitudes about adversity are core issues that seperate the sides.

--
Alkiera

[Rasix]

There are ways to get school paid for.  You can either work your ass off and go to school at the same time or give something back to your country.  Higher education isn't something that's owed to you, and having a comfortable life isn't an entitlement.  Welcome to adulthood.

Or you can do what I did, nearly max out a credit card and take enough student loans to having you absolutely swimming in debt.  I didn't work one hour while school was in session my entire undergrad.

Work your summers and presto you've got a master's degree. It wasn't pretty, but it was effective.

[Krakrok]

the system works just fine and the millions of people who aren't getting the adequate medical attention or advanced education to allow them a level playing field with the rich kids is due entirely to their stupidity.

You want free health care? You can:

A) Move to Canada.
B) Move to a town on the Mexican side of the border and use US hospitals for free. They'll even send an ambulance for you.


I'd also point out that the majority of the richest people in the US are not college graduates.

[Merusk]

Toss in some pseudo-class-warfare tripe, along with a conspiracy theory about why Bush ever got into office, and the admission that you don't like any alternatives.....and in all due respect, you make a fine case for yourself as being a babbling nitwit.

I always get a kick out of how antagonistic those who have already 'gotten theirs' react when people point out things that state they didn't bust their ass as hard as they thought.

Lemme guess? Inheritence? some minority scholarship? parents involved in the school board or PTA?

I fail to see how beating down those who point out flaws in a failing system will help anyone.  By your justification: the system works just fine and the millions of people who aren't getting the adequate medical attention or advanced education to allow them a level playing field with the rich kids is due entirely to their stupidity.  ....Spoken like a true rich kid: "I've got mine, what's your problem?"

I'm not whining about how hard I had it or that I was denied the same opportunities as those born with a silver-spoon up their ass, I'm explaining that not everyone has the same opportunities as some and that, for those will come after us, there's a need for changes so they won't have as hard a time as many of the people this time around.

Everyone has the same opportunity. Some people just have more of a leg up, so they start closer to their goal and have to work less. No, it's not fair, but that's the system.  Life itself isn't fair, humans aren't fair-minded creatures, and Socialism doesn't work. There will always be haves & have-nots.

Before you delve into the asanine, baseless class labeling, I'm not a rich kid with a silver spoon up my ass.  My parents made 30k and had to support 4 kids with that money.  30k wasn't a lot of money, but it was too much for government assistance beyond a few hundred in pell grants.

I still went to school, still got an education, and I wasn't 'forced' to steal to do so.  Like Rasix I never held a job while classes were going, due to the requirements of my major.  But I had a place to live, food to eat and graduated. Summer internships & debit are wonderful things.

And before you call me a conservative, I usually think DV is a wongminded twit with narrow vision. Yet I find myself agreeing with everything he said to you.

[El Gallo]

I'm explaining that not everyone has the same opportunities as some and that, for those will come after us, there's a need for changes so they won't have as hard a time

See, people tend to look at past adversity in two different ways.  One group looks at it as a horrible experience that they shouldn't have had to go through; the other group looks at it with pride as a time they overcame the obstacles in their way.

The only people I have ever met in the second group are people who have never faced serious adversity.  I've heard people say "you know, I'm glad my parents never bought me a car when I was 16 because it got me to appreciate the value of money and working hard, and I think that's a valuable experience other people should have."

I have not heard anyone say "you know, I'm glad my parents were alcoholic fucks who beat the shit out of me every day and kicked me out of the house when I was 14 for a week while I slept in a cardboard box hoping the vagrants wouldn't rape me.  That made me appreciate the value of good family life, and I think that's a valuable experience other people should have."

People like to pretend they face adversity, because Horatio Alger myths are what legitimize success in our society.  But, by and large, they don't like real adversity.

Everyone has the same opportunity. Some people just have more of a leg up, so they start closer to their goal and have to work less.

I don't really want to get into an equality of opportunity argument, but these sentences don't make any sense to me.  3 sprinters who start 50, 100, and 150 meters from the finish line don't have the same opportunity to win that race.

[DarkDryad]

Toss in some pseudo-class-warfare tripe, along with a conspiracy theory about why Bush ever got into office, and the admission that you don't like any alternatives.....and in all due respect, you make a fine case for yourself as being a babbling nitwit.

I always get a kick out of how antagonistic those who have already 'gotten theirs' react when people point out things that state they didn't bust their ass as hard as they thought.

Lemme guess? Inheritence? some minority scholarship? parents involved in the school board or PTA?

I fail to see how beating down those who point out flaws in a failing system will help anyone.  By your justification: the system works just fine and the millions of people who aren't getting the adequate medical attention or advanced education to allow them a level playing field with the rich kids is due entirely to their stupidity.  ....Spoken like a true rich kid: "I've got mine, what's your problem?"

I'm not whining about how hard I had it or that I was denied the same opportunities as those born with a silver-spoon up their ass, I'm explaining that not everyone has the same opportunities as some and that, for those will come after us, there's a need for changes so they won't have as hard a time as many of the people this time around.

Simply voting for Candidate X who opposes Candidate Y's views is absolutely pointless.  It's hard for rich, middle-aged white men to even fathom the life of those not within their own microcosm (further proven to a degree by the attacks in this forum. Your profile says "golf" as an interest. 'nuff said).

Sure, you could write-in a 3rd party but we all know that's a wasted vote.  

How can someone make a difference without voting for one of those two morons?  Simple: get the issues advertised enough to make the populace angry enough about to bitch for a long enough time to get a feigned sincerity about said issue by one of the reptiles puting on a show for the media/polls.  Then, and only then, would voting actually work.  

Since neither candidate gives a rats ass about any of the issues affecting me, I have no reason to vote this round.   Besides, it'd be a pointless risk for jury duty when all I'd be doing is writing in "Mickey Mouse" again.

This high school mentality shit is getting rather tiring.  If someone doesn't share your views, attacking them won't make either side come to any understanding.  If this were a verbal discussion, it probably would've been reduced to a shouting match by now and the weight of an argument isn't gauged by insults or decibels.  

That's where my "alleged education" comes into play.  Looks like some of us lucked out in the dumpy in-state colleges after all.

Newsflash..... Life ISNT FAIR!! omg FILM AT 11:00

Duse seriously you have major issues. Everything you have listed and blame on "the man" keeping you down can directly be attributed to you or a choice you made. So you had a hhard time getting into and paying for school. How many grants/student loans did you apply for? Scholarships?? If your grades were the problem here guess who that reflects on?? You hoss.

[Dark Vengeance]

those who have already 'gotten theirs' react when people point out things that state they didn't bust their ass as hard as they thought.

*snip*

Lemme guess? Inheritence? some minority scholarship? parents involved in the school board or PTA?

*snip*

Spoken like a true rich kid: "I've got mine, what's your problem?"
 
*snip*

aren't getting the adequate medical attention or advanced education to allow them a level playing field with the rich kids

*snip*

those born with a silver-spoon up their ass

*snip*

It's hard for rich, middle-aged white men to even fathom the life of those not within their own microcosm

*snip*

Your profile says "golf" as an interest. 'nuff said.

*snip*

Besides, it'd be a pointless risk for jury duty when all I'd be doing is writing in "Mickey Mouse" again.

*snip*

This high school mentality shit is getting rather tiring.

*snip*

That's where my "alleged education" comes into play.  Looks like some of us lucked out in the dumpy in-state colleges after all.

This is probably my favorite post ever. You know jack shit about me son, but you're quick to label me as a "rich boy" who already "got his"....an assessment predicated on the fact that I list golf as one of my interests. You're wrong....and I particularly enjoy that you have this automatic assumption that everyone who disagrees with you and calls you a whiny pussy is automatically a rich kid who wants to deny you or anyone a chance at success.

Please refute that a completely destitute homeless man can walk into any ER in the country and receive emergency medical care if needed. That is to say nothing of any other programs or clinics that aim to provide healthcare and preventive care to those who cannot easily afford it.

Please refute that community colleges can provide relatively affordable educational opportunities, and that financial aid programs including grants, student loans, and scholarships exist to provide additional opportunities to folks that cannot easily afford college.

Please refute that there were avenues for you to avoid starvation that did not require theft.

Please refute that you are ultimately responsible and accountable for your own actions.

Please refute that there is not a way for you to make a positive change in the US political process without actually taking in part in it.

Bring the noise.
Cheers............

[schild]

Res, pick your fights better. This one was fucking stupid.

Everyone else, you know better than to pick on the new guy. You know he doesn't know better.

[Nebu]

I think we all pretty much agree that Kerry is running on the "I'm not Bush" ticket or the "I'm like Bush only not-as-bad".  The question remains: will this work for him?  It worked for Clinton, but let's face it... Kerry doesn't have the charisma that Clinton had/has.  

Personally, I think Bush needs to set a course for the Iraq mess and give a state of the union address letting America know where he's heading.  I also think that Bush would help his cause by soliciting some opinions from the world community (even if he chooses not to follow them like he has been) prior to the election.  

The feeling I get from the "man on the street" is that most people are voting the party ticket because neither of these guys has really come out with a clear and concise strategy for the future.  They're both full of political rhetoric, but neither seem to have a plan.

EDIT: There, I'm on topic... happy Schild?

[personman]

Well if nothing else Kerry has performed yeoman work just getting Bush back closer to something more proximate to the center.  A moderated Clinton was pretty powerful and preferable to what we'd have seen with the Dems controlling the government to the degree we see the GOP currently.

Not that it will last more than a few weeks after the election but that's the fun part - watching folks get pissed off because "their guy" performed true to his past record rather than adhering to the blather he spewed to get elected.

[Nebu]

Not that it will last more than a few weeks after the election but that's the fun part - watching folks get pissed off because "their guy" performed true to his past record rather than adhering to the blather he spewed to get elected.

Very true.  The sad part is the fact that no matter who wins the election, they'll still have a hard time enacting any policy changes due to the lack of concessions from either side in the house and senate.  The polarity of the two party system in this country seems to be almost counterproductive in our efforts to change current political mechanisms.  I think this was stated by some of our non-American counterparts earlier in the thread.

It is good to see that at election time both of these guys seem to be shifting more to the middle.  I just doubt that they'll stay there long once elected.  I actually have more faith in Kerry remaining near the middle than Bush... but that's purely opinion.