First Impression: Hour 1

[Murgos]

I'm pretty sure I recall that at the time 3dfx cards were known to have superior performance in openGL as compared to the ati cards, glide support was bonus for those games that went through the trouble to support it.

[Kageru]

I'm pretty sure that when the Voodoo was king ATI cards weren't even in the running for 3D. Thankfully WoW runs on mac, which means it supports OpenGL, which means it will run on linux. Any anything that means I don't have to boot windows is a good thing.

[Murgos]

You don't remember too well, Voodoo was first by a good margin but ATI followed pretty quickly with the rage chipset and NVIDIA had the RIVA.  Those cards were out WELL before you absolutely had to have a 3d card.

[Cyraxx]

anything that means I don't have to boot windows is a good thing.

Yeah, cuz who needs an interface and finished applications, when you can just type in 600 character long commands in your console, and code whatever is missing from the application you are trying to use yourself?

/sarcasm off

[Kageru]

All the tools I use are more advanced in linux, isn't diversity sweet? And my memory of early video card history may well be flawed, I remember having an obsessive lust after a voodoo having seen the difference it made.

"ATI's Rage 128 captured the interests of gamers that had previously never thought of ATI as a serious contender in the 3D gaming arena. It delivered everything a gamer, as well as a regular user, could ask for in a single card. So why are we not all using ATI Rage 128s right now?"

/shrug, whatever, all dusty relics fit only for the bin now.

[Trippy]

I'm pretty sure I recall that at the time 3dfx cards were known to have superior performance in openGL as compared to the ati cards, glide support was bonus for those games that went through the trouble to support it.

Sort of. The Voodoo and Voodoo 2 cards only supported a "miniGL" wrapper which translated just enough of the OpenGL calls to Glide to support the Quake-engine games. But Glide was so efficient that even with the extra translation the cards ran fast. ATI's consumer OpenGL drivers have always sucked which is why ATI cards typically benchmark noticibly slower compared to equivalent NVIDIA cards on OpenGL games. If I remember correctly, NVIDIA was the first to come out with a robust OpenGL driver that fully supported the OpenGL spec for consumer 3D cards.

[AOFanboi]

Yeah, cuz who needs an interface and finished applications, when you can just type in 600 character long commands in your console, and code whatever is missing from the application you are trying to use yourself?

Of course the fact that Unix had a mature GUI (X11) before DOS must itch, but why open yourself for the argument that the powerful shells available there beat the "do I use % or %%?" pile of crap that was command.com?

I guess 600 character command lines are alien to someone using a DOS shell limited to 256 characters. Then again, with the 8+3 filename restriction you perhaps didn't need so much.

[Kageru]

Ancient history now, not as if Unix users are still forced to use the command line, but choice is always nice to have. Lost interest in advocating Linux years ago, when it was actually a challenge.

Incidentally Unix had the "W" windowing system even earlier, and a display postscript windowing system like the mac has now. Not sure if the xerox alto ran unix or could go back even further.

[Cyraxx]

It's true that Unix is better than DOS, and that the linux operation systems in general were way ahead back when everybody used DOS.

But that have no relevance now.

Fact is there is not a single distribution of Unix / Linux (especially not Unix) that is even close to WindowsXp when it comes to interface and userfriendlyness. Not even by a far shot.

In the wast majority of Linux distributions you still have to use the command line, because not all functionality is implemented in the graphic interface. That = the suck.

Noone gives a rats ass about the Linux core being 5.674 % faster then the Windows core when one has to study the piss poor documentation for 8 hours just to find out how to copy a file.

[Big Gulp]

Noone gives a rats ass about the Linux core being 5.674 % faster then the Windows core when one has to study the piss poor documentation for 8 hours just to find out how to copy a file.

Ding ding ding!  UI has always been, and will always be, an afterthought in open source OSes.  The backend can be uber efficient, and it won't matter because no one in their right mind wants to live in a command line universe anymore.

[Sky]

Fact is there is not a single distribution of Unix / Linux (especially not Unix) that is even close to WindowsXp when it comes to interface and userfriendlyness.

Mac OSX.

And yes, I'm quite aware that OpenGL and GLide are two different, yet related, things. No impact on my statement. A Voodoo5 would run openGL like a mofo, and had very nice image processing for its time. If it weren't for the little issue of not being able to make a voodoo6 card with less than 4 gpus (iirc, the v5 had dual gpus in it).

[AOFanboi]

Fact is there is not a single distribution of Unix / Linux (especially not Unix) that is even close to WindowsXp when it comes to interface and userfriendlyness. Not even by a far shot.

In the wast majority of Linux distributions you still have to use the command line, because not all functionality is implemented in the graphic interface. That = the suck.

Noone gives a rats ass about the Linux core being 5.674 % faster then the Windows core when one has to study the piss poor documentation for 8 hours just to find out how to copy a file.

*shudder* That is so far removed from reality that I wonder how you can keep warm in those far reaches of space.

(All commands are infinitely better documented than in DOS via the "man" pages, practically all modern distros ship with a Windows lookalike window manager you can choose, and it's not like people don't have to learn how to use Windows as well.)

[Big Gulp]

If it weren't for the little issue of not being able to make a voodoo6 card with less than 4 gpus (iirc, the v5 had dual gpus in it).

Yep, it had two fans also and required more power than a standard AGP slot could dole out.  I loved that damned card, and held on to it long after it went obsolote.  I still have it in one of my media machines, but its 3D acceleration isn't really put to use anymore.

[Cyraxx]

Last time i checked Mac OS X didn't run on PCs.

The famous 'man' pages is the piss poor documentation I was talking about, see the cool thing about Windows is that you don't need to read through endless pages of crap, written in a language so technical that only the dusin delusioned nerds that wrote it would understand it, you just hover you mouse pointer over stuff and an explanation appears. Neato.

I have yet to see a graphical interface of a Linux distribution that didn't have buttons whose functionality was missing (!!!??!!), or functionality that simply didn't have a button, thus leaving the shitty console as the only option. And no, Mac OSX doesn't count.

I agree that Linux / Unix was a better option than DOS, but that was 9 years ago. Hell it was better than Windows95.

[Sky]

Ok, I'll just leave you to your nice, cozy, closed mind. Forget I mentioned anything.

[Ookii]

If Sam Kinison was still alive, i'm sure he would call Cyraxx a "Sucker of Bill Gate's cock".

[Big Gulp]

If Sam Kinison was still alive, i'm sure he would call Cyraxx a "Sucker of Bill Gate's cock".

For the most part, I'm with him.  I wouldn't go so far as to not include OS X as Unix because it definitely is, but the parts that everyone wants aren't open source.

I'd love to be able to ditch Windows, but Linux, at least with it's current development methodology, is never going to supplant it.

[Soukyan]

I hate Apple's rip-off hardware prices (built an exact PC version of a G5 for half the price *cough*), but I do like Mac OSX and I like a few applications that were written for it (Shake, Motion, etc.). Since I want to be able to use them, I was on the fence about buying a Mac, but guess what? Fuck Apple. November 25th it's all about CherryOS. Brilliant work.

Yes, I know about PearPC and a couple others that are open source or whatever, but CherryOS is boasting 80% system resource passthrough to the OSX install. PearPC has issues just keeping MacOS running. Anyhow, umm, yeah. I will now be able to use MacOS on my PC for those applications. The only reason MacOS isn't released on other architectures is because the overpriced hardware sales are all that keep Apple in business at this point. Of course, they could bolster OS sales by releasing it for other processor architectures, but they're afraid of the big, bad Windows competition. I can't say I blame them. They need wider application compatibility before that would be feasible.

[Murgos]

I agree that Linux / Unix was a better option than DOS, but that was 9 years ago. Hell it was better than Windows95.

I switch back and forth between solaris or linux and windows all day long.  There are some things that that you can do in a decent CLI that are literally impossible in Windows (without writing a lot of code).  There are MANY things in the application world that are just easier to do and work better in linux or unix.

[Kageru]

Alternatives are good even if you're not using them, shame you're too blinkered and intolerant to see that cyraxx. I can assure you that microsoft would be bending you over and stealing your lunch money if it wasn't for linux being the only threat they can't just buy out. You'd be paying a subscription fee for running windows at this point, and they'd be disallowing any media format they don't control.

But really it's actually sort of interesting that someone elses choice in OS should be an issue...

And in terms of GUI's I like having at least three groups (that I know of offhand) competing with each other to advance the linux desktop.  Competition keeps things exciting.

[Big Gulp]

November 25th it's all about CherryOS. Brilliant work.

Brilliant in the sense that, "Hey we can recompile PearPC and call it our own code!" is brilliant.  It's just a way to sucker people into paying for something they can already use for free and their hype is way overblown.  You're not going to get 80% hardware speed because A) That's always going to be impossible when you're running an emulation layer and B) PearPC only gets at best around a 40th of the speed, and since this is just a snake oil salesman rewrapping PearPC that's what you'll get.

Trust me, dude, it's a scam.

[Cyraxx]

I'm blinkered and intolerant? No. I'm just sick and tired of people bashing Windows for no reason. What it all comes down to is that you cannot argue why Linux / Unix is o so much better. Obviously because it isn't.

My problem wasn't your choice of OS, it was your pointless Windows bashing.

The open source community is not a real threat to Windows anymore, the only way it will be is if IBM realizes their threat of actually making a decent OS from that festering pile of shit that's the Linux / Unix source. If they do that I'll bet anything that any remotely important component will be kept secret, just like Apple has done with OS X, and then it really isn't open source anymore.

[Kageru]

Insecure much?

I just said WoW running on linux would give me one less reason to boot into windows. There's nothing in that which extends outside of the personal. But by all means continue, I find tantrum's to be  an endless source of free net entertainment.

Incidentally, while I hate to introduce facts into such a pointless debate, OS-X is not based on open source, that's why it could be subsumed into a private project.

[Cyraxx]

No that's actually not what you said, you should scroll up and have another look. :p

[Lanei]

I'm blinkered and intolerant? No.
*snip*
My problem wasn't your choice of OS, it was your pointless Windows bashing.
*snip*
...the only way it will be is if IBM realizes their threat of actually making a decent OS from that festering pile of shit that's the Linux / Unix source.

Hypocrite much?

Introducing more of those pesky facts.  IBM pays developers to work on and contribute patches to Open Source projects, like Linux (the kernel) and Apache, for the betterment of those projects.  IBM also ships Linux (the OS) and Apache on some of its enterprise servers, and people buy them.  Now I'm not saying IBM contributing those patches isn't a cynical bid for recognition and community brownie points, cuz it is.  But its still has the net effect of improving the quality of free software available, and thats not a bad thing.

[Alkiera]

Incidentally, while I hate to introduce facts into such a pointless debate, OS-X is not based on open source, that's why it could be subsumed into a private project.

Darwin's home page disagrees with you.  Darwin being the BSD variant that is the core of MacOS X.  The pretty part most people see of OS X is Aqua, which is not open-source, but all it really is is a GUI library, like XWindows, and a number of apps set up to use it.

You can take any mac, or PC for that matter, download OpenDarwin, which is based off the Darwin sources used to build MacOS X's base, and install it to run standalone.  It's just another BSD implementation, more or less, but one that happens to be used by a commercial developer to release a commercial OS.

Alkiera

[pants]

Dear Christ, can we PLEASE not have a Windows vs Linux religious war here?  This is one of the few tech-related websites that has managed to steer clear of this boring waste of bandwidth.

[Kageru]

You're right, I'm wrong. What I should have said was the BSD license allows the software to be used in proprietry development and the developer is not obliged to provide source for changes. The Linux license does not, the developer is required to make the source of their changes available. This is one of the reasons why apple built on top of BSD.

.. but they are both classes as open source licenses, so my sentence made no sense. I tend to assume open source means GPL.

(edit)

I agree with pants. Sorry to have mentioned it even in passing, and barring more errors in what I've already typed won't mention it again.

[Cyraxx]

But but but it's so much fun =x

[Soukyan]

November 25th it's all about CherryOS. Brilliant work.

Brilliant in the sense that, "Hey we can recompile PearPC and call it our own code!" is brilliant.  It's just a way to sucker people into paying for something they can already use for free and their hype is way overblown.  You're not going to get 80% hardware speed because A) That's always going to be impossible when you're running an emulation layer and B) PearPC only gets at best around a 40th of the speed, and since this is just a snake oil salesman rewrapping PearPC that's what you'll get.

Trust me, dude, it's a scam.

Perhaps. But they are apparently confident enough in their product to offer a demo/trial version on that same release day, so I'll do some definitive testing then. I have tried PearPC and it doesn't even give 40%... when it even runs. In their defense, they're only up to version 0.3.1 so they've got a long way to go yet. I'll let you know if CherryOS turns out to be a scam.

[Big Gulp]

I'll let you know if CherryOS turns out to be a scam.

That's okay.  If it turns out not to be a scam I'm sure the skies will open up, the four horsemen will emerge, and Jesus will come down from heaven to judge the living and the dead.

[Soukyan]

I'll let you know if CherryOS turns out to be a scam.

That's okay.  If it turns out not to be a scam I'm sure the skies will open up, the four horsemen will emerge, and Jesus will come down from heaven to judge the living and the dead.

Har har! Prepare for judgement day.

[Righ]

Windows is a toy operating system suitable for running games, and this discussion is pointless. OS wars belong in Politics '04.

[HaemishM]

Please take your nerd slap fight over Linux vs. Windows out of this thread, kthx.

On a related to the actual fucking topic note, I finally upgraded my home PC to WinXP this week. EQ2's performance shot up dramatically over Win98SE, to the point where 98 should not even be fucking supported. Night and fucking day performance.

Granted, the game still ran like shit with lots of players in the zone. You know, like at prime time in any city zone. But hey, it was much better looking and performing when that wasn't the case.

Guess what? The game was STILL boring. From the limited experience I have with it, this game's honeymoon has about 1 month for dedicated EQ vets, and 2 months for not-quite-burned-out-yet people. For most of us, I don't give it two weeks.

[Big Gulp]

For most of us, I don't give it two weeks.

One weekend was enough for me.  I could see where this was headed, and I figured I'd get off the SS Catass before it reached it's destination.