Mythic-EA shuts down Warhammer beta, tells players to come back later

[shiznitz]

I'm sorry, do you think that if you look like a priest but are actually a warrior you won't get owned?

Or is this some form of reverse ganking?

I'd adapt either way, I just think it'd be a poor method of making a fantasy MMO based on class distinctions. Would make for some interesting stuff though. Couldn't pre-target the healer, since everyone would like a healer.

You know what'd be awesome though? Is that if every class had a fighting chance against any other class, assuming you didn't suck ass at it.

This system would probably just homogenize the entire player base into wearing "generic armor A" to avoid giving anything away. In outdoor PvP in WoW you can already do this by using noggenfogger or some such. However these items are not usable in arena. Why? Because if they were, every serious arena team would make them required. What the hell is the point of making unique and interesting item models if everyone uses a generic camouflage system to hide them all the time?

By the way, what game are you basing this PK avoiding strategy on? I'm going to guess UO. Get ganked much?

That post is better. How players costume their characters is irrelevant to whether or not the PvP is fun. You seem to agree. That was not apparent in the previous post.  

Yes, the only free-for-all PvP game I have played is UO and I got ganked occasionally and did some myself pre-emptively. Poison kryss ftw!

Your point about "generic" becoming the fashion is a fair one, but I believe vanity would outweigh that by a large factor for most players. The point is to give players the choice to look however they want to look and not force them to look a certain way to be competitive, i.e. the best gear you have is the gear everyone sees.

[WayAbvPar]

Although I do agree, I'd rather not be fighting people who look like priests but hit like warriors.

This reminds me of the dev commentary for TF2 where they talk about how important it was to see an enemy and instantly know what class it is, I totally agree, having appearances that don't match capabilities would be a big turnoff for me in any pvp mmo.

I call bullshit. Yes, it is nice to be able to tell with a look but only because that is what you are used to. It also makes it easier for PKs to pick their marks because class X will usually beat class Y so class X will look for class Y to the exclusion of all others. If one cannot tell the target's abilities, it makes the attacker - who ALWAYS has the advantage - less comfortable. This would be a good thing. 

Bottom line, if the game is good, you won't care.

I like it. I loved that I could dress in any number of ways in UO and still be effective with my character. Even just having robes that cover armor would be a start.

[Mrbloodworth]

Although I do agree, I'd rather not be fighting people who look like priests but hit like warriors.

This reminds me of the dev commentary for TF2 where they talk about how important it was to see an enemy and instantly know what class it is, I totally agree, having appearances that don't match capabilities would be a big turnoff for me in any pvp mmo.

I call bullshit. Yes, it is nice to be able to tell with a look but only because that is what you are used to. It also makes it easier for PKs to pick their marks because class X will usually beat class Y so class X will look for class Y to the exclusion of all others. If one cannot tell the target's abilities, it makes the attacker - who ALWAYS has the advantage - less comfortable. This would be a good thing. 

Bottom line, if the game is good, you won't care.

I like it. I loved that I could dress in any number of ways in UO and still be effective with my character. Even just having robes that cover armor would be a start.

SWG Precu. Clothing didn't matter, and wearing armor hurt things as well as helped. It was wonderful.

/runs

[bhodi]

This reminds me of the dev commentary for TF2 where they talk about how important it was to see an enemy and instantly know what class it is, I totally agree, having appearances that don't match capabilities would be a big turnoff for me in any pvp mmo.

Something i think planetside excelled at.

Wait, what? It was impossible to judge what the capabilities of your opponent in planetside was. You could be specc'd and react in any number of different ways; What
armor they were wearing told you little about what weapons they had or what their reaction was.

You could be facing an engineer in heavy armor, equipped with nothing but ACEs and a pistol, or you could have a soldier who preferred light armor because of the mobility. With the medium armor, they could be carrying literally any weapon, could be specc'd for and have the jackhammer, MCG, lancer -- all behaving very differently and requiring different tactics. Even with infiltrator, they could be a melee type, a grenade type, an ACE type, or just a guy who's trying to sneak in to hack a vehicle.

In fact, the only thing you could quantify on sight was the power armor and vehicles.

[Stephen Zepp]

This reminds me of the dev commentary for TF2 where they talk about how important it was to see an enemy and instantly know what class it is, I totally agree, having appearances that don't match capabilities would be a big turnoff for me in any pvp mmo.

Something i think planetside excelled at.

Wait, what? It was impossible to judge what the capabilities of your opponent in planetside was. You could be specc'd and react in any number of different ways; What
armor they were wearing told you little about what weapons they had or what their reaction was.

You could be facing an engineer in heavy armor, equipped with nothing but ACEs and a pistol, or you could have a soldier who preferred light armor because of the mobility. With the medium armor, they could be carrying literally any weapon, could be specc'd for and have the jackhammer, MCG, lancer -- all behaving very differently and requiring different tactics. Even with infiltrator, they could be a melee type, a grenade type, an ACE type, or just a guy who's trying to sneak in to hack a vehicle.

In fact, the only thing you could quantify on sight was the power armor and vehicles.

Actually not true (although it did take pretty solid visual recognition skills)--weapons especially didn't disappear when not equipped--they were strapped to your back. You could visually recognize all of the armor levels, and of course if you had the recognition skills and game knowledge, make decent estimations of what their "non-visual" skills were based on the gradiation of color schemes for battle ranks.

It wasn't easy, but you could absolutely know what a character was about based on his gear. Of course, sometimes you didn't get enough time to actually do anything about it--but sometimes you did. As a max for example, I could tell a decimator as soon as I walked around a corner, and as an NC max, that meant I immediately stopped firing, hit my shield, and started backing away.

[AcidCat]

Something i think planetside excelled at.

Very true, each side was visibly (and audibly) distinct. (and as Zepp points out above, weapon loadout was usually fairly obvious too, each weapon had a distinct look and sound, as well as of course the different ranks of armor)

And like I've said before I think the 3 faction pvp is the way to go.

Bah, PlanetSide did so many things right, I wish it would have been a bigger success ... we might have actually seen a sequel in the works.

[bhodi]

I was never close enough to figure out what was on a guy's back when he was running towards me or crouched on a hill. What was in his hand, occasionally, but by then generally it was too late.

I, too, wish for planetside part 2. Done right. With infinite respecs (or maybe double the points given) to mesh with a squad on a moment's notice. The most fun I had in that game was the 7 day trial where you could respec.

[Mrbloodworth]

This reminds me of the dev commentary for TF2 where they talk about how important it was to see an enemy and instantly know what class it is, I totally agree, having appearances that don't match capabilities would be a big turnoff for me in any pvp mmo.

Something i think planetside excelled at.

Wait, what? It was impossible to judge what the capabilities of your opponent in planetside was. You could be specc'd and react in any number of different ways; What
armor they were wearing told you little about what weapons they had or what their reaction was.

You could be facing an engineer in heavy armor, equipped with nothing but ACEs and a pistol, or you could have a soldier who preferred light armor because of the mobility. With the medium armor, they could be carrying literally any weapon, could be specc'd for and have the jackhammer, MCG, lancer -- all behaving very differently and requiring different tactics. Even with infiltrator, they could be a melee type, a grenade type, an ACE type, or just a guy who's trying to sneak in to hack a vehicle.

In fact, the only thing you could quantify on sight was the power armor and vehicles.

I dont like using the word "Power" when refering to abilitys and rank in planetside, becouse thats not really the case, so ill try not to use it here.

First, Each empire is color coded. There are 3 groups of two, each empire has two colors, primary and secondary.

With in each empire, each Ranks changes the over all mix of the teo colors, gaining rank would make the secondary color become more prominent. This includes MAX amour.

Each empires armor (or avatar) also has a unique silhouette, this also includes MAX units.

Every player (Depending on amour) has two back slots for rifles, and two holsters for pistols or equipment, They always appear on that player (As Stephen said). Only exception is something carried in the backpack.

Carrying this theme even farther to vehicles, each empires Specific vehicles, had a unique silhouette, and color. The exception here, is common pool vehicles..in this case, color is the differentiating feature.

Comand rand also followed this pattern, as you gain ranks in Command, you gain attachments, all the way up to a backpack.

This is also carried on to Bases, and towers...

Also, Battle rank 23+ is all about differentiating look. You can immediately tell that a all black, no helmet, maybe a hat and glasses has more battle experoiance (Not referring to the XP bar, but Time played) then another, and will be a high threat. Very rarely do you see someone who isn't actively seeking those ranks attain it, unless they have just played forever and a day..Its somewhat rare, as the push to 25 is long.

I could go on, and this dosn't even include sound.

Now, none of this has anything to do with power, or skill (as in gun +1)..Because PS doesn't work this way.. But you can gather from the things above, Empire, and Battle experience, potential threat, just at a glance...

[Venkman]

I actually like the idea of a robe caster pulling out that world-exploding fire hitting hammer. Ya get a light flavor of that in WoW right now with the Engineering class. "Say hello to my little friend" type thing with the Rocket Launcher, or that flame throwing totem (love that thing, expensive to make if your Mining is stuck at 250 because you hate the idea of visiting Un'guro again :) ).

I agree that this could be a problem, but only in the context of games where fights are arbitrarily determined by rock-paper-scissors. I hate that noise, and thankfully it's not the case in normal pitched PvP. But then, my idea of normal does not include Arenas. Separate topic.

Without repeatable entertaining content and everyone looking the same, my motivation to keep playing any game is... what exactly?

Sorry I had you pegged wrong Phunked. Glad this topic went deeper.

What you don't seem to like of WoW is the type of repeatable game they (Raid, tag-team PvP, objective-based PvP). That is fairly typical of the genre. Every game offers something at the end to keep people who don't want to leave winnings or friends behind. But then that's why most friends travel in groups between games if they can.

I'm biased. WoW PvP is fun, but it's not engaging enough in how I like my PvP. I the above arbitrary rules are a turnoff. I prefer TF2 and COD2 (for different reasons, obviously)

But 2 solid years in any game is good. Who's going to be playing Bioshock in two years over a similar number of hours? Great game, limited run. Time to take a break. Your whole guild should take 4 weeks off, bounce around other stuff. Sometimes it reminds what you liked about what you left. Other times it helps broaden your scope.

[Kaa]

I actually like the idea of a robe caster pulling out that world-exploding fire hitting hammer.

I know a guy who used to hang out in Thidranki with his Lurikeen warrior dressed in something caster-y. :D

Kaa

[Salamok]

then there was diablo 1 where your caster could wear full plate.

[BigBlack]

Again, Phunked, I basically like what you like.  But the type of game you and I like is only nominally similar to the type of experience WoW is trying to provide.  If WoW succeeded at providing that experience, in a broad way, it would fail the people who are actually its target audience.  I'm being overly broad, I know, but I think this is accurate in a general sense.

[Phunked]

I agree, if it was what I wanted, it would be much less of a commercial success.

It'd also be (arguably) more fun and a better game.

Also, my guild is pretty much taking the rest of the year off (the new raid instance, Zul Aman is tuned to be easier than the current end game, and the next end game raid won't be around for at least 2 months), and screwing around. The difference is, some of us might never come back.

[Righ]

Being able to look different in an MMOG is a worthwhile feature, particularly when you stick the letters RP into the acronym. Its not especially immersive to have everybody running around in near identical gear, looking the same and having a floating name above their heads as the only means of identity. That said, my biggest problem with the WoW format is not visual customization, but attribute/skill customization. Every level 70 Orc warrior has the same base attributes, the same skills, and if they raid, will end up in the same attribute modifying gear. Talents are a fairly small morsel by RPG standards. Choosing how to build a character is part of the 'explorer' thing that appeals in these games - looking up gear on a web site and repeating the required content until /random works out for me, not so much.

[Chenghiz]

The reason I'm burned out is that whereas pre TBC raid content was somewhat challenging technically (read 4 Horsemen) current raid content was completely cleared in 4 months. Thats 60-hi2u dead Illidan in 6 months. And all this was done for a miniscule gear advantage (especially given the new loot being added in the recent patch). There isn't a carrot anymore. We actually caught up and ate it.

Maybe this should be a separate WoW thread for this but I totally disagree with your statement. The new content was consumed so much faster because people who raid are better now than they were when they were starting 1.0 content. It's a lot harder for Blizzard to come up with something that's challenging for raiders now because they know all the gimmicks and have beaten them to death.

[Simond]

Fourth MMO. I'm burned out because for the last 2 years with my guild, I and everyone else have had 90% raid attendance . Top 5 of every boss kill since BWL or something. And we're currently bored (I know, I know, bleeding edge guild beats game and quits from lack of stuff to do. Story at 11).

The reason I'm burned out is that whereas pre TBC raid content was somewhat challenging technically (read 4 Horsemen) current raid content was completely cleared in 4 months. Thats 60-hi2u dead Illidan in 6 months. And all this was done for a miniscule gear advantage (especially given the new loot being added in the recent patch). There isn't a carrot anymore. We actually caught up and ate it.

Which is really depressing since other games -still- have mechanics that promote motivation to keep going. For example DAoC is still somewhat fun.

Without repeatable entertaining content and everyone looking the same, my motivation to keep playing any game is... what exactly? At the same time, after I beat HL2:2, I still have untold hours of TF2 to keep me occupied. See the difference? ($40 CAD for 200+ hours of pew pew or $400 CAD over 2 years for.....)

Hopefully WAR will at least have PvP that doesn't suck. Or something. Yes the scripted encounters are a fun puzzle the first time. But the puzzle is sufficiently easy, and there are so few of them that the game runs out of content, and not even for the bleeding edge. We were a month ahead in progression of the closest guild on our server, and they and one other have already gotten to Illidan, killed him and had 50% of their raiders quit. MMOs are supposed to be enormous timesinks. That's WHY I play them. A timesink is only good when it you know, sinks your time.

IIRC, according to WoWjutsu the percentage of players that have killed Illidan is still under one percent. The problem with the raiding end-game in TBC isn't "There isn't enough of it", it's "There's too much of it which isn't accessable to most raiders". There's a brick wall somewhere in-between the early raids and BT/Hyjal, and it's keeping most of the ~20-25% of the playerbase that actively raids away from the TBC end-bosses.

The various Tempest Keep (etc.) changes in 2.3 will help, and I suspect that BT and/or Hyjal will also be tuned downwards in 2.4, when the Sunwell goes live.

[Kirth]

Fourth MMO. I'm burned out because for the last 2 years with my guild, I and everyone else have had 90% raid attendance . Top 5 of every boss kill since BWL or something. And we're currently bored (I know, I know, bleeding edge guild beats game and quits from lack of stuff to do. Story at 11).

The reason I'm burned out is that whereas pre TBC raid content was somewhat challenging technically (read 4 Horsemen) current raid content was completely cleared in 4 months. Thats 60-hi2u dead Illidan in 6 months. And all this was done for a miniscule gear advantage (especially given the new loot being added in the recent patch). There isn't a carrot anymore. We actually caught up and ate it.

Which is really depressing since other games -still- have mechanics that promote motivation to keep going. For example DAoC is still somewhat fun.

Without repeatable entertaining content and everyone looking the same, my motivation to keep playing any game is... what exactly? At the same time, after I beat HL2:2, I still have untold hours of TF2 to keep me occupied. See the difference? ($40 CAD for 200+ hours of pew pew or $400 CAD over 2 years for.....)

Hopefully WAR will at least have PvP that doesn't suck. Or something. Yes the scripted encounters are a fun puzzle the first time. But the puzzle is sufficiently easy, and there are so few of them that the game runs out of content, and not even for the bleeding edge. We were a month ahead in progression of the closest guild on our server, and they and one other have already gotten to Illidan, killed him and had 50% of their raiders quit. MMOs are supposed to be enormous timesinks. That's WHY I play them. A timesink is only good when it you know, sinks your time.

IIRC, according to WoWjutsu the percentage of players that have killed Illidan is still under one percent. The problem with the raiding end-game in TBC isn't "There isn't enough of it", it's "There's too much of it which isn't accessable to most raiders". There's a brick wall somewhere in-between the early raids and BT/Hyjal, and it's keeping most of the ~20-25% of the playerbase that actively raids away from the TBC end-bosses.

The various Tempest Keep (etc.) changes in 2.3 will help, and I suspect that BT and/or Hyjal will also be tuned downwards in 2.4, when the Sunwell goes live.

They put a gateway fight in, its KT. There have been various numbers thrown around about how many guilds are stuck at that one fight. I think  sometimes about how they balance accessibility with the feeling of accomplishing something. 2.0 Gruul, Hyrdoss, Magtheridon were all entirely too hard for their position in progression where they were as the 2.1 Black Temple was too easy, in both cases people were defeating the content but in both cases they retuned it. They had a long keying process for SSC/TK entry and then removed it. I'll put money that theres a memo somewhere in Blizz headquarters with a bell graph and approximate time-lines on when to open each raiding tier to the masses.

[Phunked]

Fourth MMO. I'm burned out because for the last 2 years with my guild, I and everyone else have had 90% raid attendance . Top 5 of every boss kill since BWL or something. And we're currently bored (I know, I know, bleeding edge guild beats game and quits from lack of stuff to do. Story at 11).

The reason I'm burned out is that whereas pre TBC raid content was somewhat challenging technically (read 4 Horsemen) current raid content was completely cleared in 4 months. Thats 60-hi2u dead Illidan in 6 months. And all this was done for a miniscule gear advantage (especially given the new loot being added in the recent patch). There isn't a carrot anymore. We actually caught up and ate it.

Which is really depressing since other games -still- have mechanics that promote motivation to keep going. For example DAoC is still somewhat fun.

Without repeatable entertaining content and everyone looking the same, my motivation to keep playing any game is... what exactly? At the same time, after I beat HL2:2, I still have untold hours of TF2 to keep me occupied. See the difference? ($40 CAD for 200+ hours of pew pew or $400 CAD over 2 years for.....)

Hopefully WAR will at least have PvP that doesn't suck. Or something. Yes the scripted encounters are a fun puzzle the first time. But the puzzle is sufficiently easy, and there are so few of them that the game runs out of content, and not even for the bleeding edge. We were a month ahead in progression of the closest guild on our server, and they and one other have already gotten to Illidan, killed him and had 50% of their raiders quit. MMOs are supposed to be enormous timesinks. That's WHY I play them. A timesink is only good when it you know, sinks your time.

IIRC, according to WoWjutsu the percentage of players that have killed Illidan is still under one percent. The problem with the raiding end-game in TBC isn't "There isn't enough of it", it's "There's too much of it which isn't accessable to most raiders". There's a brick wall somewhere in-between the early raids and BT/Hyjal, and it's keeping most of the ~20-25% of the playerbase that actively raids away from the TBC end-bosses.

The various Tempest Keep (etc.) changes in 2.3 will help, and I suspect that BT and/or Hyjal will also be tuned downwards in 2.4, when the Sunwell goes live.

They put a gateway fight in, its KT. There have been various numbers thrown around about how many guilds are stuck at that one fight. I think  sometimes about how they balance accessibility with the feeling of accomplishing something. 2.0 Gruul, Hyrdoss, Magtheridon were all entirely too hard for their position in progression where they were as the 2.1 Black Temple was too easy, in both cases people were defeating the content but in both cases they retuned it. They had a long keying process for SSC/TK entry and then removed it. I'll put money that theres a memo somewhere in Blizz headquarters with a bell graph and approximate time-lines on when to open each raiding tier to the masses.

Going to quote and reply to both of you.

First of all, I'd argue that for the bleeding edge guilds, around the time of the end of AQ40, things like ideal DPS rotations, min/maxing of gear and situational awareness were already pretty well set in stone. Even still, Naxx was a difficult instance because almost every fight had the complexity of Vashj/Kael/Illidan. Yes they had gimmicks. But these were all multifaceted gimmicks. I know that it's starting to sound like a broken record, but Naxx really was their best raid instance ever. It didn't even have that much trash. Yes, I know holy shit Batman. But I digress. The difference between the hardcore and the casual raider is the fact that in the hardcore raid guild, your 25 core people all show up for every raid. Casual guilds rotate people in and out much more. The percentage of people who killed Kel'Thuzad was probably even lower than the 1% who killed Illidan. Most of the semi-casual raiding guilds were around the Twin Emps in AQ40 by then. The reason that these fights usually cockblock these guilds is because you need to have everyone learn their part and do it. Let me compare two t4 level bosses.

Gruul: simple. DPS him hard, heal the tank and the OT and when he shatters move from people. Not very hard to pick it up, even if you've never been there before.

Mag: somewhat more complicated. First, kill the channelers in order, while controlling infernals and interrupting heals/volleys. Then click cubes (all 5 at the same time), don't click too early or too late, as well as avoiding the fire patches, the rocks and the 30% transition.

For Mag, your cube clickers will need a couple runs of practice. For some guilds, by the time their cube clickers will have learned what to do, their night is over. The next time they come back, they might have 2-3 new clickers and the process starts all over again.  This, in my opinion, is what is preventing casual progress. This is more of an issue in 25 man raids than in 40 man raids, because now each of your raiders is "worth" more than previously. 1/40 can slack off and just tag along for a while. 1/25 makes it a lot harder, especially on enrage timer bosses.

In regards to nerfing/unnerfing/"tuning" content, the way Blizzard has almost always done it is to overtune a particular boss when they didn't want people killing him/her. Classic example: Gruul pre-nerf. At that time, the kara gear was worse than current blue sets. And gruul was substantially less forgiving with shatter. In fact, for almost every single guild, it was next to impossible and not worthwhile. When they finished optimizing SSC and TK, they "fixed" gruul. Similarly, Vashj was not killable (without soulstoning the raid) before BT and Hyjal were ready for testing. No wonder she respawned immediately after the world fist Nihilium kill. She was never intended to die. Similar precedents exist: C'Thun, 4 Horsemen, Rag, etc.

I'll return again to the notion that everyone already knows the gimmicks and that we're going to plow through it because we've seen it before. The Kael'thas fight has no "new" gimmick besides maybe the gravity lapse, which is essentially spreading out in 3-D. However the level of complexity in that fight is largely above and beyond every Hyjal boss (including Archimonde) and every Black Temple boss except maybe Reliquary of Souls and Illidan  himself. This is why people claim that the first couple of bosses in BT/Hyjal are "reward loot". This is largely because, compared to Kael, they're very straight forward. This isn't an issue in "we've seen the gimmick before" (although, yes, we have) but more that there isn't much more to it than the one-dimensional aspect.  I'm not saying that every boss should have 129 phases and 43 different transitions, but could they at least come up with something more creative than "this boss will place a large burning thing of fire/death/ice/whatever on the ground. Your raid must move. At some point, a large amount of damage will be done to your raid from some pulsing AoE or whatever. Healers must heal. Also, we have a chain lightning of death. Spread out"  Move, heal raid, spread out. Oh and, has an enrage timer.

Again, maybe this is my problem with scripted PvE. You can only script so much. But I'm really hoping that at some point, someone makes something new.

[Righ]

The new content was consumed so much faster because people who raid are better now than they were when they were starting 1.0 content.

Did you manage to keep a straight face while typing that?

[Kaa]

It's a lot harder for Blizzard to come up with something that's challenging for raiders now because they know all the gimmicks and have beaten them to death.

That's a path very well trodden by EQ...

Kaa

[Vinadil]

I wonder how a "Competitive" dungeon raid would look... especially on a mostly PVE world like WoW.  Just off the top of my head I am thinking of a Raid that you enter much like the Arenas, IE you zone in and it matches your raid with another.  The "point" is to be the first one through the content.  If you kill a boss before the other side then their's just disappears.  Basically that would allow each boss to be a new "Match", and losing one boss might actually give you the advantage for the next depending on the dungeon. 

Perhaps the drops would be different/better, or Blizz could just create a new Faction of UberRaiders Competition and give prizes there.  But, it would create something New that would add a form of Competition vs. other real humans.  That is why Raiding dies to me.  I can only get excited about beating the NPC people once.  After that it is something I do while watching TV or feeding my kid her bottle.

[Kaa]

The "point" is to be the first one through the content.

Speedrunning?

Nah, a proper competitive raid would be the boss in a room in the middle and the two competing raids, fully PvP enabled, dropped into corridors on the opposite sides of the boss so that you are forced to have a three-way fight. That's likely to be fun :D

Kaa

[Simond]

Tangent: This thread truly has everything - started off with the Next Big Thing being delayed & generalized EA-hate, moved on to World PVP vs Battleground PvP vs PvE (with a side order of worldy game vs gamey world), and we're now doing Hardcore Raiders vs 'Casual' Raiders vs small groups.

Next up: Web2.0 flash MUSHs as the future vs Diku+ v4 as the future. :-D

[Mrbloodworth]

Tangent: This thread truly has everything - started off with the Next Big Thing being delayed & generalized EA-hate, moved on to World PVP vs Battleground PvP vs PvE (with a side order of worldy game vs gamey world), and we're now doing Hardcore Raiders vs 'Casual' Raiders vs small groups.

Next up: Web2.0 flash MUSHs as the future vs Diku+ v4 as the future. :-D

And now Pie.

[Salamok]

I wonder how a "Competitive" dungeon raid would look... especially on a mostly PVE world like WoW.  Just off the top of my head I am thinking of a Raid that you enter much like the Arenas, IE you zone in and it matches your raid with another.  The "point" is to be the first one through the content.  If you kill a boss before the other side then their's just disappears.  Basically that would allow each boss to be a new "Match", and losing one boss might actually give you the advantage for the next depending on the dungeon. 

I'm thinking Emperor in EQ.

[Mrbloodworth]

I wonder how a "Competitive" dungeon raid would look... especially on a mostly PVE world like WoW.  Just off the top of my head I am thinking of a Raid that you enter much like the Arenas, IE you zone in and it matches your raid with another.  The "point" is to be the first one through the content.  If you kill a boss before the other side then their's just disappears.  Basically that would allow each boss to be a new "Match", and losing one boss might actually give you the advantage for the next depending on the dungeon. 

I'm thinking Emperor in EQ.

I am thinking PvMP in LOTRO. No matching, but there are PvE and PvP goals and targets all in one. LOTRO rainds only support 24 people max, but the PvMP has no such restrictions, and i was in a battle larger than that the other night, ill say about 30 each side i think, all fighting MOBs that were guarding the capture point, of course, i was helping the MOBS, as i was using my spider. I know its not quite the same, but its close.

[Venkman]

I'm thinking Darkness Falls in DAoC which, iirc, did exactly this. Semi-competitive PvP with those token things you collected to buy stuff. WoW AV is something like this except is has a specific end condition.

[eldaec]

I'm thinking Darkness Falls in DAoC which, iirc, did exactly this. Semi-competitive PvP with those token things you collected to buy stuff. WoW AV is something like this except is has a specific end condition.

Darkness Falls was high level PvE, but only one realm had access to it at a time, determined by realm pvp achievements (holding keeps).

The only pvp that went on down there was players who hung around after a control change (only the realm controlling the DF portals could enter DF, but players could stay down there after a change until they died and released)


It was a neat mechanic, though in post-shrouded-isles-Daoc the dungeon just turned into a mining operation.

Kill mobs, get tokens, sell tokens to crafters for cash.

Crafters bought armour with tokens, salavaged armour for materials, then the material is sold to npcs for cash or used in crafting real gear.

[Venkman]

Right, yea, thanks for jogging the memory. On my server (whatever it was) I think Albion had it 90% of the time. I'll tell ya, since DAoC, I hadn't really seen a game so impacted by arbitrarily split factions, until WoW.

No matter how wonderful something looks on paper, you either have the resources to do all sides equally good, or you really shouldn't enforce an unrecoverable split. It took years for WoW to achieve some sort of parity, and they had a bottomless pit of cash and time to draw from, relatively.

[Chenghiz]

The new content was consumed so much faster because people who raid are better now than they were when they were starting 1.0 content.

Did you manage to keep a straight face while typing that?

If you are having trouble understanding what I meant, read down a bit. It's a perfectly justifiable statement.

[tazelbain]

In addition, we’ll be making changes to the RvR (open field RvR FTW!) and Server Rule Set Systems. These changes bring WAR a step closer to fulfilling the promise that “War is Everywhere” while ensuring a great play experience for those that do not choose to engage in RvR 24x7. This is another example of how EA Mythic talks to the community, listens to what they have to say, and takes action. We will continue this process over the next three quarters as we continue to develop, expand and improve WAR.

So open PvP servers?  RvR focused servers?

EDIT: Also WAR release pushed to Q2 

[Montague]

In addition, we’ll be making changes to the RvR (open field RvR FTW!) and Server Rule Set Systems. These changes bring WAR a step closer to fulfilling the promise that “War is Everywhere” while ensuring a great play experience for those that do not choose to engage in RvR 24x7. This is another example of how EA Mythic talks to the community, listens to what they have to say, and takes action. We will continue this process over the next three quarters as we continue to develop, expand and improve WAR.

So open PvP servers?  RvR focused servers?

EDIT: Also WAR release pushed to Q2 

Not surprising considering how long they are shutting down beta. While Mark has said they were always planning on shutting it down, I don't think they were planning on changing as much as they are.

[Arthur_Parker]

Different server rulesets is how you please everyone all the time.

[Venkman]

It's also how you automatically increase your dev team size as you chase multiple bugs specific to different rulesets. I'm not against different ruleset servers per se. It's worked in the past and could here. It just isn't something you flip a switch on though.

[Mrbloodworth]

It's also how you automatically increase your dev team size as you chase multiple bugs specific to different rulesets.

QFT, you effectively have a different client for each rule set.

Interview with Mark Jacobs and CEO John Riccitiello. ( <---MMORPG.com Site Warning.)

CEO John Riccitiello:

“Frankly, this is a pretty straightforward situation, and I want to emphasize to the team at Mythic: No, we are not having you be part of our re-structuring. That's not the plan. We are investing in the growth of that studio. Warhammer's [push-back story] is a simple one: they missed part of a milestone. Mark [Jacobs, EA Mythic VP] came forward and said that it would affect quality if he held the March date. We made the decision with the big investment we've got behind it and frankly the talent and inspiration of the team to invest behind quality. We gave them a little bit more time, a little bit more money and we think we're going to have a little bit more of a hit on our hands. So… simple. So, you're safe Mark.”