Mythic-EA shuts down Warhammer beta, tells players to come back later

[Chenghiz]

Personally I think a better approach is user customizable colors (armor die) combined with a greater variety of armor models and maybe some user customization available to the model itself.  In PvP I don't want to engage something that looks like a tank and turns out to be a squishy either.

This sounds great but honestly I really really don't want to see what 5000 other people think is cool. There's enough gear choice in a game like WoW for a player to be unique to a degree without looking generic, without sacrificing the information (class, spec, gear level) someone else gains just by looking at them. And honestly I like what I've done to mold how my character looks. It's not just a matter of showing off my shiny purplez, it's a matter of showing the result of the process of playing rather than the result of what my ultimate idea of cool is. It has meaning within the game in multiple ways.

[WindupAtheist]

There's enough gear choice in a game like WoW for a player to be unique to a degree without looking generic

What?

[Venkman]

Everything you said supports the notion of player choice. I'm not advocating non-raiders get the same stat benefits from gear. I'm just saying that the ability to have a coordinated outfit that looks good and unique should not be restricted to those with the most time investment, who buy and large aren't raiding for their look anyway.

e-peen!=look.

[Chenghiz]

I was really addressing Salamok more than you, Darniaq. I agree with you. And WUA, what I said wouldn't be true if people could get the most optimal whatever there is for their character. In a lot of cases there is such an item, but the differential lies in the fact that whether or not a players gets it is dependent on whether they have access to that content, and whether it happens to drop for them. Additionally even at 70 there is a wide range of gear available in WoW to someone at any level of content access that is viable.

[Venkman]

Hehe and I was writing that post TO Salamok. Looks like I missed "few more posts written since yuo started replying" thingy :)

[eldaec]

Again, we're mostly talking about a WoW problem that has been solved before and after WoW.

CoX do it by having costume entirely unrelated to gear. (though they are introducing more and more unlockable parts, giving you more opportunities to show off how awesome you are with costume parts - but still not relating it to effectiveness in battle)

DAoC and many other games did it by allowing you to change the colour of each individual piece, so shape = driven by gear, colour = driven by player. I'd like more opportunities to add symbols and shapes to gear, but other than that, this system seems to work pretty well.

There's enough gear choice in a game like WoW for a player to be unique to a degree without looking generic

Ahem, I disagree with what you said.

[Chenghiz]

There's enough gear choice in a game like WoW for a player to be unique to a degree without looking generic

Ahem, I disagree with what you said.

You make a convincing point.

[Merusk]

There's enough gear choice in a game like WoW for a player to be unique to a degree without looking generic

Ahem, I disagree with what you said.

If you're min/ maxing and doing the top-end Raiding/ PvP thing you're correct.  Chances are you'll look similar to every other member of your class doing the same thing.   If you're content to just level-up slowly and use effective (but not "DA BEST") gear while doing so, or when grinding at L70, then you're incorrect.

My priest looks very different from every other priest - regardless of spec- in her dps gear.  In healing stuff, yeah, she's Generic_Female_Human_0054.

But then you're just hating on MMOs in the entirety lately, and have almost gotten to the "worthless post" point.

[WindupAtheist]

Even if you're not in the best uber gear, you still just look like whatever the best gear is you've managed to get.  I don't just want to have slightly different shoulder pads and thus be "unique", I want to be able to look how I want to look.

[Salamok]

lets agree to disagree. 

I want to be able to judge another players ability (by ability I mean game experience not fashion sense) by looking at them.  This helps me in PvP and to a lesser degree when forming a PuG.

You seem to want to see a bunch of fops running around putting on a fashion show. 

UO sort of had this problem solved with dyes and the ability to endlessly layer clothing.  Of course due to the paranoid PvP environment everyone just went for a true black cloak that hid all teh shinies that were fairly prone to getting stolen.

[shiznitz]

What I really like about the EQ2 system is that even though berserkers are plate tanks, I can dress him in leather (red leather to be exact) that has a more berserker look to it. I have a few red plate items from raiding that I also keep visible (by not equipping anything in the corresponding appearance slot.)

There has also been a good unintended consequence from the appearance system. Some of the trash loot items have interesting looks. This used to be sold to a NPC for 3-6g. Now, players can sell it to other players for 25g+ because level 70s don't want to farm level 30 mobs to accumulate a full set of purple/black/red chainmail while level 30 players are stumbling upon the stuff (useless as actual gear) in the course of there normal gaming.

[Merusk]

lets agree to disagree. 

I want to be able to judge another players ability (by ability I mean game experience not fashion sense) by looking at them.  This helps me in PvP and to a lesser degree when forming a PuG.

You seem to want to see a bunch of fops running around putting on a fashion show. 

Which would be why he still is playing UO.

Item-centric games will have some degree of 'sameness' to them. It's just a given.  You can alleviate that with Dyes - if you develop your textures for them, or (I imagine) do some fancy color layering in your game engine so you can make that Black item look propery white. Eq1 didn't do this, and black items turned an ugly grey if you tried to dye them.

 Blizzard doesn't do either, and doesn't want to.  They've said as much on that because they feel it compromises the overall style of the game.  I can't argue there, and it's not a big deal if you're approaching it from a 'game' standpoint.  I don't bitch that I can't have neon purple armor in BG2, or that I can't have my Kratos avatar running around in a clown outfit either.

If you're looking at things as a World, yeah I can see why it matters.  However, I still stand by my "virtual worlds suck, no thx" stance there.   Still, those of you looking for that might want to start praying that Simutronics gets off their butt and actually comes out with Hero's Journey sometime.  They promised this to be one of their features.

Even if you're not in the best uber gear, you still just look like whatever the best gear is you've managed to get.  I don't just want to have slightly different shoulder pads and thus be "unique", I want to be able to look how I want to look.

And you can, so long as you don't care too much about color.  I don't wear the 'best i've got' for my DPS crap on my priest.  No point, I can kill stuff naked provided I've got enough mana pots, so I wear what I think looks good.  I did the same thing on my hunter until I ran out of bank space.  Blood Knight greens (level 63 gear) FTW.

[Bunk]

I equip my WoW characters based on what looks cool on them. As a general result, no one will group with me. I'm positive that that is the only reason...

There are a lot of different factors in what attracts people to MMoGs, and customizing your character is only a small part of it. The proliferation of things like costume contests in CoX, the viability of Tailors in SWG in the days where clothes were only cosmetic, and the insane Neon Retards in UO are all proof that there is a large demographic out there that want thier characters to look unique.

[BigBlack]

Item-centric games will have some degree of 'sameness' to them. It's just a given.

I think this cuts to the heart of it.  It does seem like the two sides here are sort of talking past each other -- probably because they want to play fundamentally different games.

[Xanthippe]

I love finding outfits to wear.  It's funny too, because in real life I basically wear tshirts and jeans, not put together outfits.  But in games?  I want to wear what I want to wear.

I really wish there was an option to re-tailor goods into an outfit that suits me.

With regard to what kind of gear someone wears in pvp - I'd rather not know from their gear.  More fun that way.

[Venkman]

Not sure anyone who's played WoW for any period of time would think even the world drops have a "generic" look them :)

At the same time, uniqueness is not going to come for those in the same gear with a simple color shift, particularly with all the foozles and gleamies and whatnot that comes in later levels.

As Merusk said, there's going to some sameness in an item-centric game. Even UO had it. But the graphics were so rudimentary that even just a color shift changed it radically.

Sameness isn't just based on items. It's based on choice. How many UOers ran around with an orc helm or deer antlers? Not everyone needs an SL-amount of options handed to them at every turn. In fact, there's been some studies that show having too many choices is a turn off. Sameness is also based on actions. I don't care what clickies and foozles you're wearing, chances are the role you chose as a class or for an encounter are going to be the primary identifier of your avatar.

For DIKUs, EQ2's system is a good compromise.

[Fordel]

I don't buy the thing about the look of loot showing what spec/abilities a class has in WoW.


All the PvP shoulders for each spec/set of gear look exactly the same. Show me the visual difference between say, Healing priest Arena Shoulders and Shadow Priest Arena shoulders.

Or Feral, Balance or Resto shoulders on a druid.


The only place where having a visual recognition of what a class spec/talents are in WoW, is the one place where everyone is exactly the same and it is impossible to tell what spec a class is from looking at their armor.

[Phunked]

The fact is  in WoW you are your gear. I'm a MT for an Illidan guild. I can assure you of this: I am not a better tank now than I was 6 months ago.

No really. Aside from doing the fights once and being like "oh, so that's what [insert unique boss skill] looks like. I guess I should use [some class ability] now" I haven't really gotten any better. I use the same theorycraft and skill rotation - it's changed a couple times when Blizzard buffed/nerfed/screwed over part of my gear or spec but I don't consider my reaction to this as me getting better. Seriously, even in PvP, the strategies aren't unique, original or have very sophisticated counters. There isn't even any real test of reaction time. Global cooldown limits how fast you can act and if you can't figure out what skill to use in 1.5 seconds, given that you have like 5 options, I question how you are capable of making the money required to pay for the damn game. Take any 2 people with the capacity to attend a university/college/whatever the fuck you call it in America and they can figure out the right stuff to do in damn near any situation. The fact of the matter is, the game is easy and the only limit on your progression is your gear. Hell, the gear limits how much you can do of anything. And given the razor thin margins on which you're doing (progression) content, a competent raid team either has the right stat total to do the fight or they do not.

With so much focus on gear, no wonder everyone looks the damn same end game. Yes there are alternate items to use. But once you have access to everything that same min/max attitude that LET you kill the bosses will now drive you to use the best possible set up for whatever situation. Because if you aren't doing it, you aren't progressing. I don't like this, because I don't want to look exactly the same as my offtank, the warriors in the other guilds on the server and literally every -single- other warrior in T6. For my warlock alt, if I had a choice in the matter I' still be wearing a hat I got from a level 30 something class quest. It looked badass. But since I don't want to suck ass I'm stuck in tier 5, which looks like some 12 year old's anime goth fantasy. I mean really, these people look like they have fireballs exploding out of their eyeballs every time they blink. Everyone is running around with weapons the size of planetary fragments and shooting fireworks every second. The only way to separate yourself now is to use an item that has 20x the polygon count of the rest of your model. If at some point someone could fix this issue, I'd stop complaining.

Until then, fuck you Blizzard.

[sam, an eggplant]

So what you're saying is that you don't like games where advancement is governed by time /played. I agree. Player skill is the way to go.

It's not like that there's no skill involved at the raid level, though. Each boss is a puzzle to be solved. Not necessarily a difficult puzzle by any means, but at the very peak of the raid progression, before tactics are spoiled in forums and spoiler movies with german metal soundtracks, clever subtitles, and detailed diagrams posted to filefront, there's actual gameplay to be found for raid leaders at the top of the game. Problem is that only applies to a vanishingly small percentage of total players.

[Venkman]

Jeez, a complaint about raids being repetitive and DIKUs being about gear?

What year is this?

:)

I agree Raids require skill. After you figure it out though, it requires less skill from the folks that follow :)

[Triforcer]

So what you're saying is that you don't like games where advancement is governed by time /played. I agree. Player skill is the way to go.

Umm, no.  Chess is bad for the bottom line because unskilled people will never succeed.  Half the people will always be below average.  Measuring advancement by time played is a quid pro quo with the untalented: put in the time and your lack of twitch ability and/or IQ points doesn't matter.     

[Merusk]

Jeez, a complaint about raids being repetitive and DIKUs being about gear?

What year is this?

:)

I agree Raids require skill. After you figure it out though, it requires less skill from the folks that follow :)

From his post in the WoW board, Phunked is simply burnt-out and placing all the blame for it on one particular game, without the realization that playing it like he did is what burns you out.  :-D

[Venkman]

That makes sense. We all did it with our first MMO. I just find it funny that it can still happen here. :)

[Phunked]

Fourth MMO. I'm burned out because for the last 2 years with my guild, I and everyone else have had 90% raid attendance . Top 5 of every boss kill since BWL or something. And we're currently bored (I know, I know, bleeding edge guild beats game and quits from lack of stuff to do. Story at 11).

The reason I'm burned out is that whereas pre TBC raid content was somewhat challenging technically (read 4 Horsemen) current raid content was completely cleared in 4 months. Thats 60-hi2u dead Illidan in 6 months. And all this was done for a miniscule gear advantage (especially given the new loot being added in the recent patch). There isn't a carrot anymore. We actually caught up and ate it.

Which is really depressing since other games -still- have mechanics that promote motivation to keep going. For example DAoC is still somewhat fun.

Without repeatable entertaining content and everyone looking the same, my motivation to keep playing any game is... what exactly? At the same time, after I beat HL2:2, I still have untold hours of TF2 to keep me occupied. See the difference? ($40 CAD for 200+ hours of pew pew or $400 CAD over 2 years for.....)

Hopefully WAR will at least have PvP that doesn't suck. Or something. Yes the scripted encounters are a fun puzzle the first time. But the puzzle is sufficiently easy, and there are so few of them that the game runs out of content, and not even for the bleeding edge. We were a month ahead in progression of the closest guild on our server, and they and one other have already gotten to Illidan, killed him and had 50% of their raiders quit. MMOs are supposed to be enormous timesinks. That's WHY I play them. A timesink is only good when it you know, sinks your time.

[Salamok]

The only place where having a visual recognition of what a class spec/talents are in WoW, is the one place where everyone is exactly the same and it is impossible to tell what spec a class is from looking at their armor.

My point wasn't to find out their spec but to find out their class.  I do not want a 2nd paper doll of "visual outfits" where a warrior can dress up to look like a priest but still gain all the benefits of his nonvisual tier5 plate.

[Phunked]

The only place where having a visual recognition of what a class spec/talents are in WoW, is the one place where everyone is exactly the same and it is impossible to tell what spec a class is from looking at their armor.

My point wasn't to find out their spec but to find out their class.  I do not want a 2nd paper doll of "visual outfits" where a warrior can dress up to look like a priest but still gain all the benefits of his nonvisual tier5 plate.

The server sends class information back to the client. It is relatively easy (and completely legal) to use a mod to reveal this, whether by coloring the nameplate or using an icon or whatever. Although some people object to mods, this could easily be made a part of the default UI -  a small icon near the portrait indicating the class.

Although I do agree, I'd rather not be fighting people who look like priests but hit like warriors.

[AcidCat]

Although I do agree, I'd rather not be fighting people who look like priests but hit like warriors.

This reminds me of the dev commentary for TF2 where they talk about how important it was to see an enemy and instantly know what class it is, I totally agree, having appearances that don't match capabilities would be a big turnoff for me in any pvp mmo.

[shiznitz]

Although I do agree, I'd rather not be fighting people who look like priests but hit like warriors.

This reminds me of the dev commentary for TF2 where they talk about how important it was to see an enemy and instantly know what class it is, I totally agree, having appearances that don't match capabilities would be a big turnoff for me in any pvp mmo.

I call bullshit. Yes, it is nice to be able to tell with a look but only because that is what you are used to. It also makes it easier for PKs to pick their marks because class X will usually beat class Y so class X will look for class Y to the exclusion of all others. If one cannot tell the target's abilities, it makes the attacker - who ALWAYS has the advantage - less comfortable. This would be a good thing. 

Bottom line, if the game is good, you won't care.

[Numtini]

If all you need is the ability to disginguish classes, stick a big icon on top of them.

[Phunked]

Although I do agree, I'd rather not be fighting people who look like priests but hit like warriors.

This reminds me of the dev commentary for TF2 where they talk about how important it was to see an enemy and instantly know what class it is, I totally agree, having appearances that don't match capabilities would be a big turnoff for me in any pvp mmo.

I call bullshit. Yes, it is nice to be able to tell with a look but only because that is what you are used to. It also makes it easier for PKs to pick their marks because class X will usually beat class Y so class X will look for class Y to the exclusion of all others. If one cannot tell the target's abilities, it makes the attacker - who ALWAYS has the advantage - less comfortable. This would be a good thing. 

Bottom line, if the game is good, you won't care.

Would kill the immersion factor hardcore.

See a guy in robes, you're thinking caster.

Guy in robes pulls out a giant, world exploding, firework shooting hammer with spinners and beats your face in.

Am I the only one who would see that as somehow a problem?

[bhodi]

That would be great. It's time to see how quick you can think on your feet.

[shiznitz]

Would kill the immersion factor hardcore.

See a guy in robes, you're thinking caster.

Guy in robes pulls out a giant, world exploding, firework shooting hammer with spinners and beats your face in.

Am I the only one who would see that as somehow a problem?

I read that as "I don't want to get wtfpwned by my victim." Poor you. I thought it was all about skill?

[Phunked]

Would kill the immersion factor hardcore.

See a guy in robes, you're thinking caster.

Guy in robes pulls out a giant, world exploding, firework shooting hammer with spinners and beats your face in.

Am I the only one who would see that as somehow a problem?

I read that as "I don't want to get wtfpwned by my victim." Poor you. I thought it was all about skill?

I'm sorry, do you think that if you look like a priest but are actually a warrior you won't get owned?

Or is this some form of reverse ganking?

I'd adapt either way, I just think it'd be a poor method of making a fantasy MMO based on class distinctions. Would make for some interesting stuff though. Couldn't pre-target the healer, since everyone would like a healer.

You know what'd be awesome though? Is that if every class had a fighting chance against any other class, assuming you didn't suck ass at it.

This system would probably just homogenize the entire player base into wearing "generic armor A" to avoid giving anything away. In outdoor PvP in WoW you can already do this by using noggenfogger or some such. However these items are not usable in arena. Why? Because if they were, every serious arena team would make them required. What the hell is the point of making unique and interesting item models if everyone uses a generic camouflage system to hide them all the time?

By the way, what game are you basing this PK avoiding strategy on? I'm going to guess UO. Get ganked much?

[Salamok]

You know what'd be awesome though? Is that if every class had a fighting chance against any other class, assuming you didn't suck ass at it.

Why even have classes.  I love the rock paper scissors dynamic of class balance and if that isn't the way the classes are going to be balanced then the only reason I can see for having classes at all is to placate the die hard paladin fanatics.

[Mrbloodworth]

Although I do agree, I'd rather not be fighting people who look like priests but hit like warriors.

This reminds me of the dev commentary for TF2 where they talk about how important it was to see an enemy and instantly know what class it is, I totally agree, having appearances that don't match capabilities would be a big turnoff for me in any pvp mmo.

Something i think planetside excelled at.