Spacetime Studios announces: Blackstar

[Venkman]

Oh, I don't think there's implants that give skills. I was talking about the ones that provide the stat boosts so you can learn the relative skills faster.

[Big Gulp]

I'm beginning to think that IP is likely over costly and limiting in what it either allows MMOs to do or allows fans to accept.

Yeah, I have my doubts about how much cachet the Wing Commander game really carries any more.

I'd actually be satisfied with Eve, but without the corrupt developers, and with twitch combat.  The only thing putting me off of Eve is how boring point and click is; I need to juke, jive, and strafe in my space sims.

[tmp]

The only thing putting me off of Eve is how boring point and click is; I need to juke, jive, and strafe in my space sims.

It makes sense for them really, given none of EVE ships you can fly are single seat fighters. It's pretty much naval combat in 3d space, you set course, pick targets and hope your gunners are better than these of other guy, given distance you managed to get. Not much room for strafing and twitch with ships that have few thousand people of crew, few hundred meters length and guns that track separate from hull orientation, over distance of dozens of kilometers.

[geldonyetich2]

I don't think it's a capital ship thing so much as the MMORPG server overhead compensation.  It's *much* easier to keep hundreds of players coordinated when you have them send the server orders and it carries them out.  Sound architecture, but significantly less involving game on the GUI level. 

Not to shoot down EvE.  Though I prefer my games more hands-on, many people have found adequate game in the 3rd person tactical methodology there.

[Nerf]

What I don't understand is why somthing like this isn't already out -- It should be FAR easier to put out a space MMO than your standard fantasy/scifi/etc diku.

Terrain? Worlds? It's all fucking space!  A few screenshots from hubble and you've got your world built, now gimme a ship and a quest to kill some fucking boars damnit!  Space boars!

[pants]

Whilst not exactly MMORPGish, I'm still looking for an upgraded version of the XWing/Tie Fighter/ XvT series from the mid-late 90s.  Add in netcode that doesn't suck and XvT II would be fantastic.  If you want serious money hats, release it on XBox live.  Sitting in your lounge room blowing up Xwings over broadband internets?  Thats got whole wardrobes of money written all over it.

[geldonyetich2]

Last I heard, the diamond gold standard of that genre is still the Descent: Freespace series.  After that, things sort of fizzled out, so the genre is in a 7 year slump.  There might be some decent obscure console titles.  Jedi StarFighter is reasonable.  Project Slipheed looks good, but I hear that controls were way too obtuse.

[Simond]

On a side note, my other big gripe is that they followed the same route as shadowbane in that system/stations controlled by corporations could only be visited by members, on pain of death.  I want somebody to make one of these empire building MMO's were there is a free flow of people between empires.  IE, I'm not a member, but my small corp (or just you for that matter) can set up shop in that empire to do my own thing (maybe have an open citizenship that means you also pay annual taxes).  The ruling corp sets all the tax rates and laws, manages the economy, and fights against the other ruling corps with there standing army (heh, and maybe you could force draft citizens of the empire in times of war (like, turn the pvp flag on between them and the opponent) as a side price for citizenship).  It gives it a multilevel approach to governing and economy like the real world.  Actually making your empire a friendly place for small corps to do business, resulting in higher tax revenue and potential talent recruitment.  I always felt really restricted not being able to go see other peoples cities in Shadowbane, so it would also help for explorers.

You can do all of this in EVE, it's just that people have figured out that giving random people free access into your territory & facilities is (eventually) identical to giving your enemies free access into your territory & facilities.

EVE has two basic 0.0 methodologies:
* Not Blue, Shoot It (NBSI) - If it's not an alliance member or an ally, kill it.
* Not Red, Don't Shoot (NRDS) - If it's not a declared enemy, leave it alone.

There are very, very few NRDS alliances in game because, in the long run, it just doesn't work. It's partially the tragedy of the commons, but mostly that NRDS leaves you wide open, from a security point of view.

OTOH, if your corp/alliance is willing to negotiate with a NBSI alliance, positive faction standings can be set and you're good to go (with the caveat that whoever owns the space now knows who you are, where you're flying out of, and that you have to be on best behavior otherwise they'll just revoke the standings and leave you trapping in the middle of suddenly hostile space).

[Ratman_tf]

You can do all of this in EVE, it's just that people have figured out that giving random people free access into your territory & facilities is (eventually) identical to giving your enemies free access into your territory & facilities.

Eve is an awesome world-building game, and one of the few titles out there that really live up to the "Massive" part of the name.

I do sometimes wish it weren't so Lord of the Flies though. You get tired having to draw your pistol and wave it at anything that twitches in your general direction...

[Daeven]

Could someone please just make Star Fleet Command as the space bits (with a strategy / resource component) and Alien v Predator in the ship corridors / ground game for the ground pounders to deal with?

That's half of my "if I had the money" MMG right there.

EVE + FreeSpace 2 + Armored Core / AvP = will never get funded

Scary. If I didn't have a day job that's basically what I'd be working on. Come on Washington Lottery! Maybe I could picket Gates's house: 'Your games suck! I can fix that! kthx'

[Venkman]

Doesn't anyone have a trust-fund buddy they could beg $2mil from? 

[Ratman_tf]

I'd prefer to hit the Mega-Millions. (Dream big) 50-100 mil means you have enough for a small MMORPG and no-one to answer to.

Lotto would be a kick-start though.

[tmp]

Doesn't anyone have a trust-fund buddy they could beg $2mil from? 

No fund buddy, unfortunately. Could come up with some mildly pornographic concept art once we're over that hurdle, though. 

[Teleku]

You can do all of this in EVE, it's just that people have figured out that giving random people free access into your territory & facilities is (eventually) identical to giving your enemies free access into your territory & facilities.

EVE has two basic 0.0 methodologies:
* Not Blue, Shoot It (NBSI) - If it's not an alliance member or an ally, kill it.
* Not Red, Don't Shoot (NRDS) - If it's not a declared enemy, leave it alone.

There are very, very few NRDS alliances in game because, in the long run, it just doesn't work. It's partially the tragedy of the commons, but mostly that NRDS leaves you wide open, from a security point of view.

OTOH, if your corp/alliance is willing to negotiate with a NBSI alliance, positive faction standings can be set and you're good to go (with the caveat that whoever owns the space now knows who you are, where you're flying out of, and that you have to be on best behavior otherwise they'll just revoke the standings and leave you trapping in the middle of suddenly hostile space).

As you say though, this is rare.  In any event, I want it to be open to even solo noobs, who don't have a corp to bargain for them.  Build the functionality for this into the game.  Also, make this standard, and something every corp has.  I understand this hurts "security wise", but if it's the same for everybody, then everybody just has to learn to deal with it.  It would add a ton more depth to the economy (I was so sad to get into 0.0 space and find nothing but stations with nothing for sale, and vast empty systems.  Imagine if, you know, there were actually people doing stuff there...), and make the game a hell of a lot more casual friendly.

[UnSub]

EVE is not casual friendly. It's what makes it work for those who play it.

[geldonyetich2]

I don't know about that: the casual players must love a game where they can level up while offline.

It's certainly not a game for the feint of heart, though, what with the possibility of getting instaganked at warp gates by bored PKs and losing days or weeks of credit grinding in the process.

[Teleku]

EVE is not casual friendly. It's what makes it work for those who play it.

And I'm saying it would be way better if it was  .  Eve with the suck removed.  Kind of like WoW being EQ with the hardcore(IE Suck) removed.  You can still keep all the innovative empire building sandbox shit that actually makes the game great.  Just please try to remove the suck (which goes back to other things I mentioned before).

[Simond]

Except the whole point of (non-NPC) 0.0 space is that it's player-owned territory. I mean, what would be the point of fighting for space, doing the brain-meltingly tedious logistics work, shotting POS, etc etc. if CCP comes along at the end and says "OK, now you need to let all those people you just spent six months driving out of this space...back into this space". Why bother claiming space at all, then?

Which reminds me - there's already 0.0 space with (theoretically) free access to all: NPC space. Sure, some alliances claim control over some of those regions but that control is more along the lines of "If we see you in space, we'll shoot you" rather than "We're locking you out of all the outposts...and if we see you in space we'll shoot you".

[Ratman_tf]

Eve can be casual friendly, if you stick to highsec and do missions and mining with the occasional foray into lowsec empire.

And making it more Carebear friendly would "ruin" Eve, but I do think there is a place for a space MMOG similar to Eve, but without the complete lawlessness of 0.0 non-empire, and a bit more robust PvE system. (My dream space MMOG has a game like Galactic Civilizations running in the "background" setting up trade routes and events for the players to experience.)

I think the thing that bites for some people is that Eve is a great game to read about, but only a small section of the player base get to experience the really good world-building stuff.

[Stormwaltz]

I do think there is a place for a space MMOG similar to Eve, but without the complete lawlessness of 0.0 non-empire, and a bit more robust PvE system. (My dream space MMOG has a game like Galactic Civilizations running in the "background" setting up trade routes and events for the players to experience.)

I've wondered if PvE "warfare by proxy" might be workable. Picture an MMG with several NPC empires. Systems on the border between two (or more) are active warfare zones. You can support your side actively by destroying Empire A's warships, weakening their power in the system. You can support your side passively by delivering resources and crafted equpiment to Empire B's stations, allowing them to respawn destroyed warships.

EDIT: When you get the ratio of Empire A to Empire B active ships below a certain ratio, the system is secured by B, and any neighboring systems owned by A become the new battle zones. Get balance by making defense forces more robust (in numbers, initial respawn resources, or simply more powerful ships) the further you press into someone's territory.

Weren't they going to do something like this in EVE?

[ajax34i]

I've wondered if PvE "warfare by proxy" might be workable. Picture an MMG with several NPC empires. Systems on the border between two (or more) are active warfare zones. You can support your side actively by destroying Empire A's warships, weakening their power in the system. You can support your side passively by delivering resources and crafted equpiment to Empire B's stations, allowing them to respawn destroyed warships.

What would be the reward for the players getting involved in this proxy activity?  Cinematics of the win moment, when the NPC's of A obliterate the NPC's of B?  Cinematics of the immediate effect of each boost, seeing the delivered equipment reach its destination?  Watching as the enemy players destroy your NPC's?

Either it's full-on PVP, or the player can't participate directly in the "fun" - the actual war.

[Ratman_tf]

What would be the reward for the players getting involved in this proxy activity?  Cinematics of the win moment, when the NPC's of A obliterate the NPC's of B?  Cinematics of the immediate effect of each boost, seeing the delivered equipment reach its destination?  Watching as the enemy players destroy your NPC's?

Either it's full-on PVP, or the player can't participate directly in the "fun" - the actual war.

Careful defining 'fun' for other people. Don't make me bake bread at you!

I can think of tons of rewards for favoring one NPC side over the other. Different mission chains, faction rewards, etc...

Plus the NPC war itself could spawn all kinds of PvE combat missions. This would also allow casual players the ability to chip in as much or as little to the war effort as they are able to.

[Simond]

Weren't they going to do something like this in EVE?

The next, next expansion patch.

Mind you, they've been saying that for three expansions now. 

[Vinadil]

Yea... it is "in the works", and even that small chance is one of the things that actually keeps me playing.  It will be interesting to see how they handle Empire wars, especially since "race" means so little right now except what skills/traits you start the game with.

[Teleku]

And making it more Carebear friendly would "ruin" Eve, but I do think there is a place for a space MMOG similar to Eve, but without the complete lawlessness of 0.0 non-empire, and a bit more robust PvE system. (My dream space MMOG has a game like Galactic Civilizations running in the "background" setting up trade routes and events for the players to experience.)

I think the thing that bites for some people is that Eve is a great game to read about, but only a small section of the player base get to experience the really good world-building stuff.

Err, that's more or less what I'm talking about, sorry if I wasn't clear.  I'm not saying they should do any of this to Eve itself, since its not built for it, but make a game from the ground up built around it.

It would basically mean not having unrestricted PvP though (which is fine by me) since that's the root cause of the problem I stated.  I'd like to see a game where empires declare war on each other, which flags each side to kill each other (and anybody else that happens to be in each sides territory) until peace is settled in some way, and territory/fees are seized.  Would give alot more meaning and structure to war.  Its just something I would like to see somebody try.

[Ratman_tf]

Err, that's more or less what I'm talking about, sorry if I wasn't clear.  I'm not saying they should do any of this to Eve itself, since its not built for it, but make a game from the ground up built around it.

Np. It did kind of seem like you were advocating this for Eve, and not a new hypothetical game.

It would basically mean not having unrestricted PvP though (which is fine by me) since that's the root cause of the problem I stated.  I'd like to see a game where empires declare war on each other, which flags each side to kill each other (and anybody else that happens to be in each sides territory) until peace is settled in some way, and territory/fees are seized.  Would give alot more meaning and structure to war.  Its just something I would like to see somebody try.

I'm right with you there. 

[Venkman]

I don't know about that: the casual players must love a game where they can level up while offline.

The only choice you get in Eve is how long you want to wait for the next ability to unlock. In almost every other MMO, you have the feeling you can manage that a bit, gain XP faster, grind vs quest, kite vs not, that sort thing. Not so in Eve. You're as removed from actually achieving a new skill almost as much as you are from the ship (before the later game and depending on the type of ship of course).

The most successful casual games, being categorized as "casual" or just being easy-mode MMO, are ones in which players have a direct impact on how the achieve measurable progress in a gaming session.

Eve doesn't have this, but I also don't think it needs it. It's a "serious" game really. People who make it to 0.0 Corp/Alliance stuff, even as a rank grunt, are really into the game. They're the dedicated endgamers of other MMOs except with a fuckload more immersion with the world. Making it easier for more people to get to that point would screw up the social dynamic something fierce. A lot of whiny carebear babies would get all pissy about actually losing their shit in a 0.0 pod. The entire UI and progression is a big "keep out" sign for people who want to kill Orcs to gain rare loot.

And I love killing Orcs and gaining rare loot. I truly don't have the time to be the level of immersed I'd need to be to like Eve.

[Nerf]

Ha! That rare loot just bit reminded me of another thing I absolutely despired about Eve -- adding new guns and stuff didn't actually change my ship model.  If i just spent an assload of cash on a new missile launcher/rail gun/whatever, I want to be able to see it damnit, not just get a .04% damg increase.

[Hoax]

I truly don't have the time to be the level of immersed I'd need to be to like Eve.

Likewise, I have resubbed to EvE many many times, I think about 5 plus 3 free trial runs to convince myself not to.  I only resubbed to WoW once.  I never resubbed to any other MMO title.

-I have tried to enjoy being an independent space-hauler listening to EvE-radio and alt tab'ing to do RL work or just reading books while I travel through systems.

-I have fantasized about being a solo bounty collector in the lowsec areas.

-I enjoyed when we had the f13 corp going.

-I enjoyed launch when everything was fresh and new.

-I have suffered under the yolk of boring mining ops for various corps at times.

-I have flown a Battleship and realized it was so slow that it wasn't much fun, I never really got it into serious combat as I would have been fuggin sad panda if it had gotten pop'd out from under me.

-I have lost many small scale pvp fights with pirates, been pop'd at gates a few times and won a handful of encounters as well.  I remember having a great time hunting pirates with f13 corp and some other people in a system with basically 15 pilots who all wanted to fight but everyone was flitting from various safespot bookmarks to bookmarks hoping to gain a clear shot at winning.

EvE is in my book the hands down best if not only AAA virtual world to date.  I respect EvE's players, devs, content & game vision wholeheartedly.  For that reason alone I'm really looking forward to CCP's Whitewolf game.  At least unlike any other Dev house, they have the balls to pick a vision and fucking go with it.  I hope that wasn't a fluke.

[tmp]

Ha! That rare loot just bit reminded me of another thing I absolutely despired about Eve -- adding new guns and stuff didn't actually change my ship model.  If i just spent an assload of cash on a new missile launcher/rail gun/whatever, I want to be able to see it damnit, not just get a .04% damg increase.

The guns in EVE do vary in appearance, to the point where you can tell their equipment just looking at the ship... but they are pretty small compared to the ship itself so easy to overlook, and lot of people have the turret drawing disabled anyway to keep the lag down.

[Nerf]

Hrm wtf, maybe I accidentally had that shit turned off, because I can distinctly remember upgrading my civilian gattling gun and my model not changing one fucking bit in the hangar.

[Mrbloodworth]

The title of this thread gives me a stiffly, the contents...not so much.

[Tale]

Brandon Reinhart - Was GreenMarine from SWG.

Before that, he was GreenMarine the Unreal Tournament developer (the original 1999 game) at Epic. He was poached by 3D Realms before leaving for the JTL/SWG team. He has a blog. Other devs like his essay called Elements of a System Design Doc.

Even in his late teens he was a well-known Quake/Quake2/Unreal modder who wrote an Object Oriented Programming tutorial for the modding community.

[Lietgardis]

Not to pull the thread back on topic or anything, but here's a new interview with more information on our combat and IP.

[Mrbloodworth]

Not to pull the thread back on topic or anything, but here's a new interview with more information on our combat and IP.

Sounds sexy..... On paper. I have been waiting for a twitch ground and space game for years. Don't fail.