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Author Topic: It pains me to say it, but FFXI has actually improved.  (Read 77038 times)
raydeen
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Reply #35 on: September 25, 2007, 11:42:08 AM

And then there was this Renki shit. I'm sorry. I don't want to play a game with a combat system so involved and convoluted that I have to memorize attach moves in a certain order and ccordinate with the other members of the party just to pull off some uber move. Some might like it but not my taste. I just want to whack the foozle.


*golf clap*    rolleyes

You suck balls.

Yeah, probably. The whole idea just seemed way too complicated and let's face it, we have enough trouble coordinating the action in groups with people we know let alone PUGs. And by the time I quit, I think I knew two other RL friends who played FFXI.

I was drinking when I wrote this, so sue me if it goes astray.
Hoax
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Reply #36 on: September 25, 2007, 11:50:47 AM

The problem is that whole attitude is why we can't have nice things.  You doom us to mindless hit the hotkey when the monster glows bullshit combat systems because anything else is too taxing on the minds of the LCD.

When I want to put my brain on autopilot I read a book or watch some tv/anime or sit around and chitchat w/ friends or drink a beer and watch the sunset.  When I want to be challenged to complete objectives I play games, usually with human opponents so there is the thrill of besting a thinking enemy.

MMO "gamers" simultanously want no challenge and achiever DING!GRATZ goodies.

What is the result?  Predictably games that award people for time spent not actually learning a game system or being good at the game.

Fucking fantastic that..  Doing great things for the medium.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
caladein
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Reply #37 on: September 25, 2007, 12:12:13 PM

I don't think that's it at all.

You can have interesting combat mechanics all you want... if you're by yourself (see fighting games). If you want to do that with other people though, and have it based off of something other then "hit the pretty lights!", you're just asking to get stabbed in the cock (see LotRO, FFXI, EQ2).

I would love it if a game challenged me with awesome group PvP at the same time having me do integral calculus while reciting The Epic of Gilgamesh backwards to unleash massive damage... but that's not going to happen, because that would require X people that can also do that.

"Point being, they can't make everyone happy, so I hope they pick me." -Ingmar
"OH MY GOD WE'RE SURROUNDED SEND FOR BACKUP DIG IN DEFENSIVE POSITIONS MAN YOUR NECKBEARDS" -tgr
Hoax
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Reply #38 on: September 25, 2007, 12:23:37 PM

Quote
You can have interesting combat mechanics all you want... if you're by yourself (see fighting games).

If you play fighting games solo only I'm not even sure I should be talking to you, but lets ignore that part of your post.

FFXI's cockstabs have fuckall to do with renkei, its not a cockstab its an interesting combat mechanic.  The cockstabs were forced grouping, holy trinity class balance, slow leveling and massive death penalties.

I'm sorry if renkei is TOO HARD to be considered a valid mechanic then we should all just go home because apparently there aren't enough people who can do X and X = anything beyond hit the hotkey when the cooldown is up!  4tw!

Yes, it sucked being in groups that couldn't handle renkei, I agree it sucks other people were too stupid and their attitude matched Raydeen's post.  They were content to get 1/3rd the xp/time rate because then thinking wasn't required.  I agree, fuck those people.

But by that logic Guitar Hero shouldn't have hard songs because then you need a friend who isn't a fucking moron of epic porportions to play them with.

Except nobody says that.  Only MMO's get that fucking crowd..

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
raydeen
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Reply #39 on: September 25, 2007, 01:08:40 PM

Ok, I see where you're coming from. But was Renkei really a 'nice thing'? The concept didn't appeal to me. Granted it was way better than the EQ hit auto-attack and wait but it seemed that it crossed into madness. Or maybe I'm just old and wanted something simpler. Right now, CoX and WoW have the best combat systems for me. They're both simple enough that I can grok them but not so simple that I'm going to step away from the keyboard knowing that the fooz will be dead when I get back. Both systems off enough (seeming) action and diversity that I don't feel like it's just an exchange of dice rolling.

And if you didn't get my original spin, I didn't like renkei but did say that some did. So it must be a somewhat valid mechanic. It just wasn't for me. I"m all for innovation but I just didn't see that as fun in an online game. If you did, good for you. It was too much for my brain to handle.

I was drinking when I wrote this, so sue me if it goes astray.
Mrbloodworth
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Reply #40 on: September 25, 2007, 01:26:44 PM

I don't think that's it at all.

You can have interesting combat mechanics all you want... if you're by yourself (see fighting games). If you want to do that with other people though, and have it based off of something other then "hit the pretty lights!", you're just asking to get stabbed in the cock (see LotRO, FFXI, EQ2).

I would love it if a game challenged me with awesome group PvP at the same time having me do integral calculus while reciting The Epic of Gilgamesh backwards to unleash massive damage... but that's not going to happen, because that would require X people that can also do that.


Quote
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Hoax
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Reply #41 on: September 25, 2007, 01:34:52 PM

@Raydeen:
You know, you are too nice.  It makes me feel like more of a dick then usual..

I'd write up a post about why I liked renkei but really it comes down to I feel games should offer a challenge, I expect people to die to mobs I expect fights to actually get my pulse up, not just to sit there eyes half closed tapping 3 hotkey buttons over and over while alt tabbing to my desktop to read f13...

There has to be something between a challenge and The Vision and Brad-flavored Koolaid, it can't be that much of a slippery slope.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
raydeen
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Reply #42 on: September 25, 2007, 01:48:39 PM

@Raydeen:
You know, you are too nice.  It makes me feel like more of a dick then usual..

I'd write up a post about why I liked renkei but really it comes down to I feel games should offer a challenge, I expect people to die to mobs I expect fights to actually get my pulse up, not just to sit there eyes half closed tapping 3 hotkey buttons over and over while alt tabbing to my desktop to read f13...

There has to be something between a challenge and The Vision and Brad-flavored Koolaid, it can't be that much of a slippery slope.

Nah, yer not a dick. I was actually glad someone insulted me. I think you and Ironwood have been the only two to ever call me out on something. I figured nobody ever read anything I said 'cause I know I've said really stupid things and others have gotten quite the bitch slapping just for saying 'hullo'. I feel like part of the show now. I'm so happy! *sniff* :D

I was drinking when I wrote this, so sue me if it goes astray.
caladein
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Reply #43 on: September 25, 2007, 08:57:57 PM

Quote
You can have interesting combat mechanics all you want... if you're by yourself (see fighting games).

If you play fighting games solo only I'm not even sure I should be talking to you, but lets ignore that part of your post.

...

But by that logic Guitar Hero shouldn't have hard songs because then you need a friend who isn't a fucking moron of epic porportions to play them with.

I wasn't too clear, but I meant "by myself" as in "not part of a team/group". Fighters pit two (or more) people, all by themselves against each other, that works fine.

"Point being, they can't make everyone happy, so I hope they pick me." -Ingmar
"OH MY GOD WE'RE SURROUNDED SEND FOR BACKUP DIG IN DEFENSIVE POSITIONS MAN YOUR NECKBEARDS" -tgr
Margalis
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Reply #44 on: September 25, 2007, 10:11:55 PM

FFXI's cockstabs have fuckall to do with renkei, its not a cockstab its an interesting combat mechanic.  The cockstabs were forced grouping, holy trinity class balance, slow leveling and massive death penalties.

FFXI renkei are just doing a special attack 3 to 5 seconds after someone else does one. (And knowing which one to do) They really aren't that complicated and the damage they add is fairly minor in many circumstances. They do make a group more efficient but the difference between a group that does them and a group that doesn't is not very large.

As far as holy trinity, that does not exist any more in FFXI. It used to be that every group needed a white mage, usually a black mage and then a tank but all the options have gotten wider. Red Mage and Summoner can both main-heal as can combinations of other jobs and a variety of jobs can tank. (Hell, my NPC tanked for my group once very effectively) Groups are a lot looser than they used to be in terms of both size and content. Also there is a lot of powerlevelling these days which makes both healing and tanking requirements lower.

It used to be that you could sit around for hours waiting for a white mage but that is not a problem any more. The main problem as a low-level person is that not many other people will be at your level, but if you can find 5 or 6 free people you can often form a party regardless of what jobs they are. The main challenge is not in finding the right combination but just in finding enough free people at your level.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Hoax
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Reply #45 on: September 25, 2007, 10:31:07 PM

At launch the difference between a group with no renkei and a group w/ a good setup was huge.  I would say x2-x4 leveling speed which was huge when normal leveling was painful as shit.  This was super true when you were at a level plateau where the BLM's had just gotten the next damage spell.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
Margalis
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Reply #46 on: September 25, 2007, 11:33:55 PM

BLMs are not that common these days so the ability to do extra damage on a magic burst doesn't matter as much. Also these days because there aren't that many new players you don't often find the really bad groups of yore that would actively lose XP by getting wiped constantly. Typically if you are playing with lower level players you are playing with people raising a subjob, who while far from perfect are not total idiots.

The main bottleneck to XP in FFXI is downtime including death. If you can pull enemies steadily without resting and without dying you are in pretty good shape. And now that powerlevelling is pretty common that isn't hard to do even for average groups. (There are also changes to spells and abilities and signet effects etc. that make this easier, for example smart Red Mages now have essentially infinite MP)

Then newest expansion also introduced some areas that have easier enemies relative to their levels.

One of the trends has been rather than to pull very strong enemies to pull weaker enemies faster. This avoids death better and also requires fewer renkeis and magic bursts to be effective. Against an IT++ enemy a lot of your damage is going to come from magic bursts and renkeis, against a VT to IT enemy it doesn't make as much of a difference. The fact that the lower level areas are less populated also makes this more possible because there is less competition for pops.

In the old days I was in plenty of groups that either lost XP or gained it very slowly, that only happens maybe 2% of the time now.

FFXI is still a punishing game but compared to near launch it is a lot better. Basically there have been a bunch of small changes in both the rules and the player base that have had a cumulative effect.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Kitsune
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Reply #47 on: September 26, 2007, 12:01:49 AM

The 'please come back we miss your money and are such great guys that we won't force you to re-buy the game, honest' deal started up today.  I tried to restore my old character for kicks and because I don't even remember what my old character was, but their web form couldn't recover it.  I was told that it'd be done manually and that I'd hear from someone in five to seven 'business days'.  I hate that term, why can't anyone just say, "Yeah, it'll be about a week."  Don't try to couch time in some bullshit perspective that ignores weekends.
Kitsune
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Reply #48 on: October 03, 2007, 11:36:28 AM

I pulled my first stint as party main healer last night as a white mage, and let me just say: holy shit.  I've played healers since EQ, but I've never been so consistently pressed to keep people alive, and especially not at such a low level.  It's a distinctly uncomfortable sensation to have to sit down in the middle of a fight and pray that the mana comes back fast enough to get off that heal while watching the party's health bars sinking fast.
Reg
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Reply #49 on: October 03, 2007, 03:02:39 PM

White mage is a fun job. And if you're good at it you'll be remembered. Far too many WHM's hate it and just do it because it makes getting a group easier.
Hoax
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Reply #50 on: October 03, 2007, 03:13:10 PM

FFXI was fun hard pve, only game I've ever actually gotten a thril from the pve encounters on a regular basis.  Wasn't enough to keep me subbed by a long shot but they did a way better job then any of the other AAA titles I've played (all of them unless you count SWG) at keeping pve interesting.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
Numtini
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Reply #51 on: October 03, 2007, 07:59:02 PM

I was a WHM and I still spent hours and hours waiting for parties.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
Margalis
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Reply #52 on: October 04, 2007, 12:02:33 AM

I pulled my first stint as party main healer last night as a white mage, and let me just say: holy shit.  I've played healers since EQ, but I've never been so consistently pressed to keep people alive, and especially not at such a low level. 

What level were you and what were you fighting?

Also at low levels these days there is sometimes actually a glut of white mages, especially with power levellers.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Kitsune
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Reply #53 on: October 04, 2007, 04:05:14 AM

I was around level 14 and the party was fighting crabs, bugs, and the occasional goblin in the dunes.  I learned today, however, that the struggles of yesterday were largely due incompetence.  I couldn't find a party so I made my own, grabbing a Warrior, Paladin, and Black Mage to hunt around the same place as yesterday.  It was smooth as silk, despite having two fewer people.  The warrior didn't grab things way above our level and didn't pull the AoE-exploding monsters right next to the mages, the paladin did a fantastic job of holding aggro, the mages paced themselves and never got aggro or ran out of mana.  And since there were fewer of us in the party, we were actually getting more experience per fight despite fighting weaker monsters.  Later on we picked up a fifth person and bumped up to more challenging fights without a problem.  Though by then we'd all leveled at least twice, so that was toning down the difficulty somewhat.

By the end of the evening I broke 19 and got halfway to 20, much faster than I'd expected to.
Reg
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Reply #54 on: October 04, 2007, 04:22:40 AM

Well congrats! You're almost out of the dunes. Have you done your subjob quest yet? New characters often have a problem getting the skulls for that one before they outlevel Valkurm.
Kitsune
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Reply #55 on: October 04, 2007, 01:02:14 PM

No, I'm still waiting on a skull.  We found one, with two members in the party needing it, and the other person beat me on the roll.  Then an idiot who already had his subjob lotted for it and beat her, so the skull went to someone who didn't need it and couldn't use it.  I'd lost anyhow so it made no difference to me, but I felt bad for her.
Reg
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Reply #56 on: October 04, 2007, 01:20:51 PM

There's a dungeon not too horribly far away where those skull dropping ghouls are very common. If you're lucky someone will have a high level buddy who'll take a group of low levels there to get them set up.

I don't remember if you've played this game before or not so I hope you aren't too displeased to hear that people are going to expect you to have your subjob properly leveled before you move on to the next hunting ground. 20WHM/1BLM just doesn't cut it. :)
Numtini
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Reply #57 on: October 04, 2007, 01:56:48 PM

OMG the skulls. It took FOREVER. Now it's making me feel nostalgic. Something is deeply wrong with me.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
Hoax
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Reply #58 on: October 04, 2007, 02:03:33 PM

Me too, this thread is making me want to play again.  HG:L can't come soon enough!!!   In love

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
Margalis
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Reply #59 on: October 04, 2007, 02:27:42 PM

I just went hunting for skulls again to gain entrance to Ahrt Urghan. Took forever even with Thief sub for treasure hunter. Was in Gusgen mines. (Other 5 items were cake, took 5 minutes each) The first time I needed skull for subjob I literally lost on rolls to other people maybe 15 times in a row.

What server are you on?

At level 14 crabs can be pretty tough. With stoneskin and defense boost monks and one-handed weapon users often hit for single digits or even zero.

Smaller groups get better XP than they used to so grouping with 3 or 4 people is much more viable than it used to be.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Kitsune
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Reply #60 on: October 04, 2007, 03:29:08 PM

I don't remember if you've played this game before or not so I hope you aren't too displeased to hear that people are going to expect you to have your subjob properly leveled before you move on to the next hunting ground. 20WHM/1BLM just doesn't cut it. :)

I have BLM to 14 already, so the instant I can access it I'll have the subjob leveled and ready to roll.  My original plan was BLM to 18, WHM/BLM to 30, then start playing with the advanced jobs, but I couldn't get a group to save my life as BLM/NUB, so I switched to WHM before having a subjob just to be able to get the parties I needed to level to 18.

What server are you on?

Midgardsormr.  It seemed to have a decent and active population and so far hasn't disappointed.  Hardly crowded by any measure, but enough people running around to find parties.

Quote
At level 14 crabs can be pretty tough. With stoneskin and defense boost monks and one-handed weapon users often hit for single digits or even zero.

I had party damage messages turned off so I could more easily keep an eye on how much damage the monsters were doing to the party, so I have no clue how much damage people were inflicting on the crabs.  The problems hinged heavily on the tanks not holding aggro very well and the pullers pulling the monsters right smack into the middle of the party, who would then start tossing bombs and catching the casters in the AoE.

Quote
Smaller groups get better XP than they used to so grouping with 3 or 4 people is much more viable than it used to be.

Not only that, a patch about a year ago made the Signet buff gives an XP boost to small parties.  An unbuffed duo gets 60%/60% of monster XP, but with Signet on it goes to 75%/75%.  There are diminishing returns with more people in the party, with a full party getting no benefit at all, but small parties are helped out a fair bit.
Reg
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Reply #61 on: October 04, 2007, 05:09:25 PM

Well. once you're level 20 and have your subjob you'll be ready to move on to the next hunting spot and get your choco license as well. If you're going as a WHM again I highly recommend that you buy your spells in advance if you can. Regen is an awesome spell and you're going to want to start casting it the moment you can without having to run back to town.

The next big cock-block is the hunting area after that starts at level 25. For that you need a Khazam air pass and getting the stuff for that quest requires visits to 3 or 4 widely seperated dungeons. It's a massive pain in the ass.
Kitsune
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Reply #62 on: October 05, 2007, 01:50:44 AM

Thanks to the kindness of strangers I got the skull, got my support job, and got a guide to Jeuno.  On the way, I learned that FFXI is almost as cruel about invisibility as EQ was; it won't drop without warning, but it sure will drop after twenty seconds.
Reg
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Reply #63 on: October 05, 2007, 03:42:08 AM

Even so that Invis spell is going to let you do a lot of your rank quests solo that other people would have to find a group for. The one that lets you move silently is important too. There are lots of mobs that rely more on their ears than their eyes.
Margalis
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Reply #64 on: October 05, 2007, 04:28:29 AM

Bah the first time I ran to Jeuno I didn't use invis, I just dodged like a man.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Reg
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Reply #65 on: October 10, 2007, 03:34:44 AM

How are things going Kitsune? Have you burned out and quit yet?
Kitsune
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Reply #66 on: October 10, 2007, 11:59:10 PM

I have overcome the Kazham cockblock, and with the required keys in hand I am valiantly striding forth... so I can be cockblocked by my lack of money.  The cost of equipping a character has shot well past the amount of income I've achieved, with spells going for 5,000 gil apiece and the set of level 20 cloth armor being around 40,000 on the auction house.  I'm still wearing level 11 equipment at 23, which I can only get away with by being a caster and safely on the back lines.

This has forced me to investigate means of making money.  Tradeskills have been prompt about devouring my crystal supplies but rather reluctant to produce much in the way of results, and mining lead mostly to broken pickaxes.  I've been told that fishing is the best way for poor people to get some money for supplies, will be giving that a whirl to see how it pans out.
Hoax
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Reply #67 on: October 11, 2007, 12:22:44 AM

Oh yeah, forced crafting that was super weak..  I did like the growing things system though that was sort of cool.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
Margalis
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Reply #68 on: October 11, 2007, 12:38:00 AM

The best way to save money is to only buy what you need. As a WHM the only thing you really need is spells, and you can skip even a lot of those like the crap bar-spells. (Barfira is nice against goblin bombs, that's pretty much it...I don't even have all the WHM spells I could...) +MND gear is decent if you are casting slow/paralyze sometimes.

Your armor is really irrelevant for the most part, as a WHM I wore a Linen Robe into the mid-30s along with a level 8 shield. Trader's gear is probably a waste of money (but it does look cool), you can scrape by until Seer's gear at 30 or until you start getting the first set of Race Specific Equipment which starts becoming available at level 27 IIRC.

From what I understand it's hard to make money on tradeskills because the game is mature at this point and there are a lot of crafters. It can still be done if you pay close attention to what is in high demand but don't expect big returns.

The way I made money was I toughed it out till level 40, did a BCNM and got a Peacock Charm that I sold for 2.2 million. You can also make decent money raising subjobs by focusing on the right mobs - bees and crawlers. (For beehive chips and silk thread) If you level your subjobs around Bastok you can kill bees on the hills in South Gustaberg then move the Fumeroles, then move to Konschtat highlands and kill nothing but bees for 10 levels. This can make a decent amount of money (in the tens of thousands) as you level through the levels where you don't normally form groups. Sapling type enemies (the little wandering sprouts) also drop a variety of valuable items at low levels.

That's what I like to do to kill two birds with one stone, raise a subjob and make some quick cash.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Reg
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Reply #69 on: October 11, 2007, 01:14:46 AM

Moat Carp are your friend. I've been out of the game a while but I doubt that's changed.

Moat Carp can be caught in low level areas with very low fishing skill and there's a quest that requires that you turn in 10,000 of them to get the best fishing rod in the game so a lot of rich high level guys just buy their Moat Carp off the AH.

It's possible that something has changed since I last played so check the AH to make sure but fishing is how I made all of my spell and equipment money. It's boring but it's easy.
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