Where's the advancing story arc?

[Venkman]

Has the Fellowship left Rivendell yet? If not, why not? The calendar in LoTRO is more accerelated than a standard 24hr RL clock, and even though the Fellowship did spend some time in Rivendell before departing, they I think we're past that point.

If so, then it's disappointing that so far we've gotten little more than features and zones that do not show what people had been hoping: Turbine's ability to make an engaging world by advancing the storyline.

[Hutch]

Are you thinking that the storyline will move along in the game at a real-time pace approximating the length of time it took in the books?
In other words, the game went retail three or four months ago, and so three or four months into the story, the Fellowship was at or beyond Rivendell?
If so, the reason "why not" is that it will take them longer in RL to develop the other parts of the world, i.e. Rohan, Moria, Gondor, Mordor etc, than it took for the fellowship to travel through them.
Hell, it took them their entire pre-retail development time to come up with Eriador.
Also, if the storyline only takes as long in RL to advance as it would have in the books, that's at odds with the subscription-based business model.

Or

Are you referring to the Book-and-Chapter storyline within the game, and are wondering if that storyline has gotten the Fellowship past Rivendell yet?
I only got through book 1 of the in-game storyline, at the end of which (spoiler) the hobbits and Strider have just left Bree. (/spoiler)
I couldn't say how far the story advances them after that. I'd be surprised if it gets them past Rivendell, since they turn south after that, and nothing south of Eriador has been published yet.

[Nerf]

Has the Fellowship left Rivendell yet? If not, why not? The calendar in LoTRO is more accerelated than a standard 24hr RL clock, and even though the Fellowship did spend some time in Rivendell before departing, they I think we're past that point.

If so, then it's disappointing that so far we've gotten little more than features and zones that do not show what people had been hoping: Turbine's ability to make an engaging world by advancing the storyline.

I haven't even downloaded LoTRO yet, but I can say from Turbine's other ventures, that if there is ANY company out on the market who can consistently add new and meaningful content every month - its them.  AC1 had it, DDO had it, and frankly I think it's refreshing that they do major updates for free, it's a nice step back from the idea of making players pay even more money to unfuck things.

[Venkman]

Nerf, not to be rude, but this is the reason people got excited about LoTRO from Turbine in the first place, back when it was announced years ago. My question above stems from the fact that we haven't seen anything along AC1 lines yet, neither in beta, nor in live.

And Hutch, I am thinking the storyline should move forward at all. I'm less concerned whether it keeps up with the book speed or not.

So far the world has been fleshed out a good deal, and there's been more fun stuff added to Monster Play, all typical "add more features" MMORPG development in a static world. What we have not seen is the "signature" Turbine move of progressive storyline, for the most a propos IP to hit this genre yet.

[gravdiggr]

Darniaq, i think there are 2 parts to your question.
1- The storyline progress in terms of books. Every 2-3 months you'll get a new book that might progress the story or not. (My guess was that they would use the new book to actually move forward the storyline, but so far, the added books are side stories).
2- In terms of gameplay, they have painted themselves in a corner. With Evendim, they added a quest to help reforge aragorn's sword. So basically, they made the timeline progress a bit because he'll soon be ready to leave. However, they have painted themselves in the corner because rivendell is not an instanced zone and because they are using the important characters a lot for level 40+ content. For one thing, most of the fellowship are the ones that give the legendary books. Plus you have all the content that talks with gandalf, or with aragorn, that would face a problem if they were to go forward with the story.

So basically, i think turbine will wait for a big update before instancing all the fellowship people in small buildings that wont be accessible anymore when you go beyond a certain point in the story. They did that with gandalf in bree in the early levels. I have no idea why they didnt think about it for rivendell (and quest content that is not related to books but require interaction with fellowship characters).

[Venkman]

And that's why I was asking :) I feel like the major protagonists are merely there as content gates. That does make sense this early in the life of LoTRO. I'm hoping Turbine is waiting for a critical mass of players to have experience X content before progressing the timeline forward. But it sounds like some more structural things would need to happen, like, who hands out the 40+ content. Hopefully that's an easy migration, something they built into the core.

[Phred]

And that's why I was asking :) I feel like the major protagonists are merely there as content gates. That does make sense this early in the life of LoTRO. I'm hoping Turbine is waiting for a critical mass of players to have experience X content before progressing the timeline forward. But it sounds like some more structural things would need to happen, like, who hands out the 40+ content. Hopefully that's an easy migration, something they built into the core.

I wonder if the actual npc's of frodo, sam, et all will actually be gone from Rivendale when the story progresses. That seems like an awkward call what with them being involved in the quests of the first 10 books.

[Tarami]

Thing is, the next stop for the Fellowship is really Moria (unless they pop them into a camp somewhere along the way) and we know for a fact that they didn't bump into a couple hundred adventurers while in there. In fact, we know it's desolate up to that point. It's more platable that they did talk to other people while in Rivendell or at any point prior to that, however, as soon they leave Rivendell they are very much on their own. The next load of people we can meet is really Galadriel and Celeborn and the elves of Lothlorien. They are the geographically closest, non-isolated characters at this point. For that to happen we need a whole new zone the size of Evendim, but something much more polished - people got huge expectations on a place like Lothlorien. In fact, the journey from Rivendell to Moria doesn't span more than two dozen pages, a rather meager resource to build a quest line from, especially as it follows them rather snugly with little time-leaps.

So well. Magically unsummoning the Fellowship from Rivendell seems like a rather minor task compared to actually getting to the next, logical continuation of the story, which is either Moria (which means you shouldn't be running into the Fellowship, anyways), or Lothlorien (which is... quite a way off.)

And please, please, please Turbine, let Moria not be the next raid instance. Put that somewhere out of the way - a place most LotR-fans can live without have ever seen.

[palmer_eldritch]

The timeline is already a bit odd, as characters can meet Gandalf in Bree while others meet him in Rivendell. In theory the same character can do that, if you go to Rivendell before you complete the Bree book quests, although I know few people would do that. Even if it is different characters, it's hard to suspend your imagination and pretend the storyline on the server has moved on if your lowbie alt is meeting him in Bree.

Moria seems to be a place people ask for on the official forums, and it would be an obvious one to do as you know there are lots of monsters there and it's a place everyone knows from the books and films. I guess it would make sense if there was also cool stuff that the dwarves have hidden away, artifacts to be recovered and so on - it's like a stereotypical D&D dungeon in some ways.

Maybe players could be sent there to clean it up after the Fellowship has passed through or something . . . but yes, I don't know how they are going to say the timeline has moved on from the Fellowship leaving Rivendell if the Fellowship is also still in Rivendell. Rivendell is a place people go to a lot at higher levels, whether heading for Misty Mountains or just because elves get a racial teleport there, so it would be hard to pretend you hadn't seen Frodo hanging around.

Personally I don't care much, I'm enjoying it. But I think the story works best when they use things that aren't fleshed out in the books much (eg Radagast the Brown in Lonelands).

[Venkman]

Can't remember where I said this, so apologize if it's a repeat. But for me, Moria can work if we're part of some force that holds the goblins at bay for awhile. Suppose we are the reason they don't come running immediately after Pippin drops the bucket down the well while they're reading Balin's book? Or maybe we're responsible for thinning their forces from behind while they run across the bridge. There's a lot we could be doing in the vastness of Moria, maybe sent by Elrond to help them but of course we never catch up. Or heck, we could be sent to the Pass of Caradhras. But I'd say Moria is it. I cannot see them passing up the opportunity to have us watch Gandalf fight and fall to the Balrog. And at the same time, given the vastness of Moria and all the stuff that is still hidden there, this makes a good raid zone.

At the same time, we're also in the vicinity of Dul Goldor in Mirkwood, where Sauron was before he fled from Gandalf to Mordor. While it didn't figure prominent in the trilogy, it was a big part of the lore in general. And given what went on there (which afaik has only ever been implied), it'd make for a good raid zone too.

[Phred]

Can't remember where I said this, so apologize if it's a repeat. But for me, Moria can work if we're part of some force that holds the goblins at bay for awhile. Suppose we are the reason they don't come running immediately after Pippin drops the bucket down the well while they're reading Balin's book? Or maybe we're responsible for thinning their forces from behind while they run across the bridge. There's a lot we could be doing in the vastness of Moria, maybe sent by Elrond to help them but of course we never catch up. Or heck, we could be sent to the Pass of Caradhras. But I'd say Moria is it. I cannot see them passing up the opportunity to have us watch Gandalf fight and fall to the Balrog. And at the same time, given the vastness of Moria and all the stuff that is still hidden there, this makes a good raid zone.

At the same time, we're also in the vicinity of Dul Goldor in Mirkwood, where Sauron was before he fled from Gandalf to Mordor. While it didn't figure prominent in the trilogy, it was a big part of the lore in general. And given what went on there (which afaik has only ever been implied), it'd make for a good raid zone too.

Ya, the number of people I've seen expressing a desire to go to moria, I wouldn't want to be turbine if they left it out. I think it'll probably be a single group instance though. Probably surrounded by thousands of fast respawning elite goblins too. :(

[Tarami]

Screw the Fellowship. I want fucking Moria.



That was one hell of a game.

[Slayerik]

Screw the Fellowship. I want fucking Moria.



That was one hell of a game.

I'm sticking with Rogue for Ascii adventures :)

[Tebonas]

I always preferred the Rogue version with graphics! 

[Tarami]

I always preferred the Rogue version with graphics! 

I hope you feel dirty.

[Nebu]

Rogue with graphics just isn't Rogue.  I need to feel the adrenaline of being chased across the screen by a letter. 

[Slayerik]

Rogue with graphics just isn't Rogue.  I need to feel the adrenaline of being chased across the screen by a letter. 

Haha, so true!

[Phred]

I always preferred the Rogue version with graphics! 

That looks like the Atari ST version. I had that :)

[Tebonas]

It was. That was the game that got most play time on my good old ST. It was my first foray into Roguelikes, so I discovered ASCII graphics long after that. (Hack on the PC, with the Jedi class and his overpowered lightsword). Maybe I would be a purist as well if I discovered other versions before Epyx got to me. But I'm only 33, not some ancient fossil. I get nostalgia when playing Nethack with tile graphics on.   :-D

[Khaldun]

They really only have three options for advancing the story arc at this point.

1. One of the leaders of the Fellowship says, "Hey, we're packing up our shit right now and getting ready to leave, but by the way, Gandalf needs the limb of an Entwife to make himself a better staff or Sam has a magic bunion that can only be healed with the water that flows out of this one cave in the Misty Mountains, so could you go fetch that for us, k thnx." E.g, keep stretching out the narrative strategy of Evendim: small additional quests that are somehow magically sandwiched in between the arrival and departure of the Fellowship in Rivendell.

2. The Fellowship says, "Look, there's this Council thing coming up and all that, but Gandalf has heard that there might be another dragon loose north of the Lonely Mountain: we need you guys to bust your asses through Mirkwood, Dale, the Lonely Mountain and up into the area east of the Iron Mountains to find out. Hurry up, motherfuckers, we can't leave until we're sure there's no dragon. If you find one, kill it, ok? Hey, on the way, stop by Beorn's Honey Farm and have yourself a big-ass breakfast on Gandalf. Here's a coupon." E.g., launch a Mirkwood/Lonely Mountain expansion that improbably squeezes ALL adventures had in those zones into a time frame between the arrival and departure of the Fellowship.

3. Gandalf says, "Hey doodz. Look, my current plan is either to travel along the Misty Mountains, cross into the Gap of Rohan, and head for Gondor. I totally don't think Saruman will be watching that road, you know? But just in case he is, I'm thinking that we can climb up Caradhras without any problems. But...well, I've been thinking, you know, what if we have to take the shortcut through Moria? Tell you what. Could you do me a favor and go ahead of us into Moria and kill all the orcs in there that you can find? Also take this message to Balin: Please don't wake up the Balrog. Love, Gandalf."
That's pretty much how they have to do the Moria expansion. It's even plausible in terms of explaining why the Fellowship doesn't run into any orcs or goblins until Pippin has his little boo-boo with the rock down the well: a fuckton of adventurers went in and cleaned out all the trash mobs for them. You could run into Gollum in Moria and also maybe a few dwarves who are refugees from the battle at Balin's Tomb. Other famous NPCs you could run into:maybe climb the high stairs and see the Eagles, maybe the Mouth of Sauron's been sent into Moria to try and rile up the Balrog, etcetera.)

[zubey]

So basically, i think turbine will wait for a big update before instancing all the fellowship people in small buildings that wont be accessible anymore when you go beyond a certain point in the story. They did that with gandalf in bree in the early levels. I have no idea why they didnt think about it for rivendell (and quest content that is not related to books but require interaction with fellowship characters).

I think gravdiggr has it right.  They'll move all the Fellowship members indoors and do the same trick they did in the Prancing Pony with Aragorn and Gandalf. (i.e. you can only enter their rooms if you're in the right timespan of the epic storyline.)

[Venkman]

I'll come back to LoTRO maybe if they start doing this. For now though, soloing due to RL issues, combat needs to be a hell of a lot more engaging than it is to me. It's still WoW under water, which I suppose people like and isn't worth changing for a market of one. But it's the primary issue I have with the game, enough so now that it doesn't even offset the compelling story elements.

Just not enough time to keep playing the same gave I have 12 times before.

[Khaldun]

That's pretty much the conclusion I've come to as well. There just isn't enough going on in LOTRO to make it either fun or worth studying much--nothing new is happening in terms of MMOG social dynamics.

[Tarami]

Yes. I hit 50 today. Game over. The patch is bullshit, Turbine is doing a bullshit job at ironing out the fundamental flaws and I'm rather annoyed, upset and frustrated at the moment. I was hoping the former patch was the warm-up for some good, solid, thought-out patches, but I was wrong. I feel punished for waiting for it. My liking for this game has in the last few days gone from "pretty decent" to "fucking pointless". There's currently no incentive to do anything at all, not to instance, solo, grind or PvP. It's just pointless.

Sorry for the rant.

[Venkman]

I feel part of the problem is the lack of collective interest. LoTRO is a fine, well-executed sub-based DIKU spinoff, little different from the world's most popular well-executed sub-based DIKU spinoff, and not really all that inspiring as it were. LoTRO does offer some unique stuff from WoW, specifically in the deeds, monster play, and the music system. But those are just during-play alternative features, nothing that radically changes the core point of the game. And that core point is not well supported by a compelling combat system, particularly in this post CoX-age when people want more responsiveness from their choice actions.

They really need to differentiate LoTRO, in a way that future games including TR, PotBS, and AoC are trying to do. These games are all pretty different, not hawking an advancing storyline, but still trying to carve out their niche by offering something unique.

LoTRO does not do that. They could if they push on the one thing nobody else is doing, and the one thing most veterans have given them credit with doing way back in the day when even then it was unique. I find it puzzling that they haven't started the advancing storyline.

[Tarami]

That is, as I see it, the whole problem. They either don't have the resources (likely) or the skills (also likely) to make it as seamless as WoW, but they try and end up with second-rate patches that don't really niche their game in any direction different from WoW's. By making everything compare to it, they're also competing with it, something they can't realistically do. Everything that was introduced in Book 10 was predefined in detail in WoW, so I'm basically playing the same systems in another game that isn't really doing it as well. Turbine should know that their playerbase is adverse to WoW and the overly lighthearted gameplay of it, thus rather be looking in the direction of Vanguard (God save us if they take that literally) for ideas. Nobody is playing LotRO because it's trying to be WoW, they're playing because it's

a) Middle-earth
b) Similar to WoW, hence familiar to them but still different
c) Their first MMO
d) A combination of the three above

They shouldn't look at the suck of Vanguard, but rather the concept that even dikus can come in several flavours. Turbine are right now stealing from one single game, rather than doing what that game did before them - steal from everyone (including their own previous titles).

[Khaldun]

The advancing storyline is definitely the key. I need to write about this soon in a more extended fashion, but it's what I was getting at recently at Terra Nova with regard to authoring tools. One of the few avenues for potential originality (the kind people will pay for) is some kind of system that generates content at a faster rate than Blizzard can. Turbine used to do that with AC1, but they've lost the trick of it. Partly due to increasing tech requirements, partly because occasionally the speed of past content upgrades got them in dutch because they went live with big hairy exploits, partly because they're understaffed. But also, I think, because they just really don't have any vision at this point--their offerings feel very meh to me, and have since AC2.

So that's it in this marketplace: don't have a smart idea, and the staff to make it happen? Get ready to settle for marginal profits. That's all there is to it.

[Xanthippe]

How's monsterplay these days?

How about Loremasters?

[Phred]

That is, as I see it, the whole problem. They either don't have the resources (likely) or the skills (also likely) to make it as seamless as WoW, but they try and end up with second-rate patches that don't really niche their game in any direction different from WoW's. By making everything compare to it, they're also competing with it, something they can't realistically do. Everything that was introduced in Book 10 was predefined in detail in WoW, so I'm basically playing the same systems in another game that isn't really doing it as well. Turbine should know that their playerbase is adverse to WoW and the overly lighthearted gameplay of it, thus rather be looking in the direction of Vanguard (God save us if they take that literally) for ideas. Nobody is playing LotRO because it's trying to be WoW...

Exactly. And to top it off it seems like the Turbine team can't even decide how they want their game focused. Surrounding instances with hours of fast respawning elite trash? How is that casual-focused? The new  max level instance is supposedly even worse with 3 camps you have to take to gain entrance, but if someone tries to retake the camps and fails while you are already in your instance it can bug you and boot you out or something. Only heard grumblings so far as I stopped playing before the patch and it would take more than another half assed reputation system to bring me back.

Add me to Darianq's list of people who hated the combat system.

[BigBlack]

Hell, I'm still waiting for anyone else in the MMO industry to learn half the lessons AC1 taught me about what can make an MMO fun.  Kind of depressing to see that Turbine's forgotten their own lessons learned, all because of one product that didn't reach its commercial potential.  Ironically, that was mainly due to their launching after EQ, with a box that was ugly as sin whereas EQ had elf tits.

It's kind of amusing to think about an alternate world where AC1 came out 6 months earlier, had the tits on the box rather than EQ, and flexible level/skill systems, combat systems integrating twitch skill, seamless worlds with dynamic monthly patches, and all that jazz are the industry standard that everyone apes.

[Khaldun]

I think both Phread and BigBlack get at stuff I've been wondering about Turbine. There's stuff in LOTRO where I just wonder, "Whose idea is that? Why do it that way? What's the point?" And then I wonder, "Why not learn the lesson of your own most successful game? Why not try to do that again, only hit the market at the right time?" BigBlack is wondering just what I've wondered: what would have happened if AC1 had hit the market first and been marketed better? Would we have a different template for DIKUs?

[Venkman]

One way to look at it is through UO:. It preceded both AC1 and EQ1 by just over and just under two years respectively, broke records and was marketed pretty well iirc. But the concept of the experience didn't have the staying power to survive the emergence (heh) of more contrived player-safe mechanics.

[Soukyan]

One way to look at it is through UO:. It preceded both AC1 and EQ1 by just over and just under two years respectively, broke records and was marketed pretty well iirc. But the concept of the experience didn't have the staying power to survive the emergence (heh) of more contrived player-safe mechanics.

Good point. I think that answers the questions of what would have happened had AC1 been first to market and better marketing behind it. It still would have fallen behind EQ1. Because EQ1 made the diku experience with (essentially) no PvP, they won. There are other aspects of the game that were done right, but we've discussed that time and again. It's a shame, too, because AC1 was... hell, IS a well done game. Not perfect, but what is?

[Venkman]

Exactly. It's why I so wish CoX had done better on the market. They've got nothing to complain about of course. But in the overall course of the genre, there are features from CoX that would definitely have been forced into other games if they had broken at least some records and had many more active subscriptions.

[Mrbloodworth]

I just wanted to add to this thread, Apparently, they are introducing golem in book 11.. So i assume they are advancing the story slightly at this time. You can watch the video about book 11 here.

(also, the housing approach sounds quite nice)