Age of Conan delayed, stock takes big hit

[Venkman]

schild's whole point about about WoW, which he repeated again, is that, and I quote: "WoW players are not MMOG players" (he actually said that some may actually be MMORPG players but that's the first time he's ever admitted that and that was after I posted my reply). In other words WoW is its own special universe separate from the rest of the MMORPGs out there because WoW players are not MMORPG players. Or to say it yet another way what WoW players do or don't do doesn't have any effect on the the "real" MMORPG market because they don't count as being part of the MMORPG market.

Ah, yea, thanks for clarifying. Montague got schild's nod for interpretation. In a way, I agree. If you've only ever played one MMORPG, you are not an MMORPG player. You are player of that one game. Once you've experienced an appreciable breadth of experiences, maybe then you're classifiable as an MMORPG player. However, this is all subjective for two main reasons:

• Unlike other genres that predate it, MMORPGs are not so easily to lump together. Second Life to Guild Wars with everything in between. This genre starves for agreeable sub-categories.
• Genres are all marketing speak anyway.

And yet, everyone here and everywhere has had their first MMORPG. And we've all ended up in other ones. The PC AAA MMORPG genre has always grown by plying both the existing fans and trying to attract new ones. WoW did the best at both. Most others having mostly cannabalized. So to write off most WoW players as unreachable is, well, probably the same thing a few companies said when it was EQ1 on top. Different time but similar issues, plus the glaringly big new ones  (huge IP from different studios and cheap-ass Browser-based MMOs)

[Falwell]

Ragnar Tørnquist, the "creative mastermind" behind The Longest Journey, Dreamfall and Anarchy Online, is little more than a hack.

Bullshit.

I have to jump in here as well. Frankly, if SHDR is trying to say this, it automatically makes me dismiss the rest of his post as the ramblings of someone who doesn't know good game writing when he sees it. TLJ and Dreamfall both had some technical/gameplay issues, but the storylines and characters and most of the dialogue were leaps and bounds above other games.

Funcom should be swinging from Ragnar's nutsack at this point in time. His stories / characters in Dreamfall and TLJ are the sole reason either of those games were successful. It sure as hell wasn't the rehashed point and click adventure game motif that was paying the bills. I'd also be willing to wager that those two games are probably the major reason why Funcom not only has the opportunity to get serious funding for a big project like AoC (and TSW recently announced) but why they are still in existence as a company today.

I sure as hell don't agree with all his decisions in game design, but I'm certainly willing to give credit where it's due.

[Riggswolfe]

I have to jump in here as well. Frankly, if SHDR is trying to say this, it automatically makes me dismiss the rest of his post as the ramblings of someone who doesn't know good game writing when he sees it. TLJ and Dreamfall both had some technical/gameplay issues, but the storylines and characters and most of the dialogue were leaps and bounds above other games.

Unfortunately MMORPG's live and die by their technical/gameplay issues much moreso than their storyline.

I would agree with that. I should have made clear I wasn't defending Funcom's ability to make MMOs (though I happen to think AO is pretty decent, especially for a first time MMO) rather I was defending SHDR's attack on the writer of some of the best adventure games (plotwise) in a long while. They're like Indigo Prophecy without the bad ending.

Edit: Fixed tags

[schild]

(he actually said that some may actually be MMORPG players but that's the first time he's ever admitted that and that was after I posted my reply)

Bullshit. There have and always been MMORPG players in WoW. MMORPG players go everywhere. They're just not enough in the majority to ever give them any notice. You know what half of people who play WoW probably play when they're not playing WoW (this includes raiders, casual guilds, small groups and soloers)? Probably Peggle and shit like that. Casual market shit. Or lite console fare. or fast paced FPS shit - like Fabricated. WoW is a Gamer's MMOG, not a MMORPG Player's MMOG. This is why I don't pay any attention to the MMOG gamers that go over there. Most of them probably keep active subs elsewhere (I know MANY, MANY people on this board keep EQ2, WoW, CoH, Dungeon Runners, and other shit running at the same time - that's how MMORPG gamers are). If WoW consisted of 8 Million MMOG gamers, other games would have a hell of a lot more subs. A HELL of a lot more. Simply because MMORPG gamers are so fickle, that they'll get bored one minute - and instead of playing an actual game - they'll log into the other MMORPG they're subbed to.

Also, I never said WoW couldn't steal players away from other MMORPGs. They can. And those players, while flight-fancy, are MMORPG players. That's to say, WoW most certainly is competition for every other Diku based combat MMORPG out there. They most certainly are competition. And at the moment, they're invincible. The best thing to do would be what Dave Rickey said to do a year ago. Hide in a cave or on your island, come up with something new, and make THAT. And ignore WoW. People are forgetting that part.

[sam, an eggplant]

Dreamfall alone sold 300k copies, bringing in US $2.6m. Their operating expenses were US $14.0m and their total revenues were US $10.8m for all of 2006. Clearly AO is still bringing in money. And I rather doubt that Dreamfall cost under $2.6m to make. It costs more than that to make next-gen tetris these days.

Funcom is a public company. Most of this stuff can be easily found in their quarterly reports.

[Slayerik]

(he actually said that some may actually be MMORPG players but that's the first time he's ever admitted that and that was after I posted my reply)

 They're just not enough in the majority to ever give them any notice. You know what half of people who play WoW probably play when they're not playing WoW (this includes raiders, casual guilds, small groups and soloers)? Probably Peggle and shit like that. Casual market shit. Or lite console fare.

Speaking of Peggle. Yeah, I really need a new MMO.

[sam, an eggplant]

What's up with the white splotch above the "congratulations"? Is that furry DNA?

[schild]

Firework, obviously.

What I'm worried about is the "gonna rape you" beaver on the right.

[Engels]

What's up with the white splotch above the "congratulations"? Is that furry DNA?

Just...don't go there. In the future, try to avoid terms like 'white splotch' and 'furry' in the same sentence, especially when associated with a "grand master" title.

[Slayerik]

Firework, obviously.

What I'm worried about is the "gonna rape you" beaver on the right.

I was laughing for like five minutes straight on this one.

Well played.

[Venkman]

The best thing to do would be what Dave Rickey said to do a year ago. Hide in a cave or on your island, come up with something new, and make THAT. And ignore WoW. People are forgetting that part. People are forgetting that part.

Outside of any discussion about WAR and AoC, people are most certainly not forgetting that. The genre is redefining itself, in part because of new tools and in part because of WoW. How many of the games slated for the next two years will actually launch, aside from the ones like TR that almost have no choice given the inertia. 2008 is WAR and AoC pretty much.

Meanwhile, there's dozens of new games classifiable as MMO but not for the crowd that went to or came from WoW. They don't have the look, the game mechanic, the trappings, and yet they'll do what Habbo did: expand the genre to groups of people who a) weren't here already (like WoW did); and, b) to a group of people who weren't interested in anything approaching the same playstyle already here (like WoW couldn't).

For all you're comments about WoW, it is effectively the exact same game that made the AAA MMORPG popular. It's just easier to advance through to the end. But that's mostly to quality in code and in pacing/feel.

[schild]

For all you're comments about WoW, it is effectively the exact same game that made the AAA MMORPG popular. It's just easier to advance through to the end. But that's mostly to quality in code and in pacing/feel.

Surely I've said that a thousand times.

And it's why I cry at night.

[stu]

I played SWG for almost two years. After quitting that one I jumped from game to game and the one I settled on was... WoW. Go figure. The only other game I haven't tried out that I'm interested in is EVE.

As for WAR & AoC? I'm going with the one that gets released first. Then I'm gonna buy the one that gets realeased second and play that. It's like choosing between blondes and brunettes. Both are loaded with potential.

[Modern Angel]

Absolutely do not underestimate the disillusionment of WoW's pvp crowd. There's a reason more and more games are releasing with an integrated pvp aspect of the game instead of WoW's tacked on approach.

[WindupAtheist]

So am I part of the MMO market?  I play an MMO, but my forays into others have been brief and generally unsatisfactory.  While it's possible for another MMO to steal me away permanently, it would have to do a lot of things that the genre just doesn't seem interested in doing.

So am I?  I thought so, because I... you know... pay for an MMO.  But on the other hand, I'd be pleased to hear that I'm not.  MMOs suck.

[Venkman]

For all you're comments about WoW, it is effectively the exact same game that made the AAA MMORPG popular. It's just easier to advance through to the end. But that's mostly to quality in code and in pacing/feel.

Surely I've said that a thousand times.

And it's why I cry at night.

You're looking at this genre from the perspective of a gamer. That's not a good or bad thing of course :) But it does mean you compare what happens here with what gamers do elsewhere, and as we've discussed in the past here, I'm not sure a dedicated MMORPGer is classifiable as a "gamer". There are I'm sure a good chunk of GW players who are gamers. But SL players? EQ1 players? UO players? Even WoW players aren't likely jumping from 20 hours a week raids/PvP into Uno matches on XBLA.

Someday I'd like to see a psychographic map of MMOG players in the various spheres that represent the various sub-sections of this platform, with an overlay that shows similar maps from other genres. Where's the adjacencies?

[Slayerik]

Even though I'm an Extreme Peggle Grandmaster, I'm also an FPS killa, a PVP enthusiast, Diablo gamer, etc

Basically, I just look for games that are fun...which begs to ask the question...why the fuck do I still follow MMOs ? :)

[UnSub]

I love how every MMO thread is a WoW thread.

[Modern Angel]

I love how every MMO thread is a WoW thread.

And every WoW thread is actually an EQ1 thread with an extra billion dollars thrown in.

[Yegolev]

So am I part of the MMO market?

You are not.  Rest easy, disenfranchised one.

[Mrbloodworth]

Ok, so let me ask you this, i see we have some people with market knowladge.

Q: Why would an announcement like this, cause people to sell, and or why did the price of the stock drop.. What is this type of announcement an indicator to for investors?

[Montague]

Ok, so let me ask you this, i see we have some people with market knowladge.

Q: Why would an announcement like this, cause people to sell, and or why did the price of the stock drop.. What is this type of announcement an indicator to for investors?

From a purely financial standpoint there is no good news to that announcement. Christmas 2007 is missed. The funding that Funcom got will be used for more development instead of advertising and marketing. The initial release will more than likely have to compete head-to-head with WAR and possibly WOTLK.

Basically there is now more risk vs. upside, at least from the viewpoint of stock price.

[Nebu]

My gut reaction would be that delays often cost more than they make back in added profit.  I'm guessing this is the reason most games get released in a rushed and buggy state and are fixed while collecting subscription fees.

[Azazel]

...unless you're Blizzard?

[schild]

WOTLK is a horrible acronym. It's unpronouncable. WOT L K. Not a chance. Why not just WLK? Pronounced WALK. So easy.

If investors thought a non-Blizzard MMOG would do well THIS CHRISTMAS (of all christmas'), well, that says a lot.

Conan would have been DOA.

This year is amazing.

[sam, an eggplant]

Really? What MMOs coming out this year are so great?

Tabula Rasa: 10/2/07, but lets be honest, it'll crash and burn if not delayed
Hellgate london: 10/31/07, but it won't really compete in the MMO market
EQ2 kunark expansion: 11/13/07, and the 14 people that play EQ2 will be overjoyed and talk about how awesome it is and we'll all sign up for the trial then quit 3 days later
WAR: Q1 2008 (might make this date)
Conan: Q1 2008 (could slip again as it's STILL not in beta)
WOW: WOTLK expansion: Q2 2008, probably. Maybe 2009.
Aion: late 2008? Nobody really knows.
Star trek online: late 2008, if it's not cancelled first (which it will be)
Marvel online: late 2008, will probably slip to 2009
Guild wars 2: early 2009
Darkfall, Fury, Pirates, Lineage 3, various other KMMOs, etc: Who gives a shit?

[Murgos]

...unless you're Blizzard?

You are 659 in the Queue...

Yeah, WoW launch was roses compared to some others but it had it's issues and quite a few server take downs and emergency patches in the first 90 days after live.

[schild]

Really? What MMOs coming out this year are so great?

Tabula Rasa: 10/2/07, but lets be honest, it'll crash and burn if not delayed
Hellgate london: 10/31/07, but it won't really compete in the MMO market
EQ2 kunark expansion: 11/13/07, and the 14 people that play EQ2 will be overjoyed and talk about how awesome it is and we'll all sign up for the trial then quit 3 days later
WAR: Q1 2008 (might make this date)
Conan: Q1 2008 (could slip again as it's STILL not in beta)
WOW: WOTLK expansion: Q2 2008, probably. Maybe 2009.
Aion: late 2008? Nobody really knows.
Star trek online: late 2008, if it's not cancelled first (which it will be)
Marvel online: late 2008, will probably slip to 2009
Guild wars 2: early 2009
Darkfall, Fury, Pirates, Lineage 3, various other KMMOs, etc: Who gives a shit?

Sup. I was talking about non-mmogs.

[caladein]

WOTLK is a horrible acronym. It's unpronouncable. WOT L K. Not a chance. Why not just WLK? Pronounced WALK. So easy.

WLK (like Guild Wars: Eye of the North is GW: EN) or just Wrath, considering that's what Blizzard themselves are using in the URL.

[sam, an eggplant]

You really still think that MMOs and non-MMOs are in competition? They're entirely different experiences. I know people that just play WoW. That's it. They stopped playing everything but WoW.

I dunno, I don't see Halo3, Mass Effect, Lair, Hellgate, Bioshock, or Assassin's Creed impacting Conan's sales one way or the other.

[Nebu]

...unless you're Blizzard?

Please take notice of the word "often" in my statement.

[Hoax]

Really? What MMOs coming out this year are so great?

Darkfall, Fury, Pirates, Lineage 3, various other KMMOs, etc: Who gives a shit?

New rule.  You dont get to say things like that and bitch about the incest that gets passed as "creativity" in so-called AAA titles.  If all KMMO's are unworthy of any form of discussion then you made the bed the rest of us have to avoid for fear of face-eating crabs.  You know the one where WoW is king because its the same as everyone else just with less broken bits.

I hate white people?

[UnSub]

Really? What MMOs coming out this year are so great?

Darkfall, Fury, Pirates, Lineage 3, various other KMMOs, etc: Who gives a shit?

New rule.  You dont get to say things like that and bitch about the incest that gets passed as "creativity" in so-called AAA titles.  If all KMMO's are unworthy of any form of discussion then you made the bed the rest of us have to avoid for fear of face-eating crabs.  You know the one where WoW is king because its the same as everyone else just with less broken bits.

Agree with Hoax - it's the MMOs that try to break out into somewhere new that are showing a bit more creativity than just the next fantasy MMO with a bought IP. If you only count what's been released to date as western MMORPGs as the 'true' face of MMOs, it's a genre that is always going to have the same problems.

[Venkman]

schild, how do you pronounce MMORPG? Moprepug? :)

And I agree with Hoax somewhat. You can't want to see innovation in this genre at the same time as insulting everyone who's trying something different. And you can't expect to like all those different things either. You're the core audience for a reason.

You really still think that MMOs and non-MMOs are in competition? They're entirely different experiences. I know people that just play WoW. That's it. They stopped playing everything but WoW.

That's why they're in competition. It's about gaming dollars and time, mostly time. Someone could have more money than Rowlings, but they still live in a 24 hour day.

[WindupAtheist]

schild, how do you pronounce MMORPG? Moprepug? :)

More-pig.