Gaming Journalism Hurts the Industry Again. Also, It's Wednesday.

[Trippy]

The main problem wtih shiznitz's challenge is that NDA's prevent that sort of thing from being written up publically. And by the time the NDA drops enough people have already pointed out all the flaws in the forums that publishing something at point just makes it look like you are repeating what everybody else is saying.

[Xerapis]

LOCKBOX!

LOL

[Margalis]

The main problem wtih shiznitz's challenge is that NDA's prevent that sort of thing from being written up publically. And by the time the NDA drops enough people have already pointed out all the flaws in the forums that publishing something at point just makes it look like you are repeating what everybody else is saying.

Not really. If you are pointing out the same flaws and the same solutions that everyone does in forums then again you are no better than joe average guy. If that's the best you can do then you have nothing to offer that a focus group couldn't offer.

What service is being offered here? Obvious advice that is nothing more than conventional wisdom. Exciting!

Point out some flaws and ways to fix them in ways that make sense and display extraordinary insight, rather than obvious flaws without proposed fixes that display commonplace insight. That's the whole point right?

If you can't do better than Vault posters don't expect to be paid.

[Trippy]

You've totally changed the scope of the work. Instead of being paid $1000 to tell them why their game sucks you are saying I'm supposed to tell them how to fix it as well. I'm not doing the job their lead designer should be doing for $1000.

[Xerapis]

So we're back to the point that the input isn't worth the money expected.

[schild]

You've never seen the inside of a game studio then.

When you're halfway through development, it's hard to see the forest for the trees.

[Hoax]

Not really. If you are pointing out the same flaws and the same solutions that everyone does in forums then again you are no better than joe average guy. If that's the best you can do then you have nothing to offer that a focus group couldn't offer.

What service is being offered here? Obvious advice that is nothing more than conventional wisdom. Exciting!

Point out some flaws and ways to fix them in ways that make sense and display extraordinary insight, rather than obvious flaws without proposed fixes that display commonplace insight. That's the whole point right?

If you can't do better than Vault posters don't expect to be paid.

The best part is you've spun this off based on a post I made saying damn near anyone could meet this challenge:

The point has been made but it seems to get lost in the other noise.

schild, pick a game you are beta'ing. Write a "report" on it in the format you are proposing. Send it to Trippy so he can put it in  a "lockbox." Two weeks after the game goes live, put the report up here so everyone can judge whether or not you can do what you say you can do.

To which I still respond by the time one of these games is in a beta its far past too late for anything but tiny tweaks.  Which has resulted in you (Margalis) getting in a huff and calling out Schild and now Trippy about it.  Which is fine by me but sort of funny.

Critiqing Diku-Clone #0083 after its already hit a beta available for mass consumption would be the biggest waste of a person's life I can think of.  Do you honestly believe that anyone on this site would be incapable of reviewing an open beta for these games and not pointing out fixable, worthwhile flaws that wouldn't get fixed?

That's just downright insulting.  First of any of these games is released with glaring bugs, followed by obviously missing features that they promise to "patch in" later.  After that you have the obvious stretch of content that is placeholder shite that they shoved into the game just as they geared up to release.  Either some level bracket or perhaps a particular race/faction's area often times is under developed compared to other game areas.

Once you've looked at those areas you could continue with interface issues, balance issues, lack of customization for certain class/race/level groups/weapon or armor users.  Etc etc etc

But so what?  First of all walking this stupid fine line you've invented in your head between VN-level suggestions and "omg just go be a dev" level suggestions seems like it may be impossible to do.  So you want someone, to waste a bunch of time playing a game that isn't fun so they can prove to the interwebs that they aren't so retarded as to not be able to find flaws in said unfun game?

Oh fuck sign me up.

[Xerapis]

"Why can't companies fucking pay me $1,000 fucking dollars plus airfare and sit me in front of a game for an hour. All I need is a fucking hour. Hell, start me in the newbie zone. I don't even need to see high-level content. I will tell them EVERYTHING that is wrong with their game within that one hour. I will tell them why their quest writers suck. I will tell them why the game will break down at high-levels. I can tell them what reviewers will take off points for when the game is finally released. But most importantly, I will tell them why people won't recommend their game to other people. I can tell them this shit as early as the motherfucking alpha."

That's where we started with this whole mess, before the shitty waters of controversy started swirling.

It really comes down to:

Put up or shut up.

[Margalis]

Pretty much.

It's fine to claim you are good at something, but that's pretty worthless by itself.

[schild]

Since when is it put up or shut up time? I'm content with companies pumping out shitty games. I just don't want to hear or talk about them. And I especially don't want to hear "GAMES JOURNALISTS (lulz)" bitching and moaning about a goddamn thing since they're part of the problem at this point.

Remember, this stemmed from journalists expressing moral outrage at SOE for even considering such a thing.

I bet half of them could have done it also. If they weren't bitches.

[Hoax]

"But most importantly, I will tell them why people won't recommend their game to other people. I can tell them this shit as early as the motherfucking alpha."

AoC:  Funcom why are so many of your features missing?  Bar brawling doesn't work / isn't integrated into the rest of gameplay at all.  None of the siege features you promised are in the game at launch and your class system for promotions is still confusing and leads to people not being sure until it is too late if they will enjoy their class.  What have you been doing all this time if so many of your core differentiating features aren't finished?  I'm not recommending this game to anyone.


WAR:  Mythic why does your balance still suck ass?  <insert archtype here> functions better and has more power then the other three.  Also <insert race here> has such a better version of <insert archtype here> compared to the other races on their side.  Also how is this different from world pvp when all the VP's are earned in instanced Battlegrounds by ORG's wtfrolling PUG's?  This is WoW all over again, just with a tiny bit more ganking and darker lore you didn't even do a good job adhering to.  Wtg, I'm not recommending this game to anyone.

Wow, I fucking kick ass.  I haven't even played either of these games nor have I been drooling over their newsletters or watching all their PR hype-machine videos and listening to their podcasts.

[schild]

This is WoW all over again, just with a tiny bit more ganking and darker lore you didn't even do a good job adhering to.  Wtg, I'm not recommending this game to anyone.

The bolded part doesn't line up with the first part. WoW all over again would result in recommendations, particularly paired with darker lore (and, appropriately, a darker setting).

[Stephen Zepp]

Two things:

Speaking as a developer, public (or anything non-internal) beta feedback is basically worthless. It's too damned late in the development life cycle to make fundamental changes. Beta is for fixing bugs, not re-defining a fundamental game mechanic or addressing game play design flaws.

Secondly, even if a company were performing game development in a Scrum/Agile manner where feedback of this nature could be spiraled in (or, at a minimum, the project canceled early enough in the life cycle to save costs), I'm really not sure it's worth a price tag without a very successful commercially demonstrated track record. Personally, I'd freaking love alpha feedback on fundamental game mechanic with discussion on possible game play (/nudge Schild, you know what I'm talking about), but it's not a commercially attractive work product--for a few dozen dollars and some stamps (or even faxes), I can privately invite a focus group, NDA them up, and get that critical (but not necessarily worth funding, since I can get it free with a bit more work) important feedback when it matters.

With the vast majority of game development life cycles, "beta testing" is one of two situations:

--marketing (seeding viral marketing messages)
--"oh shit we screwed up badly" last chance review, for those companies smart enough to re-start from scratch, or flat out cancel, on projects that are already fundamental failures. That class of developers is almost infinitely small.

Now, prove to me that it's worth spending crucial funding dollars on with your historically accurate track record, and I might consider paying for the service--but as several others have mentioned, you have to bootstrap yourself to that level. No one (successfully) says, "give me your money and I promise I'll be right!" without a track record.

[HaemishM]

No one (successfully) says, "give me your money and I promise I'll be right!" without a track record.

Except MMOG developers.

[Stephen Zepp]

No one (successfully) says, "give me your money and I promise I'll be right!" without a track record.

Except MMOG developers.

lol...touche!

[Musashi]

^Zing!

WAR:  Mythic why does your balance still suck ass?

I thought I either read somewhere or saw a video of that British dude decrying the virtue of silly things like 'balance.'  I believe he used the word 'rubbish.'  It might have even been here?  Maybe not here, but I distinctly remember hearing (or reading?) that one of their core beliefs was not to worry too much about balancing the game around ye olde rock/paper/scissors.  Inevitably that kind of balance seems to be a pipe dream to me in practice anyway, as I've always seen it a robbing peter to pay paul.  So if you're looking forward to WAR, you might as well get used to it, unless I'm thinking of a different game.  Me, I'm kind of looking at it as refreshingly honest.

Ninja Edit:  Paul Barnett Talks About Balance

http://www.mmognation.com/2007/05/18/face-the-nation-paul-barnett-pt-3/

[Murgos]

This Musashi?

[bhodi]

Oh dear. THAT was a blast from the past.

[Musashi]

This Musashi?

No.

[Murgos]

Probably cause some confusion in the future.  Don't be surprised if people start talking like they know you.