Gaming Journalism Hurts the Industry Again. Also, It's Wednesday.

[schild]

I have to disagree. I think that, although fighting games are obviously not a bigger money maker than MMOG, they still make a good sum of money. No one scoffs at the money Sega makes off of VF or the popularity of Tekken, Soul Calibur or Dead or Alive. And you can be your ass that Smash Brothers is a major money making franchise.

Sup dude. Stop talking about fighting games. It's about 1/100th the size of the MMOG industry and the companies that make good fighting games already bring experts in to fix things. It's NOTABLY one of the only genres of the industry that does so. You know this. I know this.

Again I don't want you to think I think you are not qualified to do this kind of work on certain games. IE rpgs and to large extent mmorgs. But you seemed to target the industry as a whole and I can't really think of many designers who could tackle the entire industry single handedly and raise the quality of all genres.

Why wouldn't I target the industry as a whole? All but 2 of the registered devs here work on RPGs, SRPGs or MMORPGs. The site's content is 90% online games in the forums and frontpage. Or multiplayer games. The real news stories we have are MMORPG type news stories. I could not have written this rant at Shoryuken. I'm not qualified to and I recognize that. I also recognize, as mentioned above that the fighting genre is one of the few that does exactly what I'm describing. They also get the luxury of location tests from Japanese arcades most of the time. A luxury that MMORPGs will never get since beta testers on public forums are not a way to gauge popularity or expect real critical response. Also, your average American or European gamer is a fucking idiot who has trouble getting up in the morning let alone forming words. So uhmmmmm, what are you saying?

[Roac]

To be fair, if it's a game and it's not fun, it's not "working as intended."

...

I hope Peter Molyneux and Will Wright are reading this right the fuck now: Fable and the Sims suck despite sells, tone it the fuck down and streamline that shit, assholes.

I think you've just given proof positive why you are not suitable for the task you describe; as I've stated before, you don't get what fun is.  You know what you like, but that's not the same thing.  It's very obvious to you why you don't like something; I can do the same thing about myself, my wife about herself, etc.  It's a much more difficult thing to predict what someone else, or an entire category of someone elses, may like.  I know far too many people who love the shit out of some Sims.  It's not something I care for and I got tired after a few hours, but there are people who are lovin' more expansions.  It is a fun game.  For them.

It's also much more difficult than that to turn around and show what of these ideas are financially viable.  Being able to translate great ideas into a working product, and generate returns.  There are far too many projects that start out with good concepts but burn up their budget on implementation; or many others that are fantastic games, but wind up closing a studio because it didn't regain returns on sales.  Your article was nothing short of a red poster about how schild was going to make bitches out of us because you hold the secrets to the castle that no one else does.  

Just like everyone else on the internet.  Go you.

[schild]

I know far too many people who love the shit out of some Sims.  It's not something I care for and I got tired after a few hours, but there are people who are lovin' more expansions.  It is a fun game.  For them.

I meant to say The Sims Online, which as far as I know, made back it's initial investment - could be wrong though. I know longterm it was a colossal failure. The Sims is one of the best selling series ever, while I think the UI needs some modern shine, I think they know that too and I wouldn't touch that particular series with a 50 foot pole.. Molyneux however needs help, mostly he needs a guy punching him in the head most of the time he starts dreaming.

There are far too many projects that start out with good concepts but burn up their budget on implementation; or many others that are fantastic games, but wind up closing a studio because it didn't regain returns on sales.

Thanks. This is new information.

Your article was nothing short of a red poster about how schild was going to make bitches out of us because you hold the secrets to the castle that no one else does.

Thanks. I didn't know.

Just like everyone else on the internet.  Go you.

Thanks.

[schild]

I think it's important to note that we can sit around ALL DAY and come up with games that don't need this sort of help and what I and you (whoever) aren't qualified to help with.

That's a cakewalk. Then, I also think that ANY OF YOU could name 10 that need generic help at the baseline level for every 1 game that doesn't. That's mostly what prompted the rant. That, by and large, the industry is fucked with "arteeeeeeeeeeeeests" and journalists who are too full of themselves to help incite change.

Telling me I'm not qualified doesn't fix shit. And at this point, I'm pretty convinced that I'm more qualified than most of the assholes working on the games.

[cmlancas]

Roac, I totally disagree. To tell anyone that there is no way to make a game people love better is simply fallacy.

Sorry. What was the point of that post other than stfu, k thx?

[Roac]

To tell anyone that there is no way to make a game people love better is simply fallacy.

Yes it would be.  Which is why I didn't say that.  I questioned schild's ability to make games better, not whether games can (or should) be improved.

[Roac]

I'm pretty convinced that I'm more qualified than most of the assholes working on the games.

If so, and since you said in your article you had a line of developers behind you who feel the same way about your talents, then a job should be a non-issue.  Polish your resume, throw down a dozen industry references, and make the WoW killer.


Edit:  Or here, make your own game.  Seriously.  Pull together a vol staff and create a GUI-MUD to showcase what you can do.  If all you care about is a fun game, then you don't care if companies rip your ideas.  But ideas are a dime a dozen; showing an implimentation is worlds apart.  If you're that qualified, make it happen.

[schild]

Edit:  Or here, make your own game.  Seriously.  Pull together a vol staff and create a GUI-MUD to showcase what you can do.  If all you care about is a fun game, then you don't care if companies rip your ideas.  But ideas are a dime a dozen; showing an implimentation is worlds apart.  If you're that qualified, make it happen.

You can't read, can you? If you're gonna fall into the sarchasm, be a dick, and not be able to comprehend things correctly - especially all that the same time - you should just not talk. I'm not gonna bother saying it again or summing things up for you, but you're typing with your asshole and it's not interesting.

I don't know why you've got an axe to grind with me, but back the fuck off unless you can say something useful. It was my rant and unless you can put forth something constructive, you have no place to be a dick.

[cmlancas]

To tell anyone that there is no way to make a game people love better is simply fallacy.

Yes it would be.  Which is why I didn't say that.  I questioned schild's ability to make games better, not whether games can (or should) be improved.

If anyone has one fucking idea to make a game better than the next one, then he is qualified.

You are saying that he has no ability to come up with any idea to make anything better by questioning him following this logic.

[Roac]

Edit:  Or here, make your own game.  Seriously.  Pull together a vol staff and create a GUI-MUD to showcase what you can do.  If all you care about is a fun game, then you don't care if companies rip your ideas.  But ideas are a dime a dozen; showing an implimentation is worlds apart.  If you're that qualified, make it happen.

You can't read, can you? If you're gonna fall into the sarchasm, be a dick, and not be able to comprehend things correctly - especially all that the same time - you should just not talk. I'm not gonna bother saying it again or summing things up for you, but you're typing with your asshole and it's not interesting.

I don't know why you've got an axe to grind with me, but back the fuck off unless you can say something useful. It was my rant and unless you can put forth something constructive, you have no place to be a dick.

I'm not being sarchastic.  If you think you are qualified to make things better, then build an example of how things can be better.  Or since you couldn't do it all yourself, get a vol team together and lead it.  This is something you can realistically do.  There are thousands of MUDS, and a handful of graphical MUDs, all doing this.  Or you can do something like a flash game and just illustrate a key principle.

[Rasix]

Now you're just being a twat.

[schild]

I'm not being sarchastic.  If you think you are qualified to make things better, then build an example of how things can be better.  Or since you couldn't do it all yourself, get a vol team together and lead it.  This is something you can realistically do.  There are thousands of MUDS, and a handful of graphical MUDs, all doing this.  Or you can do something like a flash game and just illustrate a key principle.

This is the sort of thing only typed by a pompous ass of the highest order who can't appreciate the fact it was a RANT and knew that no one would act on it. And you can trust me or not when I say this - most of the people doing this kind of consulting work haven't built nor needed to implement anything better. Simply because those that can implement, do, and they're the ones that make the type of shitty games I'm complaining about. Odds are, if I were adept at said implementation, I'd be part of the problem.

Edit: No Rasix, he's being Roac.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

I am not just talking about fighting games. I am seeing that you are talking about a few genres here. I think that is it possible for you to make some changes and they may be good. But you can't assume that you will do it better than people who do it for a living. Not all of them suck, I think, and I say this from experience, all the things people want in a game aren't always able to make it in. But it seems that you are pretty convinced you can do better than most people in the industry so you should just do it. Perhaps you are just as good as you think and say you are. 

Note: I am not trying to be a dick here, if you really want to start consulting, you really should.

[schild]

Perhaps you are just as good as you think and say you are.

After playing what I played yesterday, I'm firmly convinced I could help.

[Roac]

If anyone has one fucking idea to make a game better than the next one, then he is qualified.

You are saying that he has no ability to come up with any idea to make anything better by questioning him following this logic.

Ideas mean jack shit.  Honestly, they're not good for much because everyone has them, and quite a number of those are good ideas.  Even getting ahold of great ideas isn't so much an issue.  Any dev, artist, or whomever worth a damn has a pile of good ideas they'd love to make use of.  There are no shortage of ideas.  If you think that's all he (or anyone like the role he describes) can bring to the table, then they're worthless.  

[schild]

Roac, honey, please read.

I'm not selling new ideas here.

I'm selling a motherfucking point of view. I'm selling what SOE tried to just a few days ago.

I'm selling the ability to predict review scores before they happen. I'm selling the ability to predict player response before it happens.

If you don't think I can do that, what the fuck are you even doing here? I'm not uniquely qualified to pitch new ideas. As you said, dime a dozen. But I have been in the situation - multiple times - where I have predicted exactly what I'm selling. For free. It's a useful service. Your theoretical service that you've been bitching and moaning about is stupid and unnecessary.

[SnakeCharmer]

I think...

Yup.

I think I'm the only person that got what Schild was pissed in his wheaties for...

GO ME!

[Roac]

I'm not selling new ideas here.

Which is why that bit was in response to cmdlancas, and not you.

I'm selling a motherfucking point of view. I'm selling what SOE tried to just a few days ago.

I'm selling the ability to predict review scores before they happen. I'm selling the ability to predict player response before it happens.

I get what you're suggesting.  I've had opportunity to work and socialize with people who do market analasys/prediction for various industries, so I'm somewhat familiar with that side of business (it's also something I've sort of done once, briefly, and hated... hats off to those who do it well).  You should also probably consider why SOE was willing to spend ONLY a couple grand on their offer.

[schild]

You should also probably consider why SOE was willing to spend ONLY a couple grand on their offer.

They don't need to spend more than a couple grand. It was a brilliant move by them. It doesn't take a good reviewer more than an hour to identify the shit obvious point deducting/fun removing problems. When you play that many games, it's damned automatic. You can't turn it off. It's one of the reason games are less fun to me, in general, these days.

[Roac]

They don't need to spend more than a couple grand. It was a brilliant move by them. It doesn't take a good reviewer more than an hour to identify the shit obvious point deducting/fun removing problems. When you play that many games, it's damned automatic. You can't turn it off. It's one of the reason games are less fun to me, in general, these days.

You're missing the point.  Yes they don't need to spend more than that and yes it was a brilliant move, but that's not what they're doing.  They don't need a good reviewer; there are plenty of people internal they can call up if needed, or shittons of outside people who will do it for free.  From a design standpoint it's a flop, because it's way too late in the development cycle to manage any code change; that's not their focus.  Yes, they are interested in seeing what the public reaction will be to their product because they want to better manage their marketing strategy prior/on release.  They don't need journalists for that, and remember, that's what they specifically asked for.  If they did fly you out there, they would nod, smile, take notes... and otherwise ignore every fucking thing you say, but not because of anything you did there, or because it's you.  Don't be offended; they do the same to everyone else.

They want journalists, specifically, because they want to grease the rails.  This is advertising money they're spending, not R&D money.  They want journalists to go, get happy with Sony, and once the NDA expires they will write previews/reviews that are more positive than they otherwise would be.  There is psychology at play here, notably the idea of reciprocation.  That is, if I do something nice to you, you're going to feel a sense of need to repay the kindness.  It's one trick in how you buy favoritism.  This is a very old hat, dressed up in a new way so people don't recognize it for what it is.  It needs to be dressed up, because there is more and more pressure (across industries) to not accept these sorts of gifts.  But now, it's not really a gift but a contract service.

Except SOE doesn't give a shit about the service the journalists provide.  You're right, it's brilliant on their part.

[schild]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I finally see the problem.

You don't like SOE and you meant to post at Q23.

They want journalists, specifically, because they want to grease the rails.  This is advertising money they're spending, not R&D money.  They want journalists to go, get happy with Sony, and once the NDA expires they will write previews/reviews that are more positive than they otherwise would be.

Naeg. Not what they were looking to do.

[Roac]

You don't like SOE and you meant to post at Q23.

Naeg. Not what they were looking to do.

I like Sony just fine.  Nor is this a "Sony thing" - this is SOP within all industries, and is just how you do business.  You do nice things for other people who you want to have a buyin to your groupthink or product.  It's the same reason companies will take people out to dinner, buy drinks, host beach parties, or rent out a titty bar.  This is just a new (and clever) twist on an old tactic.

[Furiously]

Microsoft used to call me weekly until I changed my phone number, asking me to come evaluate shit. I was sad I was always working.

http://www.microsoft.com/playtest/default.mspx

Also the non-gaming version:

http://www.microsoft.com/usability/default.mspx

[UD_Delt]

Dude, shut the fuck up and start a company then. Shit or get off the pot as the saying goes.

It's cheap to start a consulting company. All it takes is time. You got the idea and that's the hard part.

My only thoughts on the matter are you would need a better division of labor. You might have a great mind when it comes to games and how to improve them but you probably don't have the skills to sell that back to an executive who needs to be convinced to delay the game and spend some more money.

I would suggest a team of 3: tester, technical analyst, project lead.

Tester: has a "feel" for gaming. Can point to areas that don't seem right and why.
Analyst: has an insight into development and mechanics and can document what the tester "feels".
PL: Can put all of that into a proper format for executives to digest and pass on to their superiors.

You might think you can do it all. But you're wrong.

[Margalis]

Schild on Wii sports: This sucks! The motion controls suck! Make it based on a standard control scheme!

Companies can get people to come in and play their games, record their reactions, have them fill out surveys, etc. Feedback is not the problem.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

She's falling apart captain... Keep this up, and she'll blow.

 I think if Schild were to do this they wouldn't take his opinion as seriously as they should which is kind of a shame. Just get into development Schild.

[schild]

Schild on Wii sports: This sucks! The motion controls suck! Make it based on a standard control scheme!

Wrong, wiseass. I looked at the Wii Fit and knew instantly that it was absolutely perfect and not for me. So is Wii Sports. Just because I'm not retarded doesn't mean other people aren't also. Aside from that, Nintendo is optimizing profit on a fad. It's very clever. It's not the kind of thing they'd need this service for.

Companies can get people to come in and play their games, record their reactions, have them fill out surveys, etc. Feedback is not the problem.

Yep, they do, not the same. Almost all companies do focus groups. Doesn't mean they know how a reviewer thinks. In fact, I'd bet cash-money that most focus groups in gaming aren't worth dick past the first 5 minutes of facial response.

And yes, OBVIOUSLY feedback is a huge fucking problem. Look at MMOG beta tests. I highly doubt focus groups help that much either given the state in which games are released.

[sinij]

Can't agree fucking more. It boggles my mind how many mistakes can be avoided early on with simple peer review equivalent. Scientific circles do it for VERY good reason, its time game development catches up.

Fuck I will top your offer, I will review PvP in any game and write one-page suggestion/correction page for FREE for any upcoming mmorpg title that interested in PvP. I just don't want to deal with another round of suck that is now in the making.

How come industry keep repeating mistakes time after time? Don't they play any games and, you know, observe? I swear majority of mmorpg development done by teams composed by accountants, loon database programmers and catass raiders... when all you need is bunch of gamers that love games.

[schild]

Fuck I will top your offer, I will review PvP in any game and write one-page suggestion/correction page for FREE for any upcoming mmorpg title that interested in PvP. I just don't want to deal with another round of suck that is now in the making.

How come industry keep repeating mistakes time after time? Don't they play any games and, you know, observe? I swear majority of mmorpg development done by teams composed by accountants, loon database programmers and catass raiders... when all you need is bunch of gamers that love games.

NO! WRONG! Do not offer solutions. Do not offer solutions or you become liable. This is something that Roac and Margalis aren't getting. I am not offering solutions. UD kind of gets it. Though at $1,000, 3 people is too many. This is merely the following and NOTHING MORE.

1. I walk into your office.
2. I sign an NDA.
3. I play your game for an hour or few.
4. I give you what the public and reviewers will see as wrong, etc.
5. You, the developers, figure out a solution, implementation plan, etc. $1,000 is too fucking cheap to offer solutions. I am not a designer for hire. That is not the offer here.

At $1,000, I would almost be willing to guarantee a review score guess within 1 point. Hell, within .5. But I wouldn't offer a refund, $1,000 costs less than the beer at a junkett. And I can't account for them paying off reviewers or tained previews affecting smaller mags/sites.

[Murgos]

NO! WRONG! Do not offer solutions. Do not offer solutions or you become liable. This is something that Roac and Margalis aren't getting. I am not offering solutions. UD kind of gets it. Though at $1,000, 3 people is too many. This is merely the following and NOTHING MORE.

1. I walk into your office.
2. I sign an NDA.
3. I play your game for an hour or few.
4. I give you what the public and reviewers will see as wrong, etc.
5. You, the developers, figure out a solution, implementation plan, etc. $1,000 is too fucking cheap to offer solutions. I am not a designer for hire. That is not the offer here.

At $1,000, I would almost be willing to guarantee a review score guess within 1 point. Hell, within .5. But I wouldn't offer a refund, $1,000 costs less than the beer at a junkett. And I can't account for them paying off reviewers or tained previews affecting smaller mags/sites.

I read that book.  I think it was called Pattern Recognition, and was by William Gibson.  I am pretty sure he didn't make the job up so if you learn what it is your are trying to be and use the terminology people are familiar with you might have a better shot at getting accepted as that.

[sinij]

I think we need to offer solutions or suck will continue. It will take another decade of broken dreams to beat sense into industry. THEY WILL STILL FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO BLAME.  Why do you think developers that come up with flawed product in a first place can fix these flaws in adequate way? Chances they KNOW these flaws already and in some misguided way hope it won't matter or will work anyways.

If I am not being paid, how exactly can I be liable? Free advise is just that, free.

[schild]

Guys. Guys. Guys.

It was a rant. It came out of 3 things:

1. I am not that skilled all things considered, I had just played an MMOG and within 15 minutes, I could have made a laundry list of fucking problems.
2. Journalists, many of them, think this idea is bad. They are retarded. That angered me.
3. SOE had tried to do this, but because of #2.

This is a terribly easy job for anyone with a little dev experience and a lot of review experience. Stupid easy in fact. Ironically, since most games journalists are art fag moron blowhards, it's not exactly a very competitive field. I think a lot of the problem with this thread is that people assumed I was offering up easy to implement solutions.

-

Sinij, offering solutions costs more than $1,000. If you offer them for free, you deserve a beating. And yes, you can be liable without compensation. What you want is enough pay to make that liability worth it.

[Murgos]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coolhunting

Look half-way down the page to where it says Computer Gaming under Areas of Research.  If you want to do what you said, tell people if their game is cool or not.  Go for it, the wiki page even has some suggestions on getting started.

[schild]

Oh. Add another thing to the list of things I will offer:

Box art opinion.

Fuck, I can't remember the last good box art I saw. And what kills me is you can go on ANY INTERNET FORUM IN THE WORLD and actually get good feedback on that shit.

STOP PUTTING UGLY SHIT ON MY SHELF, FUCKERS.

Sometimes, it's fun to get petty.

[SnakeCharmer]

How come industry keep repeating mistakes time after time? Don't they play any games and, you know, observe? I swear majority of mmorpg development done by teams composed by accountants, loon database programmers and catass raiders... when all you need is bunch of gamers that love games.

Because they're all in the belief that their 20 year old design document based on gameplay rules from 30ish years ago is THE design document to rule them all.  They're all stuck in the rock paper scissors healer tank nuke d20 mindset.  The newbie devs are being indirectly trained by the old school devs that this is the way it has been done therefore this is the way it shall always be.  Looking back, the game that shall not be named broke those rules and people regarded it as teh suck (mostly because 90 percent of the game was broken, but that's another story).  Devs aren't the only ones to blame for this though, players share an equal or larger share of the blame wheel.  We want something different!! we say with compassion.  We get something different, then blast it because it's not what we're used to and it flops.  We're also stuck in the rock paper scissors healer tank nuke d20 mindset, and commercially successful games such as WoW have made it worse.

We're just to blame as much or more as the developers.

edit: apologies for the slight derail.
second: spelling school is hard.