Wrath of the Lich King expansion

[caladein]

Just as a note, we're looking at another 25-man along with Zul'Aman before Wrath comes out, so Illidan isn't even the last raid boss of this expansion. And they've said that Illidan/Arthas are chump change in the big storyline in the sky (that probably doesn't even exist). But they're still chump change!

Blizzard should be aiming the story in the expansions, if not the phatest loots, at the bulk of their playerbase.  Instead, Blizzard's apparent strategy is to throw casuals just enough bones to keep them paying & subsidizing the development of premium raid/story content for less than 10% of their customers.

You'd be right... except they said that Arthas will be much more intertwined with someone's progression through Wrath then Illidan ever was. The only real story interaction with Black Temple in a serious fashion was the one quest line for Akama that introduced you to him.

BT if it weren't for the whole "You are not prepared!" thing would have had about as much of a story leading up to it as BWL/Hyjal, as in none.

[Modern Angel]

Quick! Somebody phone Blizzard and tell them they should change the very fundaments of their game since it's not working out for them!

fun·da·ment      /ˈfʌndəmənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fuhn-duh-muhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.   the buttocks.
2.   the anus.
3.   a base or basic principle; underlying part; foundation.

I like the first 2 definitions there.   :-D  I'd change the assy parts.

Sure, it doesn't matter to THEM.  They could have more subscriptions, but they're obviously not hurting for it.  They don't need to take any risks anymore and growth likely isn't the driving factor anymore. 

However, it sure as hell matters to some of us: the people they could be retaining and seem to be losing due a lack of a complete experience for the casual player.  They're missing out on becoming a great game. 

The second I saw the Black Temple trailer I knew this game was done for me on a certain level.  An interesting trailer delivering on the primary character for the expansion and closing out a major portion of the lore.. and it's not for me.  I may come back for some PVP changes if they turn out to be interesting or for the 70-80 portion of the next expansion, but there's always going to be that portion of the game that's specifically "not for me".  The part that's "not for me" is the part you play games for.  You don't buy Disgaea and hope that your game ends at Mid-Boss, do you? 

/end_pointless_rant

I hope that someone gets this right for me.  WoW isn't going to. 

At the same time you know what WoW is now. And at least you're admitting that the game's not for you. There are scores of people who see what the game is and insist, LOUDLY, that it change. Well, fuck, it's not going to because it's not designed that way. It's like playing a racing game and wondering why it's not a baseball game; it's just NOT.

[Rasix]

It just boggles my mind that people expect the expansion is suddenly going to be different than everything before it.

People aren't expecting it to be any different.  There's a difference between expectation and preference. 

It sucks for me now, and I'm not playing it.  I expect the time-to-suck is going to be pretty short in the next expansion.

[Ratama]

This expansion is more of the same... I'm sure I'll purchase it just like I did TBC.

Blizzard is most likely going to have more competition for gaming dollars with this next expansion; maybe they should try and do better than 'just more of the same'.

Like, I dunno, maybe stop wasting time and money designing *any* content that 90% of your playerbase won't ever even have the chance to use.

Stupid shit like:

Quick! Somebody phone Blizzard and tell them they should change the very fundaments of their game since it's not working out for them!

... just proves how goddamn stupid some of the people in this community are; how many goddamned idiots said the same stupid shit about McQuaid & Co. regarding EQ?

"Golly Gee, they're making so much money, they must be doing it right!"

And what happened?  All the dumbshits that parroted that nonsense back then look pretty goddamned stupid, don't they? 

I'm just cutting out the future hindsight and getting right to the namecalling.

[Ratama]

BT if it weren't for the whole "You are not prepared!" thing would have had about as much of a story leading up to it as BWL/Hyjal, as in none.

Well, you mean other than that whole 'Warcraft' franchise. 

Edit: Okay, just in case you're on of the few that never played the Warcraft RTS game; illidan, Vash, Kael'thas, and others, were all part of those games, and the lore placing them in their current positions is something you actually got to play through (for the most part).

Murmur and the other 5-man scrubs?  Not so much.  The major characters you interacted with in those games are raid-only encounters (for the most part; there are a couple minor exceptions in the old world, but none in BC that I recall atm).

It just boggles my mind that people expect the expansion is suddenly going to be different than everything before it.

Expected?  No; just hoped.

My comments in this thread are in the 'Are those dumbasses trying to piss it all away?' vein, as opposed to 'They need to change their game for me!' pov.

WoW is a fast food joint being run by idiots that think they're working for a 5-star restaurant.

[Nonentity]

I got to run around Howling Fjord at BlizzCon.

I changed my character's name to Combatleague. I cussed in general chat a lot, ran into an invisible wall, couldn't find the instance, and got killed by giant norse men.

Whee!

[Threash]

This expansion is more of the same... I'm sure I'll purchase it just like I did TBC.

Blizzard is most likely going to have more competition for gaming dollars with this next expansion; maybe they should try and do better than 'just more of the same'.

Like, I dunno, maybe stop wasting time and money designing *any* content that 90% of your playerbase won't ever even have the chance to use.

Stupid shit like:

Quick! Somebody phone Blizzard and tell them they should change the very fundaments of their game since it's not working out for them!

... just proves how goddamn stupid some of the people in this community are; how many goddamned idiots said the same stupid shit about McQuaid & Co. regarding EQ?

"Golly Gee, they're making so much money, they must be doing it right!"

And what happened?  All the dumbshits that parroted that nonsense back then look pretty goddamned stupid, don't they? 

I'm just cutting out the future hindsight and getting right to the namecalling.

Theres just no arguing with this amount of nerdrage, let me just say i think you are entirely wrong about absolutely everything and whatever game it is that did the things you want would have small fraction of the subs wow had a year ago.

[Modern Angel]

How about you lick my balls, ace. How many choices did you have when EQ was around as opposed to now? This time next year? That's the difference.

Fuck sake, if you don't like  A FUNDAMENTAL ASPECT OF THE GAME why in God's name are you subjecting yourself to the torture, the horror, the abject humiliation of continuing to play and have the subliterate leet retards wave purple penises in your face?

It's a game. I know this may be some sort of weird concept but that's all it is and it's designed a certain way. That certain happens to have an endgame focus on raiding. It always has and it always will because (oh god bear with me) when you make a game you actually do it with certain things in mind like how things are designed and who it's going to appeal to.

If you played halfway through a baseball game and didn't like it would you threaten to beat the shit out of the devs? Fuck no because you'd be a retard if you did. You just went and played a different game. Why MMOs attract the most petulant, self-absorbed mouth breathers is mystifying.

Edit: That was to the dizzy bitch three posts up, since my quote thing went bonkers.

[Ratama]

How about you lick my balls, ace.How many choices did you have when EQ was around as opposed to now? This time next year? That's the difference.

Fuck sake, if you don't like  A FUNDAMENTAL ASPECT OF THE GAME why in God's name are you subjecting yourself to the torture, the horror, the abject humiliation of continuing to play and have the subliterate leet retards wave purple penises in your face?

lol... wow, paging Dr. Freud.

And who says I am?  I only play to keep in touch with friends and family; now that they're quitting, so am I.  So what?  I was simply marveling at the ineptitude of Blizz's current Live team.

And yeah... the choices people have this time next year might very well be the difference.

Edit: That was to the dizzy bitch three posts up, since my quote thing went bonkers.

Only dizzy folks here are you and a couple of the other fanbois.

Theres just no arguing with this amount of nerdrage, let me just say i think you are entirely wrong about absolutely everything and whatever game it is that did the things you want would have small fraction of the subs wow had a year ago.

The more casual-oriented WoW game that originally designed by Blizz *is* that game (or close enough).  And that's the game that everyone I know personally that plays WoW wants; I don't know a single goddamn person in-game that *wants* to raid with 2 dozen of their closest friends; they'll do it, and still have fun, but they'd rather be doing it with a smaller group of friends/family.

[Modern Angel]

Let me get this straight. I play three nights a week with some light raiding and I'm the asshole

You insist on treating a game (A. GAME.) as though it were choosing which coffin to pack grandma into  and you're the hero.

I just want to make sure I'm square here so the next time you come in here and get fucked like a dildo powered go-kart we're copacetic.

[Ratama]

Let me get this straight. I play three nights a week with some light raiding and I'm the asshole

What you do for a part-time job is your business.

Speaking of businesses, that's what Blizzard is, and WoW is a service provided by that business.  Slightly different that refereeing a game of pick-up softball down at the park.

You seem to be under the impression that businesses of a certain size/success are proof vs ineffectual management; I disagree.

[Threash]

Im sure they are about to go under any minute now, if only they'd listened to you.  When all the wow servers are turned off a mere 2 days after war comes out then we'll all see how right you were.

[Modern Angel]

Being run particularly ineptly? What? WHAT? Are you from the moon? If you could see, could contrast, for one second what goes on inside any other MMO dev house and Blizzard I can promise you that you'd see Blizzard as the closest model of real corporate efficiency the business has. Whether that speaks more to Blizzard being good or the video game industry being bad is your call. But out and out inept? Come on... you're the nerd beating up on the jock in revenge for some slight twenty years ago.

Your sig is also outrageously stupid and more or less sums up precisely how broken you are.

[Ratama]

So turning off the servers is the new mark of MMO failure?

How about needlessly surrendering tens, or maybe even hundreds of millions of dollars/year to your competition?  That sounds like failure to me.

WoW's subscriber base, even at 50%, would still be... 5 times greater than EQ at its peak?  But if that's where WoW is next year, then yeah, that's some massive fucking failure on their part.

Personally, I don't think WAR or AoC has that sort of potential; but Blizz *is* going to lose $$$ to them that they didn't have to.

And btw,  I'm talking about the mismanagement at the top; I'm not saying Blizzard is in the habit of hiring retards for every position in the company (far from it).  But they have a couple of lemons in their front office atm.

[Murgos]

For those that missed it due to the stealth edit above Ratma made the claim that the WoW live team was particularly inept.

I'm not sure why he snipped it, it was pretty good troll bait.  I mean, I don't even play the game and I felt like I had to reply.

[Threash]

So turning off the servers is the new mark of MMO failure?

How about needlessly surrendering tens, or maybe even hundreds of millions of dollars/year to your competition?  That sounds like failure to me.

WoW's subscriber base, even at 50%, would still be... 5 times greater than EQ at its peak?  But if that's where WoW is next year, then yeah, that's some massive fucking failure on their part.

Personally, I don't think WAR or AoC has that sort of potential; but Blizz *is* going to lose $$$ to them that they didn't have to.

And btw,  I'm talking about the mismanagement at the top; I'm not saying Blizzard is in the habit of hiring retards for every position in the company (far from it).  But they have a couple of lemons in their front office atm.

Im quitting WoW for War when it comes out.  Not because i think theres anything wrong with wow, not because i think war will be a better game, and certainly not because of any of the things you've said.  Im quitting wow for war because by that time i'll have played wow for over THREE FUCKING YEARS.  You cant play the same game forever, wow is going to lose subs to other games no matter what the hell they do, and if they have to chose between doing whatever it is they've done so far that has worked beyond their wildest expectations or trying to appease the nerdrage of forum whiners who would probably quit anyways no matter how many free epics they get i think they are much better off if they continue to ignore people like you.

[Paelos]

Blizzard is most likely going to have more competition for gaming dollars with this next expansion; maybe they should try and do better than 'just more of the same'.

Like, I dunno, maybe stop wasting time and money designing *any* content that 90% of your playerbase won't ever even have the chance to use.

Ok you seem to not understand the other guys' points because they are usually pretty abrasive and swear-covered, so here's my shot. Three points:

1) Like it or not, the hardcores are ALWAYS going to be there in any MMOG because of the mechanics involved. They are 85% time spent and 15% skill (with some variations) so the more time you're on the better off you are. Trying to deny that they exist as a business makes zero sense. Ignoring programming completely for them makes no sense. Sure you could live in a world where everyone could get everything and could kill every single boss, but that's fucking boring, and it's also not good for retention. Having goals in the future keeps people shooting for the next one, and it keeps people coughing up monthly fees. Also, those "10%" of poopsocking catasses is about 800,000 accounts. Let's not forget that this is more than EQ could hope for. You don't just go "oh I think I'll piss away $12M a month in fees because I don't want to bother creating material for them to hump." That's a sure way to get your ass fired.

2) The 10% number is misleading. By the time people got to expansion, 50% of the people on my server (Proudmoore - according to the "Guild Progression" thread) cleared MC a few times, 25-30% had cleared BWL, 15-20% were working on or had cleared AQ40, and 15% had been in Naxx in some form. 5% had a full clear done. Should they have never put Naxx into the game because people wouldn't use it? At the time when MC was still not dominated should they not have added BWL? Nobody but the hardcore were even involved in it. Most thought they would never see it, and yet many did. The early adopters were done with MC, so why not open up the option?

3) I think WoW has proven that they will in fact put a heavy amount of resources into content that more than 90% of the playerbase will see. Hundreds of quests, Well-crafted zones, many many 5 man instances, and a couple 10 mans. Saying that they shouldn't also use a portion of their time to program higher-end zones is sophomoric at best. Are you upset that you burned through your content so fast? There is stuff above that. I know you have no sympathy for the catasses, but it's the same way with them, and like you said before, you all pay your money. Blizzard wants to make sure by it's business plan that people always have a next step available to them if they want it. That only makes sense. If you don't like the next step, that's fine. However, suggesting that their strategy is flawed for making that call makes no sense. This game is about a lot of different things, but raiding is the top, and that has the most potential for long-term retention.

[Phred]

The art assets for all the Northrend zones may be done or nearly so, but I'm be surprised if they actually had any serious amount of content in them yet. Especially an amount ready for serious testing. Just look at TBC. When beta started, half of the zones weren't even in yet because they were finished the itemization and other content. Blades Edge arguably wasn't even for release.

I expect with Northrend will be paced a lot better since they were pretty eager to finally get their first expansion out after 2 years, but if all of Northrend's exterior zones are ready for beta test when we get into it, I'd be surprised. Blizzard typically seems to try to really linearly push through content from start to finish rather than slowly bring everything (even most things) up at the same time.

In the BC beta they were constantly iterating over the quests even in the first zones finished. Hellfire peninsula had a huge quest line just disappear one patch. I have no idea why as it wasn't bugged when I did it either.

[Dren]

It has been said already, but I wanted to jump on the bandwagon.

Blizzard is not going to do anything ground breaking with WoW now.  The game will go into a steady slow decline just for reason of being old and outdated as time goes by.  Why risk a cashcow that IS wildly succesful by yanking fundamentals around on it for each expansion when people eat it up anyway?

I'd bet my life savings that Blizzard is plotting or even desiging the next big MMO right now.  That is the time to look at having a fundamental change from what WoW is. 

The expansions from here on out will be about retaining people, not bringing new people back in.  If you are fed up with not being able to "win" the game each expansion, then get out now, because you never will.  Hell, I don't need to "win."  I never have with these games.  As long as the carrot in front of me is tasty looking and I get a bite of it each night I play, I'm good.

I could not care less that some other guy spent massive amounts of time more than me to go tickle the gods.  I have a large life outside of the game, so I treat the game as such.  A game.  If it grows stale on me, I move on.  I have no windmills to charge to try and save one game over another.  That's just weird.

[Modern Angel]

I have a sneaking suspicion that they're tying up loose ends from the RTS series with the expansions before launching Warcraft 4 and a new storyline, possibly tied with a WoW2. Not for several years but we've killed Illidan, Kil'jaeden is coming, Arthas will be killed... Emerald Dream is lurking as are the South Seas. Three more expansions, maybe?

[SurfD]

I have a sneaking suspicion that they're tying up loose ends from the RTS series with the expansions before launching Warcraft 4 and a new storyline, possibly tied with a WoW2. Not for several years but we've killed Illidan, Kil'jaeden is coming, Arthas will be killed... Emerald Dream is lurking as are the South Seas. Three more expansions, maybe?

Yeah, if they indicate that Illidan and Arthas are "chump change" in the grand scheme of raid bosses in their great plotline in the sky, one has to wonder:
- Emerald Dream.  This is a landmass, that if done right, should be THE SIZE OF THE ENTIRETY OF AZEROTH, and is for all intents and purposes VERY VERY fucked up, being run by a possibly corrupt Dragon Aspect.
- Deathwing.  Thats right.  Neffarian's old man.  For anyone who has done the Netherwing ledge quests, and hung around for one of the scripted events there, all indications point to Deathwing being very much alive and active, still pulling strings for SOME plot or other (he is the guy they are collecting Netherwing Eggs for)
- THE TITANS.  The last wrap up for anyone who completed the full storyline attached to Uldaman leads you to a statue outside of the Titan Vault complex in Tanaris, where you find out that the Titans Themselves may be headed back to Azeroth for a "re-evaluation" of their little science project, cause it seems something has been fucking with their sandbox and they aren't happy about it at all.

Hell, WoW probably has enough lore worked into the current game alone to keep it going for YEARS worth of expantions without having to dig for more or pull it wholesale out of their asses.

[ajax34i]

The game will go into a steady slow decline just for reason of being old and outdated as time goes by. 

I think they'll revamp the graphics at some point, even if they limit it to just one of the expansion areas, and leave the old content as-was.

From what I've observed, people play in stretches of 3-6 months or so then perhaps cancel, so it's a matter of getting them to re-activate, rather than trying to get new customers, or worrying about permanently losing existing ones.  And yeah, regularly scheduled expansions, plus the odd Zul'Aman-type addition now and then (random content patches) will do the trick.  Every minor addition or fix surrounded by much fanfare and advertising, to get people to re-activate in order to try it out.  Just like every other MMOG's business plan, really.

[Dren]

I have a sneaking suspicion that they're tying up loose ends from the RTS series with the expansions before launching Warcraft 4 and a new storyline, possibly tied with a WoW2. Not for several years but we've killed Illidan, Kil'jaeden is coming, Arthas will be killed... Emerald Dream is lurking as are the South Seas. Three more expansions, maybe?

Feels about right.  4-5 years from now the game will look dusty and lose appeal from age and graphics alone.  I could see them launch Warcraft 4 to build up more Lore to base a future WoWx to, but launch a new MMO in the meantime.  Let WoW die off slowly while the buzz around the storyline of Warcraft4 builds up.  3-4 years after than launch WoW2 just as the new MMO (Diablo online or Starcraft online, etc.) is starting to wane.  They could easily continue to creat the ebb and flow of popularity along with using their tech. compass for predicting pushing new graphics, etc.  

As I said, I would bet everything they have a nice big board somewhere at their offices that lays all this out from a macro level and several of the projects are being at least scoped if not started now.  They have 3 franchises to rotate around to keep things somewhat fresh all the time.

Who knows.  They may actually try and launch a 4th franchise to help keep the buzz going strong.  

[Simond]

- THE TITANS.  The last wrap up for anyone who completed the full storyline attached to Uldaman leads you to a statue outside of the Titan Vault complex in Tanaris, where you find out that the Titans Themselves may be headed back to Azeroth for a "re-evaluation" of their little science project, cause it seems something has been fucking with their sandbox and they aren't happy about it at all.

Yeah, I've got a mental image of the Titans landing, looking around, and wondering what the hell's going on: "Orcs? ORCS!?! What in the flaming nether are they doing here? They should be on planet F5Y-JG856. And why is it fighting what appears to be a rogue earthen drone suffering from ethanol poisoning? Wait, what's that other species? That pale-skinned thing with the pointy ears". *whips out titan equivalent of a tricorder* "Hmm. Mutant troll with arcane dependancy & fel taint. Interesting. Prepare the vivisection chamber"

Edit: Anyone else find it interesting that the Azeroth humans have no origin myth whatsoever?

[Nonentity]

Edit: Anyone else find it interesting that the Azeroth humans have no origin myth whatsoever?

Yeah - from all intents and purposes, the mythos seems to indicate that they just kind of showed up, were barbaric tribes, and then all banded together for protection against Trolls under the banner of Arathor (and the great city of Strom, which became Stromgarde).

[caladein]

That's very Tolkien-esque in a way.

A species with no discernible advantages outside of ambition and the ability to organize themselves achieves hegemony in the Eastern Kingdoms. Then through the ineptitude of its leadership and fall of its greatest heroes, it basically fucks the whole planet up. It then falls upon the naturalistic races to (in this case allied with the Humans themselves) to fix the Human's screwups.

That does mean that Night Elves are Hobbits, and that's the best God damn idea I've ever had.

[Jayce]

Edit: Anyone else find it interesting that the Azeroth humans have no origin myth whatsoever?

Yeah - from all intents and purposes, the mythos seems to indicate that they just kind of showed up, were barbaric tribes, and then all banded together for protection against Trolls under the banner of Arathor (and the great city of Strom, which became Stromgarde).

The gnomes just seem to have show up too, unless there's something I don't know.

I for one would be just as happy if they hadn't.

[Nonentity]

Edit: Anyone else find it interesting that the Azeroth humans have no origin myth whatsoever?

Yeah - from all intents and purposes, the mythos seems to indicate that they just kind of showed up, were barbaric tribes, and then all banded together for protection against Trolls under the banner of Arathor (and the great city of Strom, which became Stromgarde).

The gnomes just seem to have show up too, unless there's something I don't know.

I for one would be just as happy if they hadn't.

I just assume everything comes from Trolls unless otherwise indicated.

Trolls were the first race on the planet, then came the Aqir, which was the race that C'Thun created, which split off into two races - the Qiraji and the Nerubians.

The two major Troll empires, the Gurubashi and Amani, managed to come together and beat the shit out of the Aqir into the north and south regions, until internal squabbling made the Trolls split into different tribes.

Trolls who found the Wells of Eternity turned into Night Elves.

[Ironwood]

This thread got Sub-Geeky.

[MrHat]

This thread got Sub-Geeky.

Ya.

Also, it's funny to watch people discuss Warcraft lore when Blizzard gives shitty reasons to add shitty races.

[Ironwood]

Bring on the Spaceships that drops off new Shaman.

 

[Dren]

Hey don't be playing the "I'm in this thread, but I'm not a geek" card.  Come on.  Seriously.

This thread actually started to interst you and you know it.  You just got a bit scared, now didn't you? Eh?  Eh?



I know I am.

[Simond]

Edit: Anyone else find it interesting that the Azeroth humans have no origin myth whatsoever?

Yeah - from all intents and purposes, the mythos seems to indicate that they just kind of showed up, were barbaric tribes, and then all banded together for protection against Trolls under the banner of Arathor (and the great city of Strom, which became Stromgarde).

The gnomes just seem to have show up too, unless there's something I don't know.

I for one would be just as happy if they hadn't.

Mutant dwarves, iirc.

[Ironwood]

Hey don't be playing the "I'm in this thread, but I'm not a geek" card.  Come on.  Seriously.

This thread actually started to interst you and you know it.  You just got a bit scared, now didn't you? Eh?  Eh?



I know I am.

Don't you think I've embarrassed myself enough in this thread ?

[Jayce]

Edit: Anyone else find it interesting that the Azeroth humans have no origin myth whatsoever?

Yeah - from all intents and purposes, the mythos seems to indicate that they just kind of showed up, were barbaric tribes, and then all banded together for protection against Trolls under the banner of Arathor (and the great city of Strom, which became Stromgarde).

The gnomes just seem to have show up too, unless there's something I don't know.

I for one would be just as happy if they hadn't.

I just assume everything comes from Trolls unless otherwise indicated.

Trolls were the first race on the planet, then came the Aqir, which was the race that C'Thun created, which split off into two races - the Qiraji and the Nerubians.

The two major Troll empires, the Gurubashi and Amani, managed to come together and beat the shit out of the Aqir into the north and south regions, until internal squabbling made the Trolls split into different tribes.

Trolls who found the Wells of Eternity turned into Night Elves.

And night elves who spent too much time in the sun and playing with magic became high/blood elves, who later taught humans and gnomes to use magic.

And dwarves were created by the titan Khaz'Goroth (though they were called Earthen then) and went to sleep in Uldaman for a few thousand years, at which time they awoke having evolved into dwarves.

Sub-geeky, indeed.

edit:clarity