Let's talk about Lewt.

[CaptBewil]

1. The Loot items wouldn't be "rendered" except when accessed.  As was discussed earlier, there would be a "Loot mound"(trash pile) left in the battlefield.  When they are, it's just 1 per item type.  IE, | [image] | Heavy Armor Boots | 247 | Pairs |  Then you click on that line item and select how many you want to take.
2.  The risk comes in when they try to transport 1 type of fanctional loot through an opposing factionally controled area.  There will be a chance that a guard (or guards) will stop and check their cargo for contraband (which opposing factional loot would be considered contraband) and then an appropriate action would be taken.  Hence, the need for a smuggler system, etc.

It's really not as CPU intensive as you might think.  Even then, it's primarily client side and not server side.

[schild]

Sup guys.

Loot is easy.

1. Have monsters be using the loot. If he's carrying the sword, you can loot the sword. Giant plant monsters and landsharks don't drop swords. But sharks might drop lasers.
2. Randomize what type of loot is on the monsters.
3. Have collectibles drop off monsters: charms, etc. I.E. Steal that entire system from Titan Quest. Collectibles are things that are small enough to not be shown on screen (a tooth or scalp for example - technically they're part of the monster rather than loot, but ya know what, it's my system and I know loot better than you).
4. If you think you're being creative enough, you aren't.
5. Never reveal all of the loot in the game. Ever. Always keep the player guessing. The moment he knows the best loot, there's no reason to play your game.

#5 is my biggest problem with MMOGs. And you know what, it'll continue to be. I didn't play DDO past beta because I saw people in the highest level armor. If there's an Obvious Thing that I have to aim for, I consider the game flawed to the Core. Anything with raids falls under that because they break rule #5, which I suppose is a side-effect of rule #4. Which brings me to my summation, if even 1 rule is broken, all rules are broken.

So when I say loot is easy, I mean it's hard, really fucking hard.

Not because it's hard to say, program, but rather - it's hard because designers are dimwits that don't "get it."

Edit: Sub Rule Alpha and Omega - Not necessarily a sign of failure, but not having colored loot is Stupid. It's the single best thing you can possibly carry over from muds. Sure, it's completely archaic since we're getting to the point that actual graphics are detailed enough it might not be necessary, but it should always be considered necessary. I want to be able to eyeball a pile of loot while holding down the "show loot" key. If I see green, purple, rainbow, gold, etc, I will pick it up.

Edit: Sub Rule Delta: Another one that's not a sign of failure, and an easy one. Shitty loot is better than no loot. All those cracked, broken, tarnished items... make them drop anyway. Sometimes it's pleasing to stand amongst a giant pile of loot on a hill, naked, and tell people to look upon your kingdom. For you are Ozymandias. And if the loot isn't tarnished, cracked, and broken then the Ozymandias joke makes no sense.

[Sairon]

Edit: Sub Rule Delta: Another one that's not a sign of failure, and an easy one. Shitty loot is better than no loot. All those cracked, broken, tarnished items... make them drop anyway. Sometimes it's pleasing to stand amongst a giant pile of loot on a hill, naked, and tell people to look upon your kingdom. For you are Ozymandias. And if the loot isn't tarnished, cracked, and broken then the Ozymandias joke makes no sense.

I would only agree with this one if there was a loot filter present so that you can filter it away. I mean, has there ever been anyone actually using a grey item in Diablo/WoW/whatever? In WoW it's at least a source of income, but in diablo it's mostly just junk polluting my screen when I'm looking for my precious.

[Nerf]

1. The Loot items wouldn't be "rendered" except when accessed.  As was discussed earlier, there would be a "Loot mound"(trash pile) left in the battlefield.  When they are, it's just 1 per item type.  IE, | [image] | Heavy Armor Boots | 247 | Pairs |  Then you click on that line item and select how many you want to take.
2.  The risk comes in when they try to transport 1 type of fanctional loot through an opposing factionally controled area.  There will be a chance that a guard (or guards) will stop and check their cargo for contraband (which opposing factional loot would be considered contraband) and then an appropriate action would be taken.  Hence, the need for a smuggler system, etc.

It's really not as CPU intensive as you might think.  Even then, it's primarily client side and not server side.

I'm sorry, I addressed your first post ala render a naked corpse and then every item is rendered separately on top of it, it was a silly idea and needed ridicule.

I personally think the trash pile left on the battlefield is just as silly, mainly for the risk/reward reasons stated above, and I'm not even going to start getting into how immersion breaking it is then every time an enemy is vanquished, their loot is magically transported to a huge rubbish heap.

As an aside not related to aforementioned silliness, I personally don't like corpses and having to loot them, it's not very satisfying.
Think lineage2/diablo 2.  Every time you make a kill, if loot is going to drop, it pops onto the ground with a nice thud, ching, etc.  So much more satisfying than opening a corpse and seeing an icon.

[pxib]

A perfect system would be, of course, the system from Titan Quest where items fly off of a recently vanquished foe in every direction, while their newly naked corpse flails across the map. Ideally those items should roll down hills, off cliffs, and into lakes.

[Nerf]

A perfect system would be, of course, the system from Titan Quest where items fly off of a recently vanquished foe in every direction, while their newly naked corpse flails across the map. Ideally those items should roll down hills, off cliffs, and into lakes.

Nice, although I wouldn't call that perfect.  Now if they set things on fire, or exploded, sign me up!

[KyanMehwulfe]

I'd like a MMO to put a bit more focus on how and what items you use instead of mostly just their quality.

Consider an FPS: some quality differences, but for the most part, it's about switching between the right tool for the job.

You can still have your progression, but instead of one awesome sword-of-do-everything, you have 5 or 6 weapons that about took the same time to earn/raid/whatever. Leave most in your bank, and take 2-3 out to battle, choose your armor type based on your role for the evening, and then how you apply them to the battle is where you get to add some skill and tactical depth. Again, similar to how knowing the best weapon for a situation in a broad FPS can do the same.

[cmlancas]

I'd like a MMO to put a bit more focus on how and what items you use instead of mostly just their quality.

Consider an FPS: some quality differences, but for the most part, it's about switching between the right tool for the job.

You can still have your progression, but instead of one awesome sword-of-do-everything, you have 5 or 6 weapons that about took the same time to earn/raid/whatever. Leave most in your bank, and take 2-3 out to battle, choose your armor type based on your role for the evening, and then how you apply them to the battle is where you get to add some skill and tactical depth. Again, similar to how knowing the best weapon for a situation in a broad FPS can do the same.

Didn't VG try this and miserably fail?

[Nerf]

I don't remember anything like that in vanguard at all.  IIRC it didn't matter one bit if you were using slashing/piercing/blunt/etc.
VG failed because they released an unstable game with no real story and a treadmill from hell, and that carrot in front you? Turd painted orange.

[cmlancas]

I don't remember anything like that in vanguard at all.  IIRC it didn't matter one bit if you were using slashing/piercing/blunt/etc.
VG failed because they released an unstable game with no real story and a treadmill from hell, and that carrot in front you? Turd painted orange.

I'm talking in Beta. There was a system in place that had a dynamic combat wounding system. You could aim for certain bodyparts and whatnot and in turn do damage accordingly.

I also remember some Aradune Mithara posts that had to do with people carrying around multiple sets of gear for different combat roles. This never made it to launch either: The horses were supposed to be able to carry a big set of gear, but unfortunately the only bags you could feasibly put on your horse with a decent amount of playtime was a 16slot. That about covered one set of gear with no real place to put your cash loot for repairs.

In other words, it was horribly broken and never really worked.

[Lindorn]

5. Never reveal all of the loot in the game. Ever. Always keep the player guessing. The moment he knows the best loot, there's no reason to play your game.

This rule in particular is a good one to stick by, and overall the rest are pretty good guidelines for loot systems.  However, the problem with this mentality in general is that it almost puts a focus on "loot".  While I do think that items are an integral part of any good MMORPG, I think that where their importance should be stressed in MMOG's is as a means to an end as opposed to an end itself.  Gear is the primary driving force and like you said, if players know the "best loot" there is no reason to play your game.

Well, if you want to talk about the real problem with the MMOG or the loot system then the below needs to be fixed.

The moment he knows the best loot, there's no reason to play your game.

This is where some innovation needs to be made.  The truly pathetic thing about mainstream MMOG design is the fact that the focus of our games still lies in the realm of the trite, monotonous, and pointless.  This is even while gamers everywhere are expressing their desire for more depth.

Good discussion.