NASA - Water still flowing on mars

[sigil]

Before Mars Global Surveyor  bought the farm, It found evidence of new Sediment deposits


So?

Well the sample return mission definitely happens now, and it seems a lot more likely that we will indeed be sending a manned expedition there sometime in the next quarter century.

[tazelbain]

We haven't lost any rovers to the sandworms.  So that's good news too.

[Roac]

Woh.  If that conclusion holds up to scrutiny, that would be the biggest announcement from Mars ever.  More so than that meteorite, by far.  This could be a big, big deal. 

[SurfD]

and it seems a lot more likely that we will indeed be sending a manned expedition there sometime in the next quarter century.

Refresh my memory, whats the expected time interval for a trip from earth to mars?  I would hate to be whoever the pioneering individual(s) are who get stuck with the job of that round trip.

[Cheddar]

and it seems a lot more likely that we will indeed be sending a manned expedition there sometime in the next quarter century.

Refresh my memory, whats the expected time interval for a trip from earth to mars?  I would hate to be whoever the pioneering individual(s) are who get stuck with the job of that round trip.

With current technology, 2 years one way.

[Strazos]

Pfft, where's our quantum jumpdrives, bitches? 

[stray]

The way technology is going, it's more feasible to evolve AI to the point where it could carry out a mission like this with competence rather than expect to send human beings in an excruciating flight using bullshit propulsion engines. They'd probably die from madness before they even got there. And even if they did make it there, they would't amount to shit when they landed.

[Ironwood]

Woh.  If that conclusion holds up to scrutiny, that would be the biggest announcement from Mars ever.  More so than that meteorite, by far.  This could be a big, big deal. 

I thought the whole 'We Found Life' thing was more important....

[Murgos]

I've seen the plans for the next gen CEV (Crew Exploration Vehicle).  No one could survive 2 years trapped in that thing, much less with 5 other people (which is what the current design calls for).  There is about as much free room as a standard office cubicle.

[Sky]

Just send mmo players.

[bhodi]

we just need engines that can accelerate at 1g for long periods of time ;)

[Righ]

Woh.  If that conclusion holds up to scrutiny, that would be the biggest announcement from Mars ever.  More so than that meteorite, by far.  This could be a big, big deal. 

I thought the whole 'We Found Life' thing was more important....

The meteorite may have had examples of micro-bacterial fossils, the first example of extra-terrestrial life. However, most current interpretations suggest that this is not the case. And while "we found the fossils of prehistoric life" was a big deal, the claim that "we found currently flowing water" is likely bigger. Unless it turns out that its some other liquid, theres a very good chance that the conditions exist on Mars to harbour life today. Should we have discovered free flowing water, one of the arguments against the positive results obtained by the Viking labeled release experiment in 1976 will evaporate (sorry).

http://mars.spherix.com/lifemars/lifemars.htm

[Righ]

I've seen the plans for the next gen CEV (Crew Exploration Vehicle).  No one could survive 2 years trapped in that thing, much less with 5 other people (which is what the current design calls for).  There is about as much free room as a standard office cubicle.

On the plus side, you'll always be able to find your stapler.

[sinij]

Just send mmo players.

LOL!

[WayAbvPar]

Just send mmo players.

LOL!

Heh. You know NASA could engineer up a hell of a poopsock.

[HaemishM]

I for one welcome our new liquid Martian overlords.

[Ironwood]

The meteorite may have had examples of micro-bacterial fossils, the first example of extra-terrestrial life. However, most current interpretations suggest that this is not the case.

Really ?  Drat.

I was actually asking.  Fair enough.

[Morat20]

I've seen the plans for the next gen CEV (Crew Exploration Vehicle).  No one could survive 2 years trapped in that thing, much less with 5 other people (which is what the current design calls for).  There is about as much free room as a standard office cubicle.

That's not what it's designed for. Despite the name, it's a launch/entry vehicle only. There's a few Mars plans on the table, but all require the construction of a larger vessel for the actual trip. The CEV is just for getting to that vessel, and down to the planet.

Personally, the best Mars plan to my mind is called (I think) Mars Plus. Designed for permanent and expanded habitation, and with massively decreasing costs over time:

An Earth/Mars vehicle, travelling in a two year orbit between planets. All it does it loop back and forth. Gives the astronauts a larger, safer vehicle to stay in during the trip.

A lot of unmanned cargo packages to Mars -- including return vehicles, fuel factories, and consumables.

The basic idea is simple -- you don't load a crew to head to Mars until they have two years worth of supplies and two launch vehicles already on Mars and fueling. Fuel, consumables, and launch vehicles are sent steadily -- there should always be two ready to launch on Mars and one schedule to arrive before the crew is ready to depart (Triple backup, basically).

You send a crew -- takes them a year to get there. They spend two years on Mars while the bus heads back to Earth -- where another crew gets on. Basically, after the first trip the bus would have a full complement each way (an arriving crew and a returning crew), which means you'd have a steady presence on Mars. The unmanned packages and such means you're really only carrying people and supplies for the trip -- and a way down -- on a manrated vehicle. You could expand the base constantly, upgrading and adding new capabilities. If you wanted to add more crew, you'd assemble another bus.

The biggest price is the Earth/Mars vehicle. Has to be big, overengineered, and have some sort of nod towards keeping the astronauts fit in zero-g (Spin at least somewhere) -- as well as a way to handle solar flares and the like. Everything else you send via unmanned cargo. Which means it's cheaper (man-rating a craft is the expensive part. Both in money and weight), you can send multiples, etc.

They're looking at using the Moon to cut costs further -- first to serve as a test bed for some of these ideas, but mostly in the hopes of manufacturing fuel there. It's much cheaper to loft propellent off the moon than lug all that dead weight off of earth.

[Yoru]

Bring back Orion, bitches.

[Morat20]

Bring back Orion, bitches.

Wasteful. Ion drive is better, if you have the time to build up to speed.

[Murgos]

I've seen the plans for the next gen CEV (Crew Exploration Vehicle).  No one could survive 2 years trapped in that thing, much less with 5 other people (which is what the current design calls for).  There is about as much free room as a standard office cubicle.

That's not what it's designed for. Despite the name, it's a launch/entry vehicle only. There's a few Mars plans on the table, but all require the construction of a larger vessel for the actual trip. The CEV is just for getting to that vessel, and down to the planet.

One of guys who worked on the bid for my dept of my company's portion of the CEV is in the cubicle next to me (the winning bid, I might add) at my Florida office.

The current plan is that the CEV carries everyone to Mars.  It was probably bid this way just to get the CEV built and then later a study will say it is infeasible to cram 6 people into it for 2+ years and lets explore other options.

Any other vehicles at this point are purely hypothetical.

[Yegolev]

My ideas are rock-solid.  Moonbase.  That's an investment in future space travel.  From there you can build a great startport for rocket launches and build a railgun too.  Lots of sunlight for electricity.  Lots of moondirt for concrete.  From there, it will be easy to do all sorts of things, unlike that useless space station.

[Yoru]

Bring back Orion, bitches.

Wasteful. Ion drive is better, if you have the time to build up to speed.

Orion gets you there in 3 months. Time is kind of a key component when transporting crew, since it dictates the amount of supplies you have to keep on-board.

Also, nukes, keke.   

[Teleku]

My ideas are rock-solid.  Moonbase.  That's an investment in future space travel.  From there you can build a great startport for rocket launches and build a railgun too.  Lots of sunlight for electricity.  Lots of moondirt for concrete.  From there, it will be easy to do all sorts of things, unlike that useless space station.

Agreed.  Working on colonizing the moon should be a major priority over anything Mars.  Alot easier to build stuff and launch it from the moon than earth (at least once you get the facilities).  Its a great place to actually test shit out as well, instead of waiting till you get to mars to find out the bugs.

Hey Murgos, how cost effective is the new CEV (I believe its being named Orion?) compared to the shuttle?  If you happen to know.  I recall that the shuttle costs a metric ass ton of money to launch everytime, so it would be nice if this time around they found a cheeper option to extend funds farther.

[Merusk]

Just send mmo players.

Damnit, Sky, you stole my joke.  Of course, I was going to reference Vanguard in particular.


This is very cool news, though.  Maybe it'll keep the whole 'moonbase -> Mars' thing on track.

[Murgos]

Hey Murgos, how cost effective is the new CEV (I believe its being named Orion?) compared to the shuttle?  If you happen to know.  I recall that the shuttle costs a metric ass ton of money to launch everytime, so it would be nice if this time around they found a cheeper option to extend funds farther.

The CEV should be much cheaper to operate than the shuttle, it's a far, far simpler device mechanically.  It's not a space plane design at all, it goes back to the capsule basics of the 60's and 70's just in a bigger scale.

Overall cost depends on how reusable they can get the CLV really.  The goal with the CLV is to fully use KISS for safety and cost reasons, there was just a big test of a reusable solid fuel rocket motor though so things look promising there.

http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2006/nov/HQ_06356_Ares_Shuttle_Motor_Test.html

My group has minimal exposure to the CLV, I really don't have access to any details.

[Morat20]

I've seen the plans for the next gen CEV (Crew Exploration Vehicle).  No one could survive 2 years trapped in that thing, much less with 5 other people (which is what the current design calls for).  There is about as much free room as a standard office cubicle.

That's not what it's designed for. Despite the name, it's a launch/entry vehicle only. There's a few Mars plans on the table, but all require the construction of a larger vessel for the actual trip. The CEV is just for getting to that vessel, and down to the planet.

One of guys who worked on the bid for my dept of my company's portion of the CEV is in the cubicle next to me (the winning bid, I might add) at my Florida office.

The current plan is that the CEV carries everyone to Mars.  It was probably bid this way just to get the CEV built and then later a study will say it is infeasible to cram 6 people into it for 2+ years and lets explore other options.

Any other vehicles at this point are purely hypothetical.

As best I understand it, no one at NASA takes that seriously. The CEV is fully intended to be a launch and orbit vehicle only. If they ARE planning to take it to Mars, then they must be planning to make it with something launched off the new heavy-lift vehicle. There is not enough room on the CEV for even one person and the supplies for a Mars trip.

I could see it being used to maybe make the moon.....are you sure you heard right?

Then again, NASA does have a variety of plans -- they're depending on Congressional funding and decisions. Everyone here would prefer the long-term plan -- more expense up front, but about 10 times the bang per dollar. Congress, on the other hand, might prefer the almost-as-expensive useless one-shot that's basically glorified PR.

As for being bid that: Yeah, that doesn't surprise me. The mandate is currently for Moon, then Mars. What NASA really needs is a reliable manned lifter, and a reliable cargo lifter. Cheaper, safer, and faster than the shuttle. The CEV is going to be built for that purpose, 'cause then if they shitcan the Moon or Mars mission, NASA's still good for earth-orbit stuff.

[Murgos]

All I'm saying is that there aren't even RFPs (that I know of) for extra modules to take people to Mars.

[Morat20]

All I'm saying is that there aren't even RFPs (that I know of) for extra modules to take people to Mars.

I'd have been surprised if there was. Mars is something like 20 years down the line. Work is just now starting on the CEV -- and the stated goal of the CEV, at least according to everyone here (IE: People currently dealing with shuttle and station) is that the CEV is a replacement for the shuttle. CEV = manned, and the new Ares thingy is the unmanned (about 100 tons cargo).  It'll fly, supposedly, by 2012 or so.

Mars stuff shouldn't hit the RFP stage for a decade -- other than for things like feasability studies, and NASA has a shit ton of them already.

[Murgos]

No RFP?  Like I said, purely hypothetical.

[Morat20]

"...develop and test a new spacecraft, the Crew Exploration Vehicle, by 2008, and to conduct the first manned mission no later than 2014. The Crew Exploration Vehicle will be capable of ferrying astronauts and scientists to the Space Station after the shuttle is retired. But the main purpose of this spacecraft will be to carry astronauts beyond our orbit to other worlds..."

I see the confusion. The CEV is being developed in stages -- I snagged the details off Wikipedia, since the folks I normally would check with are a bit busy. (My shift is second week of flight).

Stage I: Manned lifter capable of reaching LEO and docking with station. That's the CEV version in works now. (Also called, for reasons I don't know, Block I or something like it). Supposed to be deployed 2012 at the latest, to minimize the gap between the last shuttle flight and the first CEV flight. It will have NO capabilities past LEO.
Stage II: (Block II) -- The CEV is upgraded (but has to have the same basic size/shape/weight of Block I -- which means some of this is in the stage I requirements) for longer-duration flight. They're doing this via modules -- CEV is too small and lacks the ability to land on the Moon or Mars, much less the ability to take back off. Habitation and propulsion are two of the modules needed.
Stage III: Landers for the Moon/Mars. (Which includes ascent, of course).

CEV proper's job is to launch people off the Earth and into LEO. CEV Block II must also be able to dock with objects other than ISS, and part of that design will BE those objects -- habitation, propulsion, consumables, etc. In short -- CEV can't go to the fucking Moon, in any stage. But it'll be capable of docking with modules that can.