Am I Hot Or Not?

[Yoru]

Ship: Apocalypse

High-Slots ( 8 )
8 x 1400mm 'Howitzer' Artillery I (Fusion L/EMP L/Nuclear L/Depleted Uranium L, depending on situation)

Mid-Slots ( 4 )
2 x Invulnerability Field I (passive shield tank ftw)
1 x Scan Booster I (I can lock things now!)
1 x Tracking Computer I

Low-Slots ( 7 )
2x Nanofiber Internal Structure I (turning speed!)
1 x Tracking Enhancer I
2 x Power Diagnostic Unit I
1 x Gyrostabilizer I
1 x Medium Armor Repairer I (had a spare slot, I guess... maybe another Gyrostab or TE?)

Drones: 2 x Hammerhead/Valkyrie, 3 x Hobgoblin/Warrior, depending on what I have available

That's what I've been using for ratting.

Here's what I'm thinking for PVP, medium-range DPS.

High-Slots ( 8 )
6 x 1400mm 'Howitzer' Artillery I (EMP L or DU L)
1 x Cruise Missile Launcher I or Siege Launcher I (Paradise or Mjolnir)
1 x Heavy Nos

Med-Slots ( 4 )
2 x Scan Booster I (must lock now!)
2 x Tracking Computer I (must hit now!)

Low-Slots ( 7 )
1 x Nanofiber Internal Structure (still need that turning speed)
2 x Gyrostabilizer II (or I, IIs are kind of expensive...)
1 x Power Diagnostic Unit I
1 x Large Armor Repairer
2 x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane I (refit to be an armor tank, tho my skills suck)

Drones: 5x Hammerhead w/ 5x Hobgoblin as backup

Yes, I'm a complete mongrel when it comes to skills. I could use railguns or lasers, but those don't drop on the rats around here. :)

[Wolf]

Dude. You're weird. Meditate on this, I must. First thought was "Get a tempest".

[Strazos]

Last I checked, Invuln fields were Active Hardeners.

Just sayin'.

[Wolf]

Last I checked, Invuln fields were Active Hardeners.

Just sayin'.

When a caldari fool says "Passive tank" he means that he doesn't have a shield repper (whatever that's called... booster?) and he only relies on the passive regen of shields.

[Strazos]

You say fool now, until you have a "Caldari fool" shoving missiles down your throat. 

[Yegolev]

Your avatar is very distracting.

Anyway, not that I have gotten out of Ammar frigates, but I find it interesting you are using projectile.

[Merusk]

Like I said last night, I was pondering doing a similar thing myself.   My reasoning was that Amarr have a nice HUGE powergrid and a very large Capacitor.  Since Projs don't use Cap when firing, this means more room for my toys to work (E-war and reppers.) with a nice buffer from NOS attack.

  Now, one problem I can see right-off in your PvP setup is 1) no stabs.  If things go south you're definatly dying.  Only reason I was able to jump as many times as I did last night was I had 3X stabs.  2) You've got a couple of huge resist holes.  In a B-ship vs B-ship battle you're losing and they won't even have to swap ammo.

[Yegolev]

Like I said last night, I was pondering doing a similar thing myself.   My reasoning was that Amarr have a nice HUGE powergrid and a very large Capacitor.  Since Projs don't use Cap when firing, this means more room for my toys to work (E-war and reppers.) with a nice buffer from NOS attack.

These are great points and I was thinking about it myself, but of course Fen Hu is skilled for Small Energy.  I assume the benefits of lasers mostly center around not needing ammo?  Now is a good time to pick a direction for her, rather than wait until she's invested in Med or Large lasers.

[dwindlehop]

The unmodified DPS of lasers is fantastic. The unmodified DPS of proj turrets is sucktastic. Lasers suck grid and cap, especially tachyons. You need the ship bonuses of Minmater ships to get good DPS out of proj turrets. Proj turrets goodness lies in their flexibliity; you get to choose the damage type, and, in minmater ships, usually the range. The big arty guns (1400, 720) have 5.75x damage modifier (6.9 scouts or t2) which means in the first volley or three, you outdamage everyone else, though.

PvE: Target Painter plus Tracking Comp stack really well, might be worth it. Also, you've got the cap to run that rep, why not fill those med slots with tracking/painters and put some resists on your armor?

PvP: 1600 mm plate!

[dwindlehop]

Here's what I was thinking for PvP gank. It'll take forever before I get the cash for this, but I will eventually.

HIGH-SLOTS :
~~~~~~~~~~~~
> [3250 |   36] 1400mm Howitzer Artillery I [12xCarbonized Lead L]
> [3250 |   36] 1400mm Howitzer Artillery I [12xCarbonized Lead L]
> [3250 |   36] 1400mm Howitzer Artillery I [12xCarbonized Lead L]
> [3250 |   36] 1400mm Howitzer Artillery I [12xCarbonized Lead L]
> [3250 |   36] 1400mm Howitzer Artillery I [12xCarbonized Lead L]
> [3250 |   36] 1400mm Howitzer Artillery I [12xCarbonized Lead L]
> [3250 |   36] 1400mm Howitzer Artillery I [12xCarbonized Lead L]
> [3250 |   36] 1400mm Howitzer Artillery I [12xCarbonized Lead L]


MED-SLOTS :
~~~~~~~~~~~
> [   1 |   10] Sensor Booster II
> [   1 |   10] Sensor Booster II
> [   1 |   35] Tracking Computer I
> [   1 |   35] Tracking Computer I


LOW-SLOTS :
~~~~~~~~~~~
> [   0 |   18] Reactor Control Unit I
> [ 500 |   30] 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates I
> [   1 |   10] Tracking Enhancer I
> [   1 |   10] Tracking Enhancer I
> [   1 |   30] Gyrostabilizer I
> [   1 |   30] Gyrostabilizer I
> [   1 |   30] Gyrostabilizer I

Also a possiblity is dropping two tracking enh and putting on two med armor rep. Two med rep is as good as a large but for a fraction of the grid. Painter is probably a good idea, too.

[Strazos]

Proj turrets goodness lies in their flexibliity; you get to choose the damage type, and, in minmater ships, usually the range.

I thought you could choose laser damage as well by swapping crystals?

[dwindlehop]

You got your choice of EM or EM+thermal.

[Wolf]

  Now, one problem I can see right-off in your PvP setup is 1) no stabs.  If things go south you're definatly dying.  Only reason I was able to jump as many times as I did last night was I had 3X stabs.

EVERY TIME YOU FIT A STAB GOD KILLS A KITTEN! OR FIVE!

Seriously, stabs are sucktastic - yes you survive... instead of killing the enemy or tanking properly. Seriously, I can't think of a ship I'd fit stabs on if I intend to do any sort of fighting. Yes - I wouldn't on a Vaga, too.

To Yoru - tbh, I've heard about the Projectiles on a Apoc deal about NPCing. A corp mate was talking about doing it, but with autocannons. So I guess you could test it - if it works, great. But in PvP I'd use lasers, just for the sake of people not laughing at me :P

I should STFU, I know jack shit about Amarr ships and lasers. My point about stabs stands.

[Merusk]

I like my stabs, and kittens, meh there's always more.

When people stop running in groups of 12 to take out one opponent, I'll stop fitting stabs.  I'm shield tanking anyway, and the bonuses granted by more RCUs, Gyros, or Tracking Enhancers aren't enough to make a significant difference.

[Yoru]

Dude. You're weird. Meditate on this, I must. First thought was "Get a tempest".

I'm not training up a third race's battleship skill. If anything, once I can afford to float a mining ship separately from a fighting ship, I'll be supplementing my mining apoc with a nice big missile-lobbing raven.

The loadout is meant to fight Archangel rats, which have low explosive/kinetic resists and do primarily explosive/kinetic damage. The fusion and nuclear ammo do almost entirely exp/kin, and my shields have a high native resist against kin/exp - thus, with two active hardeners, I barely take 20 damage for an 'excellent hit' from their 500k BS rats.

You got your choice of EM or EM+thermal.

Which is why I'm not using lasers; EM/thermal resists on Archangel rats are way too high to make these viable. All the 'extra base damage' I'd get would be withered away against 70-90% resists instead of 40-50% resists.

Like I said last night, I was pondering doing a similar thing myself.   My reasoning was that Amarr have a nice HUGE powergrid and a very large Capacitor.  Since Projs don't use Cap when firing, this means more room for my toys to work (E-war and reppers.) with a nice buffer from NOS attack.

  Now, one problem I can see right-off in your PvP setup is 1) no stabs.  If things go south you're definatly dying.  Only reason I was able to jump as many times as I did last night was I had 3X stabs.  2) You've got a couple of huge resist holes.  In a B-ship vs B-ship battle you're losing and they won't even have to swap ammo.

I'm still pondering whether to toss a stab or two on by pulling off the nanofibers. It'd take longer to warp and align, but I suppose if I stay aligned during the battle it's not that big of an issue. My gun skills still blow (450k - most of it in the different turret types; I have heavy hybrid/energy/projectile all trained :P ) so I have a relatively narrow range that I have to maintain to get decent damage. (I think I measured it last night at 25km to about 50km, with obvious transversal problems coming up at closer ranges.) I'd really rather use those slots for more gyrostabs, more armor resists or more tracking enhancers.

As for the resists, what do you suggest? So far in PVP I've been in an interceptor scouting, jamming or tackling, so tanking hasn't been an issue at all - if I attracted attention or let my jammers slip, I was raspberry syrup almost instantly. I tossed on those two energized armor resist boosters to try to get some decent armor resists; I was hoping that plus the large repper would at least hold off an attack. Fortunately, the projectile cannons mean my DPS is less vulnerable to Nossing - a heavy nos attack will shut off my repper first, then later my tracking computers.

These are great points and I was thinking about it myself, but of course Fen Hu is skilled for Small Energy.  I assume the benefits of lasers mostly center around not needing ammo?  Now is a good time to pick a direction for her, rather than wait until she's invested in Med or Large lasers.

It doesn't hurt to train up all the different turret types. With my stats, I was able to get to Small Turret 3 in 12 hours or less, and then Medium Turret 3 in a day or so. Flexibility is good!

Your avatar is very distracting.

Anyway, not that I have gotten out of Ammar frigates, but I find it interesting you are using projectile.

:mrgreen:

I use projectiles because (a) No cap = more cap for tanking, using active modules; (b) Archangel rats are what're in my neck of the woods, and they drop named projectiles. I intend to swap out my basic projectiles for named as I find them.

To Yoru - tbh, I've heard about the Projectiles on a Apoc deal about NPCing. A corp mate was talking about doing it, but with autocannons. So I guess you could test it - if it works, great. But in PvP I'd use lasers, just for the sake of people not laughing at me :P

I 'tested' it last night with a small gang of F13ers. It blew the socks off of the 1.2m and 500k BS rats we encountered. BC and cruiser rats shields, if I had proper range and low transversal, got knocked to shit in one volley.

As for PVP, I'm trying to keep the PVP and PVE builds relatively close when it comes to weapon loadout, since my wallet is still smarting from all this alliance crap and moving around. I'd rather not blow 10m on heavy nos/lasers only to get it popped in the first fleet battle - since that is what's likely to happen. :P

Besides, I think a small advantage of using an unconventional build is that the opponent might either be laughing too hard to fight right, or they won't immediately know WTF is going on with my build like they would a stock build, so my weaknesses might take a little while longer to search out.

[Wolf]

Seriously, stabs? No. Please. Or I'll cry. Like a little girl.

[Raging Turtle]

Apoc has 8 low slots.  There's some room for stabs along with a great tank. 

Also, your setup is crazy.  Get a solid armor tank on that boy.  And while lasers might take an extra minute to kill that bs spawn, they also don't consume any ammo, which is a big ++ in 0.0.   Doesn't Apoc have a bonus to large laser cap use anyway?

[Yoru]

Apoc has 8 low slots.  There's some room for stabs along with a great tank. 

Also, your setup is crazy.  Get a solid armor tank on that boy.  And while lasers might take an extra minute to kill that bs spawn, they also don't consume any ammo, which is a big ++ in 0.0.   Doesn't Apoc have a bonus to large laser cap use anyway?

Apoc has 7 low slots on the standard apoc. Navy issue Apoc has 8. :P

Apoc gets a -5% heavy laser cap use bonus per level of BS, and I have Amarr BS 2. -10% cap use isn't much. The other bonus it gets is +10% capacitor size per level, which doesn't necessitate laser use - everyone cap. As for ammo, I haven't had an issue yet. I've blown about 150k on ammo and made 3m off it, and I got more ammo off the stuff I blew up, so there'll be even more lead off that 150k.

For armor tanking... no need to do that while ratting the light stuff we've been hitting so far. Those two shield hardeners work like a dream; why let the rats get through the 60%-native shield explosive resist to the 20%-native armor explosive resist? Not like there's much else I want in my mid-slots; maybe more tracking computers and a painter, but I can get a painter drone and have a tracking comp already.

The lowslots are good for slapping in more gyrostabs (damage!) and tracking enhancers (accuracy!). I might just rip off the medium armor rep since it's not doing anything.

But yes, it is a very strange loadout. Maybe I should put some hybrid turrets or something in there too; they have a nice balance between cap use, range and damage.

[Roac]

Apoc gets a -5% heavy laser cap use bonus per level of BS, and I have Amarr BS 2. -10% cap use isn't much. The other bonus it gets is +10% capacitor size per level, which doesn't necessitate laser use

Sure that's right?  EveMon says it's the other way around, which gives you a -20% for lasers and only 10% cap, and if you're serious about wanting to roll with the Apoc, you should plan to get it to at least 3 before too long (it's only ~36h of training).

For armor tanking... no need to do that while ratting the light stuff we've been hitting so far. Those two shield hardeners work like a dream; why let the rats get through the 60%-native shield explosive resist to the 20%-native armor explosive resist?

You may want a shield booster.  Incase you run into larger rats (or want to), that will keep you from going to armor and burning 3x as much cap to keep repaired as it does shields charged.  If you don't want to go lasers and get the natural bonus, then at least this will be something you can spend what is the largest cap for any BS on.

[Yoru]

Apoc gets a -5% heavy laser cap use bonus per level of BS, and I have Amarr BS 2. -10% cap use isn't much. The other bonus it gets is +10% capacitor size per level, which doesn't necessitate laser use

Sure that's right?  EveMon says it's the other way around, which gives you a -20% for lasers and only 10% cap, and if you're serious about wanting to roll with the Apoc, you should plan to get it to at least 3 before too long (it's only ~36h of training).

For armor tanking... no need to do that while ratting the light stuff we've been hitting so far. Those two shield hardeners work like a dream; why let the rats get through the 60%-native shield explosive resist to the 20%-native armor explosive resist?

You may want a shield booster.  Incase you run into larger rats (or want to), that will keep you from going to armor and burning 3x as much cap to keep repaired as it does shields charged.  If you don't want to go lasers and get the natural bonus, then at least this will be something you can spend what is the largest cap for any BS on.

No, I'm not sure my quote on the bonuses is right; it's what I'm remembering offhand from looking briefly at them last night. As for training BS 3... probably not. I'm moving up towards Cloaking 4 next so I can use the covops cloak and be an invisible mote floating in space.

The shield booster is probably a good idea; I'll probably nuke the tracking computer or scan booster for that.

[Viin]

For what it's woth, I tried to do a shield regen/passive tank on my Ferox but it didn't work very well. Even when I cut the sheild regen time in half and had at least 1 invuln on, it wasn't enough to be any kind of good tank. The recharge rate just isn't there.

My shield booster + amps + extenders setup worked ok, but sucked my cap up pretty fast.

[Strazos]

Shield resist tank works pretty well on my Ferox. I load in 2 passive resist modules (1 for each damage type), plus a invuln field active hardener. With the resist-specific shield skills, plus Ferox bonuses, it works very well.

[Viin]

Shield resist tank works pretty well on my Ferox. I load in 2 passive resist modules (1 for each damage type), plus a invuln field active hardener. With the resist-specific shield skills, plus Ferox bonuses, it works very well.

That would work better than my setup - I was trying to get a high shield regen rate (passive) but that doesn't work very well. No, don't ask what I was thinking because I don't know.  :-D

[Sparky]

Seconding (thirding, forthing?) fit lasers on an Apoc, and an armour tank.  Even if the NPCs tank EM & Thermal well you'll make up for it after ship bonuses compared to unmodified guns.  Frankly that setup is just weird.  Try something more basic:

Mega Beams in high
2* tracking computer, sensor booster and cap recharger in mid
Large rep, 3 flavours of hardeners, cap power relay and 2 stabs in low (don't listen to the stab hayters - unless they're paying for your next ship)

Note I don't fly Amarr really but that should work better than howies on an Apoc.

[Wolf]

STABS. GIMP. YOUR. FITTING.

The sooner you realise that, the better off you will be.

Why not go:

6 Mega Pulse? (whatever the blaster equivalent is called) / 2 Heavy Nos
Whatever makes you happy and an AB/mwd
2 LAR, 4 Hardners and a Damage Control

[Sparky]

In my experience Eve PVP isn't usually decided by 20% extra effectiveness here or there (unless you're a belt pirate I guess), it's mostly overwhelming force, catching your enemies out and ganks.  Stabs give you the edge there deciding whether to engage or not.  Here's my PVP Raven just to really freak you out:

6 * cruise missile launchers, 2 * Heavy Nos
2 * Invulnerability Field, 1 * 'Anointed' EM hardener, 2 * sensor booster II, XL Shield booster II (forgot the booster - shit!)
4 * WCS (ha!), 1 * F85 damage control

5 medium drones

Never been ganked flying that because unless I fuck up horribly I can choose my battles.   Seriously those stabs have saved my ship so many times.

[Llyse]

All for your pve

 dump the armor rep for a stab, for pve

dump the invulnerabilitys for an explosive and a kinetic hardner for pve

if you're worried about getting rolled get an explosive and an em hardener

do you really need cap? If not dump the power diagnostics for shield power relays
reduce cap regen but 20% boost in shield regen ( how you really passive shield regen)

Otherwise good angel ratting build  :-D

[Malathor]

Ferox passive tanking:

2x Shield Power Relays
3x Large Shield Extenders II
2x Rat specific hardners for ratting or 2x Invuln Fields for PvP

With the rat specific hardners I have zero difficulty tanking the largest triple battleship spawns forever. Don't think that you can substitute the 2 shield power relays and the 3 tech 2 extenders with anything else, you drastically reduce your tanking ability. Shield Upgrades skill needs to be level 4 for the tech 2 extenders, Shield Operation needs to be at least level 4 as obviously shield regen is the key to the set up.

[dwindlehop]

Seconding (thirding, forthing?) fit lasers on an Apoc, and an armour tank.  Even if the NPCs tank EM & Thermal well you'll make up for it after ship bonuses compared to unmodified guns. 

There's no damage bonus on an Apoc; it's not the geddon.

[Wolf]

To derail a bit further - has anyone tried to rat in an Assault Frig?

I've got access to Guristas rats (they do kinetic dmg) and am thinking of trying this setup on an Ishkur (84ish Kinetic Resist):

3xLight Ion IIs / Small "Knave" Nos
1MN Afterburner II / some named Web / some named Cap Recharger
Small Repper II / 2xMag Stab II

3x Vespa IIs and a Hornet II (I think that'll give me much better DPS than 5 Lights)

I was initally going to go with one mag stab, mapc and Neutrons but guildies said Neutrons eat too much cap.

Will that give me better dps than an Enyo with 4 Ion's and two mag stabs?

[Sparky]

Seconding (thirding, forthing?) fit lasers on an Apoc, and an armour tank.  Even if the NPCs tank EM & Thermal well you'll make up for it after ship bonuses compared to unmodified guns. 

There's no damage bonus on an Apoc; it's not the geddon.

You're right... just a cap bonus.  But still howies on a ship that doesn't get the ROF bonus are horrible.

[MahrinSkel]

A big factor is that if you're facing laser boats, you know they're going to be doing EM/Thermal damage and can tank appropriately, but you never know what you're going to get against a artillery ship except that it will include some Kinetic.

The "alpha strike" power of projectiles is also very high, if your engagement plan includes wtfpwning smaller ships, there's no replacement for Howitzers.

--Dave