Elementalist Video

[trias_e]

This is a video of me running around with my elementalist mage having quite a bit of fun in CTF.  I know the non-arcane spec is blasphemy, but its actually quite good in certain situations, mainly that its damage does not rely on any long timers and it snares the crap out of people.

Get it here,
http://files.filefront.com/an_elementalist_in_warsong/;3931579;;/fileinfo.html
or here,
http://www.rpgfilms.net/nuke/modules.php?name=Downloads&op=getit&lid=820

[MrHat]

Sexy mods, what you using?

Also, what mage setup are you? (talent wise)

[trias_e]

I'm basically just using the latest cosmos and a couple random things I've picked up that may or may not be out of date...

Spec:


Frost Talents (27 points)

# Permafrost - 5/5 points
Increases the duration of your chill effects by 3 seconds.

# Improved Frost Nova - 2/2 points
Reduces the cooldown of your Frost Nova spell by 4 seconds.

# Winter's Chill - 2/3 points
Increases the power of your chill effects by slowing the target's movement by an additional 7%.

# Ice Shards - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Frost spells by 100%.

# Cold Snap - 1/1 point
When activated, this spell finishes the cooldown on all of your frost spells.

# Improved Blizzard - 3/3 points
Adds a chill effect to your Blizzard spell. This effect lowers the target's movement speed to 35% of normal. Lasts 1.50 seconds.

# Shatter - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your frost spells against frozen targets by 50%.

# Ice Block - 1/1 point
You become encased in a block of ice, protecting you from all physical attacks and spells for 10 seconds, but during that time you cannot attack, move, or cast spells.

# Improved Cone of Cold - 3/3 points
Increases the damage dealt by your Cone of Cold spell by 35%.



Fire Talents (24 points)

# Impact - 5/5 points
Gives your fire spells a 10% chance to stun the taget for 2 seconds.

# Ignite - 5/5 points
Your critical strikes from fire damage spells cause the target to burn for an additional 40% of your spell's damage over 4 seconds.

# Flame Throwing - 2/2 points
Increases the range of your fire spells by 6 yards.

# Improved Fire Blast - 3/5 points
Reduces the cooldown of your Fire Blast spell by 1 second.

# Incinerate - 2/2 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Fire Blast and Scorch spells by 4%.

# Improved Flamestrike - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Flamestrike spell by 15%.

# Blast Wave - 1/1 point
A wave of flame radiates outward from the caster, damaging all enemies caught within the blast for 176.0 to 211.2 fire damage, and dazing them for 6 seconds.

# Critical Mass - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your fire spells by 6%.



The only thing I would change with this spec is next time I'd go 4/5 imp. frostbolt, 1/5 permafrost (partly for PvE reasons, it's nice for MC)

[jpark]

My friend has long been ahead of the pack of mage thinking here.  For several months he has been a PURE frost mage.

So now mages are beginning to realize that beyond the "skilled" use of arcane, maybe a bit of frost is in order - maybe with fire.  So this is called "elementalist".

I don't play a mage - Grind - who on rare occassions posts here - does.  Grind wondors how many more damn months it will take the "arcane for the massess crowd" to realize that full frost is quite powerful - and frost only. 

Mages, like most classes, have such a hard on for dps they can't see the forest through the trees.  Pure frost can give you dps as Grind as shown - but with * gasp * strategic options.  Not just in Warsong - but in pve instances.

[Phred]

My friend has long been ahead of the pack of mage thinking here.  For several months he has been a PURE frost mage.

So now mages are beginning to realize that beyond the "skilled" use of arcane, maybe a bit of frost is in order - maybe with fire.  So this is called "elementalist".

I don't play a mage - Grind - who on rare occassions posts here - does.  Grind wondors how many more damn months it will take the "arcane for the massess crowd" to realize that full frost is quite powerful - and frost only. 

Mages, like most classes, have such a hard on for dps they can't see the forest through the trees.  Pure frost can give you dps as Grind as shown - but with * gasp * strategic options.  Not just in Warsong - but in pve instances.

The main problem with Ice mages is they need a lot of room to move to be effective, as their "skill" relys on the snare effect of blizzard to do their ae damage. The problem with that is, the same as hunters, backing into agro. Early instances tend to have tighter quarters and less room to back up, making instant ae a much more effective spell for handling large groups. Most mages I know have respec'd to ice builds later on as the later instances tend to give a lot more room to move, and everyone seems to think ice spells are much more effective in the molten core and onxyia fights.

[jpark]

Space up to Mauradon instances so far has not been a problem.  It's not just root - it is also blizzard with the reduced movement rate that gives crowd control.  Also, not sure of the timer, but their ability to go into a block of ice is great for doing damage and then shaking aggro instantly.

Hands down the mages with the best control of their aggro with contribution to crowd control are ice mages.

[Sogrinaugh]

Well i was pure frost up to level 52, and it was the reason i started a priest, around level 43 i just hated my character.  I started leveling my mage again only after my priest surpassed him in levels, as a way of maximizing my rested exp on both.  In a moment of dispair, i respec in an effort to salvage all the time i felt i had wasted on this mage whom i really didnt like.

The difference in terms of my pvp performance with 28/23 arc/fire vs all-frost was... chasmic.  My mage was 49 when the honor system hit, and it braugh  no small amount of pain to my leveling.  I went to extreme lengths to keep my clothy ass hidden from prying barman shankers, quitly grinding away in little nooks and cranies of felwood, winterspring and EPL.  However, once i respec, when i did run into say, random_paladin_42673781, i could WTFPWN his fag ass with this build, same gg for (most) rogues.  The rogues that did get me where extremely close fights (when they didnt outlevel me 4+).  The only class i felt completely powerless against was druids.  For me, the bottom line is pvp is very rarely 1v1, i dont pay a monthly fee so i can go over in this private corner of the world and grind away by myself.  I group with friends whenever possible, chat it up with passersby, and group if we are doing anything similar, or even if they just need help with a quest im familiar with.  Thierfore, those frostbite procs were never of much use, about the only time i got a chance to shatter (talent that gives +50% crit chance vs frozen targets) is with ye old FN  + FB + CoC combo, and all that time, effort, and mana doesn't really result in as much damage as an equivalent use of those same resources on fire spells.  Yes the snares frost gives are nice, but imo don't do enough to compensate for the loss of damage.

On the pve side, well frost is  unequivocably better for mc and onyxia, and i haven recently been under some pressure to respec as i am often not in the top 10 of the damage meters as often as i should.  However, even in this case, you'd still have 21-31 in arcane, i have yet to meet an end-game mage who can go the long boss fights without evocation, or who thinks frost barrier is superior to presence of mind.

As to the original topic, im quit surprised you dont have 5/5 improved frostbolt for a pvp elementalist.  It would give you a level 1 frostbolt that has a 1 second cast time, which is awesome for ctf.  I have 0 points in frost and i still use level 1 frostbolt vs rogues and warriors in pvp, as well as flagbearers in ctf.  Not sure where you'd take the points from, since your build seems to indicate you use frost for damage, i'd look at how much value you're really getting from the shatter/ice shards thing.  Taking points out of Permafrost when you have blizzard seems crazy imo, since you are quadrupaling your snare duration thier, that combo is just too good.  I had thought about an elementalist build myself, but i would become drastically less useful in MC without evocation so that has kept me from it.

[trias_e]

Actually the snare duration from blizzard can be a hinderance, because I can't CoC and have the snare stick until the blizzard snare goes away.

I plan on respeccing pretty soon and going 4/5 imp. frostbolt, 1/5 permafrost, 1/3 winter's chill, 1/2 arctic reach.

As far as not having evocation goes, I can still do pretty well, but its true on really long fights like say garr I get into trouble and have to wand for 10-30 seconds.  I've actually yet to do onyxia.

[Grind]

I would argue that:
In PvE, the most important issue is aggro control... then dps etc.
In PvP, the most important issue is survivability, then ranged dps and strategic options, etc.

Since everyone has the same set of base spells, your effectiveness in the above comes from skill specialization and equipment and of course how well you use them.

There may be new build alternatives being tried, but I think that most mages are fixated on fire/arcane and focus on int and then stamina gear. All other builds are in a minority to this one, especially for AoEing and solo strategies.

That being said, mages place their value on dps, then survivability via hps. Your 'strategic' options are: front load damage using sheep, try to outnuke, or blow your wad with arcane aoe and hope that you had enough damage to kill the mobs since the warrior has lost all aggro control at that point or if in pvp, your enemy's did not disperse and stayed within a very tight radius around you in battle so that you could run away with low/no mana (and thus no mana shielding either) to safety if they did not die.

In contrast, I would argue that pure frost is a superior build for a number of issues:

- it has higher aggro control. You can root, slow, and can draw as much aggro as you want with aoe's since you can instantly give the back instantly to the warrior using ice block. In fact, you can do that TWICE in battle using cold snap before calmly going back to attacking the tanks target in a nicely controlled manner. In addition, you could aoe again another two times if you did not mind aggro and wanted to root and use frost shielding twice in combat as well. Nope, close quarter combat in aoes is not an issue. In PVP settings, the very large area of which blizzard effects can encompass whole rooms and slow the enemy down enough for another to kill and you can run away casting up to two roots to stop pursuers.

- it has higher survivability. What would you rather have, 50% more hps or the ability to be IMMUNE twice in combat to incoming damage while still being able to be healed....let alone rooting and snaring with EVERY attack or when someone melees you and having an additional two ice shields and mana shield at your disposal. You have such a low hp pool to begin with, that anything going through your hps currently will only take another round or two with 50% more hps. In short, damage avoidance > damage mitigation with such a low hp pooled char.

- it has lower mana costs. Focusing on lower cost single target attacks to begin with, you can get a talent that reduces all costs guaranteed by 15%. Clearcast is a 10% benefit and may be slightly higher if you are lucky enough that your free attack is a large cost one that is appropriate for the situation. Guaranteed 15% > Clearcast in my opinion.

- dps is actually comparable to a fire/arcane mage from two sources. First is that with each freezing, you get a dramatic increase in your critical rate, i.e. you are at over 50% on this. AND your damage when criticalling is not 50% increase but 100% i.e. doubling. With two frost mages in group, the criticals happen so often that you can actually count on them in each battle. It is truely powerful. The second source is from equipment (see next point).

- Once you accept a mage that has lower hps and mana pool you are free to do two things with equipment that has a cumulating effect:

1. You can increase your dps using +frost gear. Couple this with higher, more damaging criticals....well it is a cumulating effect that dramatically increaseses overall dps. The fact that I can have TWO epic rings stacking (freezing bands) is really nice. I get very surprised queries from other fire/arcane mages when they track the group's dps via recap whether on single target mob killing (due to higher fast attack frost bolt that is highly augmented) or on aoes using aoe strategies talked about above. Since they can blow their entire mana pool to damage faster than I and before the mob dies, they tend to have about a 20% higher dungeon based dps than me, but the warrior and priest love me more in group then them, that I can guarantee.

2. You can increase your mana effectiveness. Given that your spells are of lower cost than fire and that you have a guaranteed 15% reduction on those costs, focusing on mana regen gear has a clear benefit. For long boss mob fights, or for pvp encounters where you may be drained of mana, wearing mana regen gear (ghost armor, rod from Maraudon, and mana regen necklace) keeps me casting frost bolts in all its augmented glory every so many ticks. Continued casting means I am still a threat and more effective in those encounters than mages that when they run out.... well are out of options. If you have never tried this equipment in quantity you should, it is working quite well.

Since frost is a cumulative tree, i.e. the more points in it, the more effects are all going off and effecting your dps and aggro control, deep frost mages are more effective than otherwise. In fact, having more than one frost mage in group is simply fun to have. Lots of mobs frozen, slowed and being criticaled for decent amounts of damage let me tell ya.

I believe that the reason why Blizzard is nerfing frost mages lately is for the same reason the elementalists in shadowbane were nerfed, high amounts of ranged damage with a root/slow built in is very uber. You will notice that all +frost gear is much less +damage then either arcane or fire based equipment of the same level.... ramping up +frost damage chars dps is noteworthy.

Cheers,

Grind
aka Festus in WoW

[Rasix]

Did you want this to be a reply to the other thread where Triforcer and other discuss mages?  If so, I can move the post there. 

If not.. umm.. yah.  I've always wanted to play an ice mage.  They were the one class that continually kicked the crap out of my rogue in Hillsbrad/SS pvp. Well, the well played ones at least.  I could never pull off a straight gank on them.  Either ice block or a frost nova + blink would foil my attempts.

Btw, that's a horrible topic title.

[Grind]

Yes please move it, I took to long to reply and ended up making a new thread rather than the reply I wanted.

Cheers,
Grind

[Sogrinaugh]

I would argue that:
In PvE, the most important issue is aggro control... then dps etc.
In PvP, the most important issue is survivability, then ranged dps and strategic options, etc.

I disagree.  In a pickup group, aggro control is pretty important since at least half the time your tank, doesn't.  I can tell you honestly that offensive casters in my guild load themselves down in most every item slot with the maximal +dmg and +% crit they can get thier hands on, and it is still almost impossible to ever pull aggro from the guilds MT (arcane power + PoM + instacast spam might do it, but no one is that much of a dick).  The PvP MS warriors do periodically lose aggro, but this tends to happen when they get stunned, feared, punted, etc.

So in PvE, i would say the primary issue is paying attention (this means not going afk) and maximizing your DPS.  Having said all that, yes ice block makes AoE'ing alot easier when your healer isnt a priest, or when your priest isnt competent.

For pvp i can't say thier is any defining primary issue at all.  I WILL say if anything i place survivability at or near the very bottom of importance.  Thier is no penalty for PvP death in this game, yet thier is great reward for killing, and doing so as quickly as possible.  If survivability were the most important issue thier would be more than ZERO paladins winning Nvidia cards.

In warsong your job is to drop the fucking druid that has your flag.  Frost is near-worthless since most of the top guild teams include a FAP-chugging druid.  You want to crank out damage, and as much of it as possible as quickly as possible because it is the ONLY way to stop that sprinting panther.

I can't speak much for AV as grinding rep isn't something i currently have time for.

Overland "random" pvp:  No single overriding factor.  In a 1v1 conflict, nothing beats AP, particularly when you are loaded down with +%crit and +dmg gear.  The number of opponents you will encounter who cannot withstand your alpha strike are many, and the ones who can generally die quickly thierafter to AE-spam.  Group pvp tends to go to the side with more #'s, though the scales can be tipped the other way if your group is much more skillfull and/or equiped.  Frost would allow you to again snare rogues... who are most likely being hamstrung anyway.  Snaring the other classes mostly doesnt matter.

I would also mention that i once thought as you.  I thought the frost tree was extremely elegant, and being a MtG player i really liked the synergy i saw, how each successive talent point increased the value of all the previous talent points placed within the tree.  But in practice, actual gameplay has shown me that Arc/Frost is MC/Onyxia, Fire is else.

If your experiences differ, by all means take whichever path to victory you find to be most expediant.

[Jobu]

I just rolled an undead mage with some friends to try out the Horde side (getting a bit burnt out on Alliance). So far it's pretty fun. I like being able to kill mob before he can even hit me. 

So I'm thinking of shooting straight down to Improved AE, and kind of poking around in various places until 40 for a real respec. Arcane Concetration and Evocation seem much more helpful than boosting fire and ice damage at such a low level. Is that craziness?

[jpark]

Sogrinaugh - Mostly I could not follow what the hell you said in that post.

[Ironwood]

And I am now disturbed that I not only understood it, but found myself nodding along to it.

I play way too much WoW.


(Got my Shanker last night...)

[Strazos]

I would download it....but Filefont is too fucking slow, and the other site only lets registered users download.