I went to Legoland, or: Why I have no hope for today's youth.

[WayAbvPar]

I am not talking about kids who are laughing and playing (I saw a couple of kids messing around with each other at Costco over the weekend and got a chuckle out of it). I am talking about the kids who SCREAM and cry and carry on for minutes at a time, while their parents do nothing to intervene. Or who run around and repeated knock into other people, or knock shit off the shelves. Or the toddlers who are allowed to wander aimlessly thoughout the store with no supervision.

I am not blaming the kids- they are just being kids and testing their boundaries. I blame the parents who decide that it is too much trouble to deal with it. That fucking pisses me off- it is a disservice to the kids, and a disservice to the rest of us who are being annoyed by it.

[HaemishM]

Anyway, I'm not defending kids acting like demons and parents doing nothing, I feel quite the opposite, you just come off a bit "judgemental old man" on the subject.

I look forward to being "That guy" up on the porch yelling at those damn kids to get off my lawn.

[Polysorbate80]

With kids, it actually starts with teaching them "Yes."  Yes to good behavior.  Doing something good like asking nicely, saying "please" and "thank you", or picking up their toys?  Hugs and support for it.

Step two is ignoring the bad (unless it's dangerous) as much as possible.  Behavior has a purpose; if the behavior doesn't achieve the purpose, it's less likely to be repeated.  If they're screaming to get their way, but the screaming has no apparent effect, they'll get the idea it's not working and try something else--hopefully one of those 'good behavior' things like asking nicely.

"No" is step three.  Some is easy, like "no, hot!"  My daughter understands that touching something hot hurts.  On the other hand, it's been a lot harder to teach her not to bite.  She thinks it's fun and enjoys getting a reaction from other people--and she bites HARD; I've gotten more than one bruise from it and I don't bruise easily.  She's developmentally too young to understand that *other* people have feelings.  Until that happens sometime in the next year or so, I doubt we'll totally get rid of it (but we've been mostly successful.)

Those kids that calm down with a stern word?  That's the result of years of ongoing work, not "Step 1: Discipline, Step 2: ? ? ?, Step 3: happy fun time."   Great when you get there.  Until then, it's a source of constant hair loss.

Regardless, discipline is not about jumping straight into the negative consequences.  And it's *not* something you get to only deal with at home.  It will pop up at the most inappropriate times and places, and unless you can afford 24/7 child care you will be taking your kid into public when they're not up to their best behavior--I guarantee it.

(Discipline for your dog works differently; they're pack animals and respond best to you when you establish yourself as the dominant "leader of the pack.")

Edit: WTF does three question marks produce a frowny face...?

[HaemishM]

Those kids that calm down with a stern word?  That's the result of years of ongoing work, not "Step 1: Discipline, Step 2: ? ? ?, Step 3: happy fun time."   Great when you get there.  Until then, it's a source of constant hair loss.

I'm well aware of this. I think the source of most bad parenting comes from not understanding this concept at all.

[Polysorbate80]

But you don't understand that it's maybe not bad parenting at fault.  No matter how good your parenting,  getting from point "A" to "Z" is a long process through points "B-Y" that will result in irritation and inconvenience for third parties along the way.

Yeah, some of it is just bad parenting.  I've seen my share.  My wife has seen more than her share; I won't repeat tales of her childhood other than to say it wasn't so hot.

But some of it ain't.  So cut those parents some slack if you're in doubt instead of leaping to the 72-point bold red profanity-filled hate.

[Llava]

I can't speak for the others here, but when I'm saying "Get your kid out of there so I don't have to listen to it" I'm not talking about the checkout line, or even the grocery store for the most part.

Movie theater?  Get the kid out of there, I don't care if it's a Rated G movie.  You're the one who took the gamble bringing them in there, you're the one who has to deal with the consequences.  Pretty unfair to ruin the film for the rest of us because you brought your kid.  If the kid is well behaved, great.  No problem.

One thing that's really driving me nuts lately, probably because I just went to Disneyland a couple days ago, is the complete disregard some parents have for other people's personal space.  The kid doesn't get the concept, I know, I get it.  But you do.  Get your kid the hell off of me.  Don't just sit there and talk with your sister-in-law while your children are playing tag around my legs.  This is especially true if you're one of those fuckwads who drags their kid around on a leash- why are you even using that thing if you're not going to keep your kid from standing 1 millimeter behind me in line and bumping into the back of my thigh once every nanosecond?  And if you're not using the leash, pull the kid back a foot or two and say "It's not polite to touch strangers."

As a matter of fact, let's try to teach our kids some games to play when they're in a situation like standing in line that doesn't involve running around.  20 Questions, for example.  Kids don't really get the idea of limited space, they just see everyone else in the line as an obstacle course.  And if they're bored, they're going to want to do something.  But if you see them getting restless like this, suggest that they play something more localized please.  And if they still want to play tag anyways, stop them and tell them it's rude, and that they can play something else that isn't bothering everyone around them or nothing at all.

Most parents know this, but not nearly enough apparently.  This last Saturday at Disneyland, I saw so many kids just going nuts, running around, tripping people up, getting in the way, and all around just making everyone near them uncomfortable while their parents didn't do a damn thing but sit around and talk about the last Oprah.  It's already an overcrowded, uncomfortable place.  Let's try not to make it worse, okay?

(btw, the rebuilt Space Mountain kicks ass)

[WayAbvPar]

 

[CmdrSlack]

Movie theater?  Get the kid out of there, I don't care if it's a Rated G movie.  You're the one who took the gamble bringing them in there, you're the one who has to deal with the consequences.  Pretty unfair to ruin the film for the rest of us because you brought your kid.  If the kid is well behaved, great.  No problem.

There's a reason rated G films are mostly kids movies and whatnot....

[Strazos]

But those same movies can be very entertaining to adults also, for very different reasons.

Also, why ruin the movie for the other kids who are behaving? Saying "it's a G movie, DUH!" is a cop-out.

[AcidCat]

Certainly a movie theater or library is a different thing, these are places where people have a right to a quiet environment to enjoy themselves.

Or who run around and repeated knock into other people, or knock shit off the shelves. Or the toddlers who are allowed to wander aimlessly thoughout the store with no supervision.

That is pretty extreme, honestly I rarely ever see such behavior in stores. But kids in movie theaters that start sounding off are my one pet peeve that I have encountered too many times. During Episode III a kid started wailing and the parent jumped up immediately and left with him - I almost wanted to stand up and applaud her. Too many people have this weird idea about bringing kids to totally inappropriate movies or letting noisy kids get away with it.

Disneyland ... well a young child at Disneyland may as well be mainlining high fructose corn syrup, their excitement is through the roof and even well mannered kids go a little fruity.

[CmdrSlack]

But those same movies can be very entertaining to adults also, for very different reasons.

Also, why ruin the movie for the other kids who are behaving? Saying "it's a G movie, DUH!" is a cop-out.

Out of control and noisy is one thing.  A kid who wants to sing along with a song in the movie is another.

[Llava]

That's cool.  Most people would think that's cute.

I know the kids are Disneyland are excited, and that's allowed.  All I'm asking is that their parents at least take reasonable steps to keep them from plowing into complete strangers every few seconds- at least while those strangers are standing still.  In the crowds, okay, I can deal with kids running around and being in the way.  Everyone's in the way in the crowds.  But when we're in line, I really don't want to spend the next 45 minute with your kid's forehead jammed against my right ass cheek.  If you don't do anything about it, expect that I will.  And if I'm forced to do something to get your kid under control with you standing RIGHT there doing nothing, I'd say you need to examine your parenting.

And hell, I'm an extremely tolerant person.  A couple bumps I can deal with.  No big deal, it's a kid.  But I'm talking repeated, obvious, irritating prodding and pushing from some kid for frequently more than a half hour at a time if I didn't do anything about it.

(I should point out that when I say "Do something" I don't mean smacking the kid or anything like that- I mean telling the kid to back off, or asking the parent to control their child. It would have to be really, really extreme to make me actually physically move the kid away from me, and the kid would basically have to be coming at me with a weapon for me to react with any sort of violence, as should be the case with any decent human being.)

[Sairon]

People who doesn't discipline their children is doing them a huge disservice. I know this kid who have only 1 brother, which is like 20 years older than him. His mother spoiled him, his father spoiled him and his brother spoiled him. Total freedom and had pretty much everything he pointed at. When he came to the age where he had to go to school and be with other kids he really got problems. The other childrens didn't want to play him, he didn't get invited to the other childrens birthday partys etc. He'l probably learn to behave once he figures out why nobody wants to hang out with him, but if he wasn't so spoiled and always got his way he would've been way better off.

[Bunk]

There's one that always bugs me.. If a kid is doing something that directly affects me - physically bumping in to me, touching my possesions, running circles around my legs, whatever - if the parent doesn't intervene, I will. And boy oh boy do most parents get pissed off about that.

A stranger doesn't have the right to discipline someone else's kids, but they do have a right to thier own space. If a child is invading my space, I'm going to say something about it. Note, I said say something, I'm not advocating touching someone else's kids.

If I'm at the movies, and some numbnuts brings a six year old to a 9:00pm showing - that kid sure as hell better not start kicking my seat.

I really wish I had a porch to sit on and yell at kids from.

[Daeven]

How you do it is up to you. All I am asking is that you don't do it in public. Take them outside, or to the car, or into a bathroom, or whathaveyou.

Once again yo uare failing to address the reality of the world. How do I follow this advice while in the grocery check-out aisle? How do I follow this advice if I haven't received my check at Red Robin? I know it's nice to make blanket declarative statements so you can justify your opinions on how horrible it is that those damned parents are inconveniencing you. But that's not how the world works. And I am *NOT* going to lock myself or my generally well-behaved kids in our house because we might somehow inconvenience you.

Again. Wellcome to humanity. Now suck it up and deal with the fact that life is inconvenient..

(And I still say the parent who took her kids to Seven, or a gormet restaruant should be taken out and shot. But that's just me.)

[Daeven]

I can't speak for the others here, but when I'm saying "Get your kid out of there so I don't have to listen to it" I'm not talking about the checkout line, or even the grocery store for the most part.

Movie theater?  Get the kid out of there, I don't care if it's a Rated G movie.  You're the one who took the gamble bringing them in there, you're the one who has to deal with the consequences.  Pretty unfair to ruin the film for the rest of us because you brought your kid.  If the kid is well behaved, great.  No problem.

Well said. I *loathe* parents who let their kids freak out in movies . 'he's just a baby!'

Gah. Die, Motherfucker. Die.

[Strazos]

I really wish I had a porch to sit on and yell at kids from.

"Hey you Damn Kids, Get Off My Lawn!"

But seriously, I cannto stand the kids in my neighborhood now....They're stupid and disruptive. Nothing like what I was like when I was a kid. He just played video games, board games, sports in our closest cul-de-sac, and stuff in the woods. We were no trouble to anyone.

Now, we have kids playing sports in our circle, but they're stupid about it. They hit the tennis balls for baseball in the wrong direction, and don't care if we all have our cars parked there.

And yes, a tennis ball CAN dent a car.

After yelling at them to stop hitting towards my car, I stole their bat when they weren't looking.

[HaemishM]

So you guys obviously have misconceptions about the type of parenting I'm talking about. I'll go into anecdotes.

Worked at B. Dalton's bookstore, where the register was RIGHT BY THE KIDS DEPARTMENT. Ok, no problem, kids are cute. Some of them. Some of them are holy fucking terror shit machines with snot cannons for noses whose parents should be sterilized because they are not responsible enough to masturbate into a petri dish, much less nurture the next generation of douchebags. I expect kids to punch the buttons on the talking books over and over again. It's annoying, but temporary. No, I'm talking about the kids who want a book and will not accept no for an answer. The kind of kid who when told No by his parent, FALLS DIRECTLY ON THE FLOOR AND STARTS FLINGING HIS LIMBS ABOUT LIKE HE WA STRUCK BY A FAITH HEALER. I mean flailing, limbs going every which away, tossing anything in his hands, screeching at the top of his lungs, then getting up and running around to start tossing books off shelves.

Or the cunt whose child pissed directly on the floor. At least she told me about it, then left the store without bothering to apologize or clean it up. That ain't the kid's fault. Either the kid should have had a damn diaper or training pants on, because it was that age, or the parent should have paid enough attention to the kid to know he had to water the fucking lilies. On my store's floor.

I'm talking about the kids who take candy off the shelves and toss it around because their mom won't buy them a candy bar. Or who actually reach out and HIT their parents when the parents tell them no. And I mean they haul off and smack the mom's leg or something.

If you've got a kid acting out like that in public, and there isn't some form of mental retardation or actual physical malady that is causing it, you suck as a parent and I want to have you publicly flogged. It goes beyond just crying in the checkout lane or wailing at a restaurant. I'm talking about the kids who either really DO need ridalin prescribed (and I think that shit is used WAY TOO MUCH), or need a good ass-whooping.

Kids will throw tantrums. Kids will act out and cry. That's what they do, and as a child, they won't even know why sometimes. I accept that, sometimes it's even cute. But those aren't the kids I'm talking about.

[Polysorbate80]

The "peeing on the floor" thing was bad (although kids can untape their own diapers goddamned quick).  And yes, taking a noisy kid to (or keeping one who becomes so in) a restaurant or theatre or some such place where a quiet, relaxed atmosphere is expected is definitely being a jackass.  However, the grocery store (or any non-highbrow store for that matter) or Chuck E. Cheese or Disneyland is a whole 'nuther ball of wax.

The tantruming?  Lemme try to do this simple:

Children have tantrums (bad)

Parents get kids to not have tantrums (good)

Agreed so far, are we?

Now, you're leaping to the conclusion that because a tantrum occured, the parenting is lacking. 

The problem with that:  instilling discipline in children is a drawn-out process.  During that process, tantrums will continue to occur, for whatever the fuck reason(s) the kid is doing it.  Good parenting will reduce and eventually eliminate those tantrums, but it might not do a whole hell of a lot for the one incident that's annoying YOU right now.

Eventually little Billy or Susie will be one of those kids that behave like y'all want,  but they (and their parents) go through a whole crapload of trial and error, learning curve, relapses, developmental changes, etc. to get there.

A child acting out is not bad parenting.  A child with a history of acting out (and no improvement), THAT'S bad parenting. 

[HaemishM]

If the tantruming involves tossing real shit about that is not the child's shit (such as candy bars, books, whatever) and the tantrum isn't immediately dealt with, THAT is the parent's fault. I had many tantrums as a kid; shit, I was known for having temper tantrums.

Had I ever went so far as to start tossing shit around like I've seen kids do, I wouldn't have seen light for a week, other than the red glow of pain radiating from my spanked-red ass.

[Polysorbate80]

If they're at risk of destroying something that doesn't belong to them, it's time to remove them; I'll go as far as agreeing on that.  Otherwise, I think we're just going to have to disagree--I'm off to get my stitches removed, and I'm pretty certain I won't be up to acting civilized myself for a while