Barrier to Entry On Old Servers?

[stray]

Just a subject I thought deserved it's own thread (though it very well could have been placed in the Farming, Raiding, or the Emerald Dream threads).

I don't think I've ever seen a game before WoW that had such a large barrier to entry on it's older servers. DAOC, EQ, even Shadowbane weren't so overwhelming to newbs who'd log in 6 months, a year, or years after launch. What server you chose to play on was mostly inconsequential.

With WoW though, I'm noticing the complete opposite. You have to think long and hard about where you want to play, else you're fucked. There's a severe uphill battle in store for anyone who didn't play when a given server goes live. Raid progress, BoE/P items, inflated and twinked out economies, catassed PvP ladders, extreme lack of demand for (the more fun) dps classes, lack of demand for crafting trades -- If you don't hop on board within a month or two, these things will most likely leave you in your tracks.

I'm not bringing this up because of any particular experience I've had (I don't have the goals to really give a shit atm), but I'm wondering what could be done about it. Does Blizzard keep on doing what they're doing -- Releasing more servers so certain disenfranchised players can have a fresh start? Or is there a way to fix things within the game itself?

[Righ]

What could Blizzard do, or what could we do in a pipe dream development model? Because Blizzard can't really do much more than creating new servers in the short term. The game has a lot of mudflation stuff happening. I haven't checked ED, but over on Bloodhoof a lowbie blue (15-30) runs in the tens of gold on average (typically 20-50), with the 'desirable' ones hitting over 200 gold. I'm not kidding. Higher level stuff and epics are not as inflated, presumably because the market is being driven by people twinking lowbies for instanced PvP.

[Velorath]

I'm kinda curious to see how the expansion will affect all this.  Once max level goes up to 70, will there still be a point to going through the current raid zones?  Will solo content for lv. 60-70 be balanced for characters overloaded with epics, and will players be effective in groups with just greens and blues?  I can see the expansion going two ways.  Either it allows the casual players to level past all the MC, BWL, etc... shit and end up back on a somewhat level playing field with the catasses for at least a short time, or the content will mostly end up being balanced for the purpled-out hardcore raiders.

If the gear the raiders have worked all this time in the endgame for becomes worthless by the time they hit level 65 or something, I can see a lot of bitching from the catasses.  If the new levels and content end up being cockblocks only passable by the catasses than the casual players will have Trials of Atlantis-level disgust with the game.  I'll be keeping a close eye on how Blizzard designs the new content for a game with such a big disparity at max level right now between the haves and the have-nots.

[Fabricated]

I have a feeling that the new content will be doable in greens and 5-man instance blues pretty easily. There's a new high-level raid available at like 62-63ish I think so the catassers have their new place to get their purples/oranges and be better than those lowly pleebs without lots of free time.

[AcidCat]

Which is of course why new server openings are so popular. I can't imagine making a character on my original server, Deathwing, now.

[Tale]

With WoW though, I'm noticing the complete opposite. You have to think long and hard about where you want to play, else you're fucked. There's a severe uphill battle in store for anyone who didn't play when a given server goes live. Raid progress, BoE/P items, inflated and twinked out economies, catassed PvP ladders, extreme lack of demand for (the more fun) dps classes, lack of demand for crafting trades -- If you don't hop on board within a month or two, these things will most likely leave you in your tracks.

I don't see that. It's easy to get to 60, so that's covered. The rest is a matter of guild choice: you need to join a guild that is learning MC, not a guild that is doing AQ40. I don't play battlefields so the PvP ladders seem irrelevant to me, but that has never been as viable a route to epic gear as raiding. I got started on Proudmoore (one of the original servers) in June last year, played fairly casually since getting to 60, and now my character is fully tier 1 geared.

One thing with a higher barrier now though is Onyxia. I can't see a noob raiding guild having a chance at her now, as the bar was raised and the fight got harder. Still easy for power guilds, but far more challenging for a semi-casual MC guild than it used to be. This is appropriate given the tier 2 headgear on offer, but I've never thought that should have been on her: it should have been the tier 1 headgear because at launch, Onyxia was talked up as the first big raiding challenge for guilds.

[Rasix]

words

I mostly disagree with what you've said.  The current barrier to entry really isn't that bad based on personal experience and observations in game.  There are certain goals in the game that are basically unreachable for some due to time restrictions, but they would always be out of reach for that person even if they'd been playing on that server from minute 1.

Now, the expansion could take the game in a bad place like expansions for EQ did and DAOC with TOA did.  That remains to be seen. Hell, it could end up making a great deal of the game a hell of a lot more accessable for many.

Addendum: Naxx could end up fucking up the barrier for entry into raid guilds for a while. 

[Threash]

Newbies don't need all those expensive blue or even green items, you can easily get to 60 with whatever drops and quest rewards you yourself get.  The items are expensive because they are for twinks who want to either level fast or pvp with them.  I don't see a problem with trade skills either, you are not going to get rich from them but you can still make items for yourself which is the main reason most people do it in the first place.  The only real problem i see with new players joining a established server is that there might be some difficulty in getting real groups for the lower level instances.  As far as classes go it seems my server at least is much more balanced than it was at the beggining, in fact i would be willing to bet a new server has a lot more problems with having lots of the fast leveling fun dps classes rather than support as people race to the high levels with the easier to solo classes like rogues hunters or warlocks.

[stray]

because they are for twinks

Yes, of course they are.

If anything was meant for twinks, then why did Blizzard go out of their way to code in BoE/BoP in the first place?

[SurfD]

because they are for twinks

Yes, of course they are.

If anything was meant for twinks, then why did Blizzard go out of their way to code in BoE/BoP in the first place?

Because there is different levels of Twinkishness.

There is the Powergamer Twink Alt (or main) who has loads of cash to spend, and wants to hit 60 ASAP.  So he pays premium cash for top of the line items all the time in the quest for that few extra stats, or boost in DPS to help him hit 60 faster.

Then there is the "Never Going Above X Level Battleground Alt Twink"  These are the ones that tend to MASSIVELY inflate the prices on level 15-29 blue BoE Gear. These are alts of people already at 60 who want a twinked to the max low level alt character specificly for Instanced battlegrounds.  They NEVER go anywhere else once they hit 19, or 29, and 95% of their gear is the best Blue money can buy.

I agree with Threash though, the vast majority of people should NEVER need to buy overpriced blues just to get to 60.  The random stuff you win in instances, get from quests or simply pick up off that elf you just mash is usually quite good enough.  It has always been my philosophy that there really isnt any point in spending your hard earned cash (usually a small enough amount as it is at the low levels) on gear, which you are just going to replace in 3-6 levels anyhow (and sell at a fraction of the price you payed for it) when you could be saving that cash for stuff you will use damn near forever, like 14 or 16 slot bags, and level 40 / 60 mounts.

As to breaking into a new server's trade system? Simple answer.  Gathring professions till 60 (Herbalism / Mining / Skinning / Enchanting (disenchant)) And then once you hit 60, figure out what (if any) of the Crafting trades will make you money and go with it (Getting a Guild could factor in here also, if your guild needs an alchemist, or a tailor, you could fill that role)

[Morfiend]

There's a severe uphill battle in store for anyone who didn't play when a given server goes live. Raid progress, BoE/P items, inflated and twinked out economies, catassed PvP ladders, extreme lack of demand for (the more fun) dps classes, lack of demand for crafting trades --

I honestly think the only real barrier to entry is getting in a decent guild as the class you want. If raiding is your thing. The pvp ladder is set in such a way that it doesnt matter when you start. Yes, if you really power to 60 on a new server, and are one of the top guys right away, it will be easy to get a jump on the competition. Other than that, if you get in a decent guild, they will gear you up faster that you would have got on a new server. The main problem being all the raiding guilds being full on your certen class.

Also, about the expansion. I believe that if you are fully decked out in Naxxramas items, you will probably be decently geared till level 70, and you cant start on the new end game instances. But I defenetly think there will be a slew of new blue items that at level 70 will be better than a level 60 purple item.

[stray]

I agree with Threash though, the vast majority of people should NEVER need to buy overpriced blues just to get to 60.

I'm merely saying that blues should be within their reach. Even if slightly. Not that "the vast majority should have blues". And pricing weapons within that level at 100 to 300 gold is far, far, far out of their reach. It's completely impossible for a new, solo player to make that even with the most dilligent sort of catassing. It's hard enough to make 5, 10, or 15 gold in the early levels --- Let alone 100's of gold. By the time they did make that much cash on their own, they would probably be twenty levels above the weapon range anyways and in a brave new world of advanced cockblocking.

Hell, we don't even need to talk about blues. Even greens can be expensive. Just the other day, I noticed level 9-ish daggers and swords priced for a gold a piece on the AH. A whole page of them. That kind of stuff will sell for 20 silver at the most on a new server, or would have sold for that a year ago when this was less of a problem.

Weapons within a certain level range must reflect the potential economy and income of the players in that level range. NOT the economy of level 60 players making alts and twinks in that level range. If it gets to that point, then this is what I mean by "barrier to entry". Totally unnecessary, extra baggaged, established server bullshit that a new player would be better off not dealing with.


Anyways.....It seems that the only thing you guys can respond with is to act like twinks were part of the game design all along (that's what it sounds like at least). But like I said, if twinks were part of the design all along, then there never would have been features such as BoP/BoE, or mechanisms which help prevent easy power leveling. If this is was supposed to be a twink friendly game, it'd resemble DAoC.

[Phred]

Actually, my experience is that it's way easier to make money on an old server than on a new one. Copper bars, for one, can sell for 1 gold a stack on a mature server. Considering how many of these you can gather up as a lowbie, it's pretty easy to make money.

I also disagree with you on trades. I recently reorganized my trade skills on a few alts and leveled up blacksmithing on one of my alts. I was actually quite amazed how well some items sold for and how quickly they sold. I tossed a bunch of pieces I made skilling up on the ah before just disenchanting them all which was my first inclination and almost everything I put up sold out overnight. This is on a release server.

Bags are another item that sells well on old servers as new ones. I started a character on Alleria to chat with some old eq guildmates and just about fell over when I saw the going rate on 6 slot bags. People were selling them for more than you can buy them from from NPC bag vendors. A few in the ah would be an aberition but this ah had 3 pages of 6 slot bags all priced at 10 silver so someone must be paying it.

As to the end game; guilds are constantly recruiting in this game, as people burn out. Afterlife is currently looking for rogues and hunters so the "fun" dps classes are still in demand even by established guilds on established servers.

[Zetor]

Yeah, but you aren't getting in Afterlife as a random rogue in shadowcraft. Typical uberguilds on my server require at least MC-level gear to join (BWL-level / rank 13+ gear if it's a popular dps class). There is exactly one exception, and that's warlocks... there aren't many alliance warlocks on pvp servers for some reason.

You CAN join the smaller raiding guilds (the sort that are still wiping on domo) though, but then you run the risk of them imploding after a month and the better-geared members jumping ship in order to join random_aq_uberguild_01 to replace someone who quit the game and ebayed their char.

That's pretty much the state of raiding on Crushridge at the moment. Thankfully I don't raid. :p

About the low level twinking issue, it goes both ways. If you take two gathering skills and farm stuff like elemental fire, popular herbs (goldthorn, sungrass, dreamfoil, icecap, etc) and ores while levelling up, you can sell them for a lot. On a pvp server there'll always be a random level 60 respeccing for engineering and buying all the metals / gems for it on the AH. There's a lot of stuff farmable by lowbies that sell for a lot due to them being used in greater fire protection potions, etcetera. A lot of 60s are just plain lazy and buy all materials instead of harvesting them (on my server the demand is vastly greater than the supply, YMMV).
The same goes for the occasional BOE green/blue/purple you may find. If you don't want to be a pvp twink, you can level to 60 by just using quest rewards and the occasional drop, so you can sell everything else for a hefty profit. (I know a newbie on my server who had 90 gold by level 30, along with five 14-slot bags, just by careful use of the AH)


-- Z.

[WindupAtheist]

A powerful level 19 item goes for a fucking shitload more than an equal or slightly better level 21 item, based on how the battlegrounds work.  And I tell you, god bless those twinks.  Because you never know when that level 19 item will drop to make you filthy rich beyond the dreams of newbie avarice.

[Threash]

I agree with Threash though, the vast majority of people should NEVER need to buy overpriced blues just to get to 60.

I'm merely saying that blues should be within their reach. Even if slightly. Not that "the vast majority should have blues". And pricing weapons within that level at 100 to 300 gold is far, far, far out of their reach. It's completely impossible for a new, solo player to make that even with the most dilligent sort of catassing. It's hard enough to make 5, 10, or 15 gold in the early levels --- Let alone 100's of gold. By the time they did make that much cash on their own, they would probably be twenty levels above the weapon range anyways and in a brave new world of advanced cockblocking.

You are right, they should be affordable for the levels they where intended for.  What i disagree with is that this is anything other than a minor issue for the lowbies actually trying to level up.  If you can't afford to buy a single item from lvl 1 to 59 you are not going to have any problems whatsoever playing, you won't have a shiny uber weapon for a few levels but it sure as hell isnt any kind of barrier of entry or cockblock.

Next patch they are making it so you actually gain exp inside the BGs so pvp twinks should eventually die off, personally i would have made high level enchants have a minimum level for the items they can be put on also. 

[Xanthippe]

Actually, my experience is that it's way easier to make money on an old server than on a new one.

Absolutely.  It's a lot tougher to make money on a new server than an old one, because everyone's a lowbie.  There are no 60s to sell copper to, no 60s outfitting alts, and so on.

[Phred]

Next patch they are making it so you actually gain exp inside the BGs so pvp twinks should eventually die off, personally i would have made high level enchants have a minimum level for the items they can be put on also. 

I've heard this discounted as a rumor. Have you any actual proof of this?

And big Fuck YA! to the enchant issue. Why the fuck can I put a L300 enchant on L1 grey gear. No other profession is that wide open to abuse. And if you've ever tried to apply an armor kit to a low level item, the "spell" casts but won't complete, complaining the item level is too low, so they obviously have code that can test that when the enchantment "spell"  is cast. Personally I have no idea why enchantmenting didn't allow you to enchant a rune that could be traded to people. Not only would it have fit with other professions better but it would have cut the iF/Org spam down considerably. They already have one rune that works that way for a useless fiery enchant that they give out as an alliance quest reward ( and man it was  fun selling that as a do it yourself fiery enchant kit before they made it bop) When I leveled up my rogue I actually had to pay to get an enchant to get that off my weapon. For those that don't know it, it's like a 10 dmg fire proc, but AE. And a wide ae too. I had it break so many saps before I said fuck it and got it off my weapon...

[Ironwood]

Grouping.