Narnia: Voyage of the Dawn Treader

[shiznitz]

This moves needs to be renamed: Voyage of the Brand Shredder.

There won't be another Narnia movie for a long while.

[Slyfeind]

I think you're right, and that makes me sad. I was looking forward to Horse and his Boy, if only to see the Pevensie kids all growed up and noble and whatnot.

[Ratman_tf]

This moves needs to be renamed: Voyage of the Brand Shredder.

There won't be another Narnia movie for a long while.

Yep. I had that feeling from Prince Caspian where they gutted all the charm of the original material and replaced it with Generic Action Sequences.

I recentley rewatched the animated Narnia movie from 1979, which is the first Narnia thing I saw, and later got into the books and BBC live series.
It's got it's issues, the screaming queen, the cartoony aspects, setting it in America  , but it also wasn't wound up about making a ripoff of LOTR, and the music was really great.

[Sir T]

The BBC live series was actually very good. I liked the way they did Dawn Treader especially, but it has to be said the episodic format suited the book very well.

[Ratman_tf]

The BBC live series was actually very good. I liked the way they did Dawn Treader especially, but it has to be said the episodic format suited the book very well.

I've seen bits and pieces of the BBC Narnia series. Mostly I remember The Silver Chair. (Yes, I know Tom Baker played Puddleglum.  )  I need to get them on DVD.

[Khaldun]

It's ok. There's some miscasting here and there and of course the effects are sub-old-Dr. Who in quality. I think The Silver Chair was their best, which is good since it's likely to be the only version of it.

[Sir T]

Yeah, The silver chair was good. I guess I was hampered as i had to try and listen to it through a croud of screaming kids at the time and constant distractions, so Its not stuck in my mind.

[Kitsune]

Look, clearly Susan was an imbecile who deserved to burn in the lake of fire.  She got teleported to a magical world, grew to adulthood in it, became a queen, fought some wars, and generally spent more time there (or a roughly equal amount) than she had in the real world.  Then, upon going back into the real world, she decided it was all make-believe.

Wat.

She'd already grown to adulthood once, in Narnia.  Nobody called her on putting on makeup and not having to stuff her bra any more, or on hooking up with guys.  So why would they do so when she grew up for the second time?  Because the second time she grew up retarded, that's why.

[Reg]

Retarded and EEEVUL!!!11!

[Khaldun]

Look, clearly Susan was an imbecile who deserved to burn in the lake of fire.  She got teleported to a magical world, grew to adulthood in it, became a queen, fought some wars, and generally spent more time there (or a roughly equal amount) than she had in the real world.  Then, upon going back into the real world, she decided it was all make-believe.

Wat.

She'd already grown to adulthood once, in Narnia.  Nobody called her on putting on makeup and not having to stuff her bra any more, or on hooking up with guys.  So why would they do so when she grew up for the second time?  Because the second time she grew up retarded, that's why.

It's a problem with Lewis' entire theology. He thought that God's existence was roughly as obvious in our world as Aslan's existence was in Narnia. You have to be a screaming idiot in Narnia or maybe be unlucky enough to live in one of the few thousand-year periods where Aslan is busy creating Mini-Golf-Is-Awesome-World to even remotely doubt his existence. So who does? Idiots and completely fucking crazy evil assholes like Shift and dirty brown people who are born as Mooslims and don't have the moral courage to become Aslanites. So same goes for our world: you're utterly stupid or completely evil or a dirty brown person if you're not a Christian. Serious secular doubt for Lewis is always evidence that you're either Shift or Trumpkin: a fiend or a dumbass. He has hope if you're the latter: all it takes is Lewis or someone like him to show you up.

[Ratman_tf]

It's a problem with Lewis' entire theology. He thought that God's existence was roughly as obvious in our world as Aslan's existence was in Narnia. You have to be a screaming idiot in Narnia or maybe be unlucky enough to live in one of the few thousand-year periods where Aslan is busy creating Mini-Golf-Is-Awesome-World to even remotely doubt his existence. So who does? Idiots and completely fucking crazy evil assholes like Shift and dirty brown people who are born as Mooslims and don't have the moral courage to become Aslanites. So same goes for our world: you're utterly stupid or completely evil or a dirty brown person if you're not a Christian. Serious secular doubt for Lewis is always evidence that you're either Shift or Trumpkin: a fiend or a dumbass. He has hope if you're the latter: all it takes is Lewis or someone like him to show you up.

And that's closer to the root of the argument than saying something dumb like "Lewis was a misogynist because he said Susan was a slut who went to hell for wearing lipstick!"

[Ironwood]

I don't see those arguments as mutually exclusive.

[Khaldun]

I think it's perfectly plausible to see some underlying misogyny in the phrasing of Lewis' characterization of Susan in The Last Battle. Most of the Inklings had that weird old-don girls-are-icky thing going on in some measure, and Lewis more than most. Whatever his sex life really was, I think it's fair to guess that he had some hang-ups about doing the deed and about people, particularly women, who had a healthy grown-up interest in doing the deed. But in the same measure, there's a lot of clear textual evidence that he was not intending to say, "Susan shows that sluts go to hell, so don't be a slut, my dear young readers", that his conscious intention was to suggest that Susan's real problem was a lack of faith in imagination and stories, and thus, by proxy, in God and redemption.

[Slyfeind]

Whatever his sex life really was, I think it's fair to guess that he had some hang-ups about doing the deed and about people, particularly women, who had a healthy grown-up interest in doing the deed.

He was a virgin until about 60, when he married a hot young fan of his. That hot young fan died a few years later of cancer. LOL! :(

Movie about him is actually pretty decent. Kind of a chick flick, except for old dudes.

[DraconianOne]

He was a virgin until about 60, when he married a hot young fan of his. That hot young fan died a few years later of cancer. LOL! :(

Movie about him is actually pretty decent. Kind of a chick flick, except for old dudes.

I was going to say that there was a bit of a dispute between his two biographers about whether he and Janie Moore, the older women he spent 30 years in a relationship with before he met Gresham, were actually lovers.  And he was with her before he converted back to Christianity.  As it's 20+ years since I read AN Wilson's biography of Lewis, I thought I'd just check my facts.  Turns out there's no longer a dispute. From wikipedia:

Later Sayer changed his mind. In the introduction to the 1997 edition of his biography of Lewis he wrote:

   

I have had to alter my opinion of Lewis's relationship with Mrs. Moore. In chapter eight of this book I wrote that I was uncertain about whether they were lovers. Now after conversations with Mrs. Moore's daughter, Maureen, and a consideration of the way in which their bedrooms were arranged at The Kilns, I am quite certain that they were.

So, no. He probably wasn't a virgin and Gresham wasn't his first relationship. He didn't marry Moore because she was seperated from her husband but never got divorced so they cohabited until her death.

[Khaldun]

There's still a few Lewis fans who say it was ambiguous, but yes, there's at least some pretty good reason to think he had a long term sexual relationship with a woman whose basic affect, according to most of Lewis' friends, was "stepmotherly". Makes you think about the White and Emerald Witches and their respective histories with Edmund and Prince Rilian in a different light, perhaps.

[Sir T]

There's no real doubt that the relationship with Prince Rillian and the Green Witch would have been sexual. Edmund and the White Witch would be more of allegory of drug addiction and the power the dealer has over you.

[Merusk]

I can't remember the Green witch at all. Hrm.. later books, I guess, since I only read those once or twice.   The White Witch I wholly believed was drugs even when younger.  Being from the states I thought Turkish Delight was some sort of exotic adult-only food like that mysterious 'magic brownies' everyone got in such a fluff over.

[Ironwood]

And yet, didn't the Green Witch turn into a snake ?

[Sir T]

She turned into the Green Serpent that had killed Rillian's mother at the end, once her enchantment spell was broken, yeah. I'm sure you will make lots of hay about that in the quest for "IT MUST BE ALL ABOUT SEX REALLY!!"  

Of course the enhancement spell was broken by putting out the fire that she was burning the spices she was using to befuddle their minds. So you could argue there was a lot f anti-drug stuff in there as well.

[Ironwood]

You're right.  The snake's never been a metaphor for male sexuality in any text, right back to before the Bible.

 

[Sir T]

Well if you want to duel symbolism

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Rod_of_asclepius.png

The rod of Asclepius. A symbol of medicine and healing.

Which does tie into the bible.

Then the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. And the people came to Moses and said, "We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD and against you. Pray to the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us." So Moses prayed for the people. And the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent and set it on a pole, and everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live." Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[Slyfeind]

I was going to say that there was a bit of a dispute between his two biographers about whether he and Janie Moore, the older women he spent 30 years in a relationship with before he met Gresham, were actually lovers.  And he was with her before he converted back to Christianity.  As it's 20+ years since I read AN Wilson's biography of Lewis, I thought I'd just check my facts.  Turns out there's no longer a dispute. From wikipedia:
    

I have had to alter my opinion of Lewis's relationship with Mrs. Moore. In chapter eight of this book I wrote that I was uncertain about whether they were lovers. Now after conversations with Mrs. Moore's daughter, Maureen, and a consideration of the way in which their bedrooms were arranged at The Kilns, I am quite certain that they were.

Yeah but that was one guy changing his mind about Lewis later in life, based on something someone else said, also later in life. Realistically they were two healthy sexual creatures living close together, so it'd be insane to think they didn't do it. But then again, humans don't always behave "realistically".  

Come to think of it, I'll bet Edmund and the White Witch did it too. It'd be much easier for her to keep him seduced if she popped his man-cherry.

[Sand]

Come to think of it, I'll bet Edmund and the White Witch did it too. It'd be much easier for her to keep him seduced if she popped his man-cherry.

Oh Im sure the intertubes are crawling with fanfiction of just such an occurrence.

Yep found some!

"Turkish Delight is for little boys," the Witch purred. "Wouldn't you rather have...a man's reward?"

Edmund's heart beat faster as the Witch unfastened her robe and let it fall to the snow. Stretching, she lay full length. Her body shone, pale and bright. Winter's kiss left no trace upon her.

Edmund's blood burned. He knelt behind the Witch, now very aware of the pressing heat at his groin, dimly understanding that pleasures beyond his dreams could be his for the taking.

[Sir T]

You just wrote that, didn't you. 

[Ratman_tf]

Race to the bottom! 

[shiznitz]

Now if there was a Black Bitch in these books, we would have the makings of an interesting XXX serial.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I put on my robe and wizard hat.

[ghost]

Good god this was a tedious piece of shit.