Rogues are sooper dooper oober!

[Signe]

Finding this on the official forums, I have to wonder if this sort of thing should be able to happen at all.

The hunter's 'flare' ability doesn't work... if it had, I don't think he would  have been able to get that far.  Rogues can also stealth during combat and that causes all targetting on them to drop.   It should also be noted that if a rogue dual wields maces, and they are fast enough, he can pretty much keep things stunned until they expire.  (not 100%, but it's way better than it should be, I think)

[Threash]

Finding this on the official forums, I have to wonder if this sort of thing should be able to happen at all.

The hunter's 'flare' ability doesn't work... if it had, I don't think he would  have been able to get that far.  Rogues can also stealth during combat and that causes all targetting on them to drop.   It should also be noted that if a rogue dual wields maces, and they are fast enough, he can pretty much keep things stunned until they expire.  (not 100%, but it's way better than it should be, I think)

I don't see why it shouldn't be able to happen, sneaking into an enemy city and killing off key NPCs sounds like a pretty nice goal for any rogue.  Flare does work, rogues can only stealth in the middle of combat once every 5 minutes and need a reagent to do it requiring constant trips back to a city not to mention it fails ALOT.  You don't need to use maces to stun lock people, mace specialisation does give 6% chance of a 3 sec stun per hit though but thats not anywhere near reliable enough to keep someone perma stunned.  Say no to nerfs!

[Zetleft]

Yeah flare works just fine to unstealth rogues and hunters mark makes it impossible for a rogue to stealth as seen during that last part of the clip.  Hunters track hidden hasn't worked ever and that does need to be fixed but that wouldn't have saved those bankers anyway.  No nerfs needed here.

[Signe]

Flare has never worked for Righ once... I wonder if he's broken, or if it just doesn't work properly on Earthen Ring.  

Who asked for a nerf?  I just questioned whether this should have happened the way it did not realising that the video must have been editted.  It seemed that rogue was stealthing an awful lot during combat which is why I questioned it.  My main is a rogue, though none of my characters are very high level... I don't mind things being tilted in my favour.  Not one bit.  They do seem rather uber to me, however... which is why I chose to play one... and probably why you guys play one, too.

[stray]

You can't chain stun. There's a time gap there after 3 times or something.

[Threash]

You can't chain stun. There's a time gap there after 3 times or something.

You can chain stun if you use different stuns, but it really doesn't work for that long and it will simply be a button mashing race to get the stuns of before the other person can react so its not all that reliable either.

[Signe]

There was a thread on the main boards about  it but I can't find it now.  For the most part, those boards barely work for me.  Either I completely misunderstood the whole dual mace thing, or some people were just being windy.  If the PvP in this game mattered I'd probably be a bit more concerned, but as it stands now... why nerf?  Who cares?

[Sable Blaze]

As a dual wield warrior, I've never found maces particularly effective in stunning (they tend to have higher dps', which is nice...). I've used them off and on now for 49 levels. I've seen a handful of 2-3 second stuns. Be still my heart! I don't choose maces for stuns. I choose them for availability, i.e. they come along when I need a new weapon.

Many have a perception of the rogue being similar to CoH scrappers. They have enormous damage output and adequate defense. Adequate enough to make them soloing machines. That's the perception and there is some truth to it. In instances, though, they're no tank. PvP I couldn't care less about.

As we all know, however, perception is the reality. Expect a LOT more whining about it, and--if true to MMRPG form--eventual "balancing."

[Signe]

I think the post I was referring to about dual maces was deleted because it basically explained how to chain stun using them.  I wonder now if there was some sort of exploit involved.  I wouldn't be surprised.  Anyway, it seems nearly everything I wrote here is bollocks.  Replying to this this thread will associate you with my gurly bollocks.  No one wants that.

[BlackSky]

haha! I am now asociated with bollocks!

But, on to the chain stunning . . .

I (having a lvl 35 rouge) have yet to chain stun or see any chain stunning taking place. You can stealth, cheap shot, wait for it to wear off, vanish, and CS again, but thats as close as I can see to "chain" stunning.

And as far as the 6% chance to stun with mace spec, that's per hit, it's not cumulative.

[Righ]

Flare does work

Flare never works, and it never has. I've tested with lowbie volunteers, shadowmaw panthers, kurzen commandos and more. I've tested after patches, but there sees to be no reason to have this skill, and certainly no reason to put it on a button bar. Oddly enough, detect hidden is "working as intended". What this does is increases the 10 yard innate detect range that hunters have. Makes it about 12 yards. So that is worthless too.

The orc 25% stun resist doesn't appear to work either. Rogues may not be too uber (I can kill a lot of them) but they are more uber than advertised due to half the counters against them being fucked.

[Signe]

After seeing this:

a Spider Silk Belt. Made with Tailoring. It has a low armor value (obviously) +6 Spirit and when Used immediately breaks ANY roots and makes the wearer immune to them for 3 seconds. No cool down, may be used over and over. Insta cast.

on a board that must not be named, I am beginning to wonder if those people who claim to be able to chain stun with remarkable and continued success, have some sort of stupid item that enables it.

[MrHat]

haha! I am now asociated with bollocks!

But, on to the chain stunning . . .

I (having a lvl 35 rouge) have yet to chain stun or see any chain stunning taking place. You can stealth, cheap shot, wait for it to wear off, vanish, and CS again, but thats as close as I can see to "chain" stunning.

And as far as the 6% chance to stun with mace spec, that's per hit, it's not cumulative.

Actually, the chain stun involves opening w/ CS (2combo points, 3 if you have initiative), following w/ a Sinister Strike (now you're at 4 combos) followed w/ a Kidney Shot (5s stun w/ 4 combo points), you've now had them stunned for up to 7s, you can then follow w/ gouge (4s sleep) or blind (10s confuse) or just kill them.

It's called lockdown, and if it's never happened to you, you usually don't know how to react.

However, I'm finding I'd rather kill something fast that's already damaged then try and draw out a fight by locking someone down.

[Threash]

Once again, it IS possible to stun lock someone for some annoying ammount of time like 14-15 seconds, but it requires you to not miss a single thing in a chain of attacks and the person to not have a free action potion or any ability to break stuns.  It does NOT however require maces in any way, no rogue ability requires maces to use.  I think the chain would go something like this:

Cheap shot (4 seconds, 3 combo points 75% of the time), sinister strike (1 cp), gouge (5.5 sec mez with talents, 1 cp), 5 combot point kidney shot (6second stun at high levels), blind (up to 10second confusion), vanish to get back in stealth and repeat everything again.  With preparation you could even do it a third time.  Of course you can easily break the chain by missing even one of those attacks and you are doing no damage to the target most of the time.

[naum]

Both Detect Hidden and Flare are useless abilities in my XP. Neither are worth the training cost. Didn't know that Detect Hidden is "working as intended"… …that's a joke, silly me, I expected it to work like Track Humanoids, Track Beasts, Track Elementals, Track Demons, etc.…

[Signe]

If someone has a free action pot or something,  then sure, it's game over for the chain but what are the chances?  Rogues take down elite mobs with MrHat's series.  Other players are easier to take down because they don't have double your hps.  I might have to fiddle with stuff some more, but so far, rogues still seem sooper oober to me.   Some of them must know something I haven't sorted out yet because they seem to be able to this more successfully than credit is being given here.  Maybe it's an item or something, I don't know.

Although I did mention maces, and they do increase a rogues chances, that wasn't really my point, Threash... you are not SirFurrying me, are you?

[Threash]

Hmm no i don't think im doing that, whatever that is... doesn't sound like fun though.  Yes rogues are pretty nice, im loving mine so far.  The point i was trying to make was that keeping someone chain stunned means you are doing basically no damage to them since rogue damage comes mostly from their special moves which you are using on stuns instead of finishing moves.

[MrHat]

Rogues take down elite mobs with MrHat's series.

Actually, I've been successful in elite hunting (casters mostly) because of crazy DoT's (Deadly Poison, Rupture, Garrote) and interrupts.

Elites just have too many damn hp.  Don't even try taking out an elite melee mob if you're not 8+ levels above it.

[Threash]

Rogues take down elite mobs with MrHat's series.

Actually, I've been successful in elite hunting (casters mostly) because of crazy DoT's (Deadly Poison, Rupture, Garrote) and interrupts.

Elites just have too many damn hp.  Don't even try taking out an elite melee mob if you're not 8+ levels above it.

Hmm not really, i've been fighting equal level elite mobs for most of the time on my rogue.  At level 29 i was able to solo the viscous fallout (30 elite) in gnomeragan for a toxic revenger and i farmed doan in SM since level 39 or so (i think he is 42).  From what i've seen of most classes, not just rogues, you should be able to solo regular mobs 5 or so levels above you and at least equal level elites.  At least until your 40s, im 51 now and i haven't found any equal level elites to try my luck with lately.

[SurfD]

From what i've seen of most classes, not just rogues, you should be able to solo regular mobs 5 or so levels above you and at least equal level elites.

Emphasis mine, but this is simply not possible with a Mage.

An equal level elite will usually serve me my head in short order, simply because I burn my entire mana bar to do about 3/4 of its hitpoints before it has me fleeing for my life (I suppose it MIGHT be possible to solo one if I could single one out and kite it as a pure ice build, but even then it would be trickey and likely require Mana potions).  

And it is almost equally impossible for me to take down a +5 level mob (once again, unless you go pure ice spec), because keeping it off me without being so is almost impossible, and at +5, it is almost guaranteed to resist at least 1 out of every 3 spells i toss at it, if not 1 out of 2.

[Righ]

I can handle equal level elites by switching off between self and pet. However, if it has a big heal like the treants in Ferelas, I can't pull it off. Having feign death makes it safe enough to try out mobs. There is also no way I'd go after a +5 mob. +2 is tough but possible. Beyond that my pet misses too often to maintain agro, and it becomes a dangerous kiting exercise.

[Threash]

Ok, i might have exagerated a bit.  Its possible to solo certain equal level elites for certain classes and certain mobs that are 5 levels higher than you at certain levels.

[Merusk]

Both Detect Hidden and Flare are useless abilities in my XP. Neither are worth the training cost. Didn't know that Detect Hidden is "working as intended"… …that's a joke, silly me, I expected it to work like Track Humanoids, Track Beasts, Track Elementals, Track Demons, etc.…

It worked like that in beta, I understand, and it made rogues worthless in pvp.  A single hunter in a group meant no rogues would ever get near.

As for flare.. it works fine for me in PvE.  I can get satyrs, panthers, humans, anything to show up without a problem.  NOW, what it doesn't do is  force them 'visible.'  They go into that quasi-visible state with the accompanying 'wooom' sound of stealth so that I can target them. A hunter's mark later and they're swiss cheese.  

It might be that I'm using detect hidden and flare at the same time, but I've never had the problems getting it to work that other people report.

I can handle equal level elites by switching off between self and pet. However, if it has a big heal like the treants in Ferelas, I can't pull it off. Having feign death makes it safe enough to try out mobs. There is also no way I'd go after a +5 mob. +2 is tough but possible. Beyond that my pet misses too often to maintain agro, and it becomes a dangerous kiting exercise.

Yeah +2 is my normal hunting as well.  I can do a +3 if I'm certain I won't get any adds, can set traps and I have some explosives/ potions for pet heals.

  Anyone consistantly doing elites or +5s should expect a nerf sometime in the future.  Back in the beta there were plenty of people soloing elite even-cons and the complaint was that  elite meant nothing because of this.  Soon after a big 'balance' patch was made with the usual wailing and "OMG I suxorz now!" posts afterwards.

[MrHat]

Threash, I wish I knew what mobs you were killing.  The only elite I can kill is a caster elite.

And my limit is about 4 above my level, more than that, and it gets sketchy -- depends on hit rate/dodge rate.

On a highlight, I did kill 4 L55 mobs at L55 at once today as a rogue, so I guess we are overpowered.

[naum]

Both Detect Hidden and Flare are useless abilities in my XP. Neither are worth the training cost. Didn't know that Detect Hidden is "working as intended"… …that's a joke, silly me, I expected it to work like Track Humanoids, Track Beasts, Track Elementals, Track Demons, etc.…

It worked like that in beta, I understand, and it made rogues worthless in pvp.  A single hunter in a group meant no rogues would ever get near.

Don't rogues have a even "stealthier" mode ability? If so, then that would trump "Detect Hidden", and then force Hunter to cast Flare, but Flare has a very short range…

…seems a better solution than making one class super uber and rendering abilities useless.

[murdoc]

On a highlight, I did kill 4 L55 mobs at L55 at once today as a rogue, so I guess we are overpowered.

I do that too... difference is about 30 levels between you and me.

[Righ]

It worked like that in beta, I understand, and it made rogues worthless in pvp.  A single hunter in a group meant no rogues would ever get near.

I'm not sure why the top DPS class would be worthless. It doesn't seem reasonable that a rogue should be able to sneak into melee range on a group of people who have the very skills required to detect rogues. They're supposed to be hidden, not the invisible man.

Ideally, it should be a "roll of the dice". There should be no way to sneak up on a dozen hunters who are detecting. On the other hand, one rogue should have a reasonable chance to slip past a single detect.

However, I'm not calling for a nerf here - I mean, I play at least one character of every class, and my rogue is coming along nicely. Just saying is all. They'll never balance this thing, so I'd rather they didn't bother and just spent the time writing new content.

[Calantus]

I can't remember if it's 5 or 6 levels higher than you, but at that point it becomes impossible for any class to defeat a normal mob solo. My warrior does ~100 damage per swing with his crowd pummeler. If he turns that against a "breaking point" mob then he goes way way down to ~20 per hit. It's just not possible to take on that kind of damage reduction. My paladin was similar at the same levels (even had the same wep), but I don't have any numbers for him because I don't even try those mobs with him anymore.

Elites stop at +3, but it has to be the right elite to get that high. Otherwise you're looking at +1 or +2.

And as mage... I was shocked when my level 16 mage couldn't solo Hogger, a level 11 elite gnoll.

[Threash]

Hmm lets see, at level 40 in badlands i recall soloing level 44-45 earth elementals with ease, as in at least 3 or 4 one after the other before i needed to rest.  More recently i was soloing level 52 bloodpetals in ungoro crater since 48.  The level 52 birds im killing now in azshara seem easy enough that i doubt a level 47 would have much trouble with them, in fact there was a lvl 46 mage doing them last night.  You gotta pick your spots, i can't solo every equal level elite or every mob 5 levels higher than me, but i can do some.

[MrHat]

Hmm lets see, at level 40 in badlands i recall soloing level 44-45 earth elementals with ease, as in at least 3 or 4 one after the other before i needed to rest.  More recently i was soloing level 52 bloodpetals in ungoro crater since 48.  The level 52 birds im killing now in azshara seem easy enough that i doubt a level 47 would have much trouble with them, in fact there was a lvl 46 mage doing them last night.  You gotta pick your spots, i can't solo every equal level elite or every mob 5 levels higher than me, but i can do some.

Nice, way to pick every single over-con in the game :)

[Calantus]

I should have said "average mob". If I meant merely non-elites I would have said "non-elite mob" but nobody would know that of course. :P

[geldonyetich]

Level alone, elite or not, doesn't really cut it.   There's also varying values of armor class (which deflects an amount of damage the same way it says on your character sheet) and magic resistance.  As you get higher and higher levels, you're going to run into more and more mobs who are exceptionally good at resisting one kind of damage or the other.

As the thread's about Rogues, you'll want to look at what they bring into the fight.   Pretty much no magic, just melee damage with some poisons to debuff or dot the target.   That means the highly armored targets, such as rock elementals or the occational Paladin, are real headaches for the Rogue.   Find a nice soft cloth target and it's slice and dice time - I bet those are the ones you can easily take 5 levels higher than you.

Personally, I think the Rogue shines the best outside of actual combat, by their excellent ability to pick and choose which fights they do or do not want to get involved in.   It's also kinda fun to be able to pick pocket and move on.   Haven't tried doing this to a player yet... probably wouldn't work since Blizzard is sticklers for good balance.   It's really nice for the occational "fetch something from the bottom of a heavily patrolled dungeon" quest.