IPY is done.

[Azaroth]

I was going to post something, but then I got distracted by a bunch of shadowbane stuff. Oh well.

[doubleplus]

Bah, horse's mouth has too much foot to speak?

[Azaroth]

ADD has too much ADD to...

uh

[Moroni]

Forgive him. If you have read a lot of his posts, you will notice he gets a bit too excited with his one liners.

[Azaroth]

Gotta love the avatar though.

[Joe]

Yeah, anyone who goes KITH is ok by me.

[Rodent]

Forgive him. If you have read a lot of his posts, you will notice he gets a bit too excited with his one liners.

Oi! Oneliners is my thing!

[doubleplus]

Forgive him. If you have read a lot of his posts, you will notice he gets a bit too excited with his one liners.

Oi! Oneliners is my thing!

Never bitch! I shall have your FUCKING SOUL!

[Roac]

Umm, the original playbook that came with UO flat out tells new players DO NOT LEAVE THE GUARDZONE WITHOUT LOTS OF FRIENDS OR YOU WILL PROBABLY BE KILLED!

Even if it were read, it would be an irrelevant comment.  Look, trying to mine only to wind up getting corpse raped by a guy when you didn't even have time to register the CORP POR just wasn't fun for the victim.  It doesn't matter if they had an "I told you so", because all they did was to tell the customer that THE GAME WAS UNFUN.  At least for them, the victim.

I like that someone brought up football - but consider that football is a game where the odds are even, the rules are known, and the goals identical.  With UO and PvP, that's not the case.  Want to be a miner?  You're bait.  Want to farm mobs?  You're bait.  Want to explore?  You're bait.  In order to participate in any other aspect of the game, players have to handicap themselves on the "football field", if we were to use the analogy.  You have to scratch PvP skills for non-PvP ones.  Moreover, unlike football, you have to run around with a sub-par "team" for a good while.  It's like trying to take a highschool team against a pro team.  It's not fun.

It's not that PvP is some evil that must be striken from game design, because all that PvP is is player vs player contest; which is included in games like Doom, football, and the rest.  People LOVE to compete, but the only like to do so when the field is fairly even.  Nobody likes it when the deck is stacked dramatically against them.

[Azaroth]

An easter egg hunt on a football field.

But in a sense, I disagree. I'm still allowed to do that, right?

Back in 1997, sure. You had your one choice. Your game was, pretty literally, an easter egg hunt on a football field. And you didn't necessarily have to know anything about the football players before you went looking for egg one. Mind you, I'm a BIG fan of having everyone in one world.

However, nowadays, you go into a MMOG knowing pretty much damn well what you're in for. If you're new to these, it can be a different story. You'll either find out that this is the type of game for you or it isn't. If not, you will move on to a PvP- setting. If so, you precast recall and grab as many eggs as you can before the inevitable pummeling of your 7-year-old pajamaed ass by the 356lb greasy lineman of death and childish insults. That's the game. It's not fair, it's not supposed to be, it's not football. You choose whether to play or not. It's also not all downsides.

I have very little against the basic concept of player freedom that leads to non-consensual PvP (I also think you may need to learn to seperate the two types of PvP). What I do have a problem with are the people that are attracted by it to a game, and the people that exploit it. They make it a pretty bad idea, it isn't a bad idea in and of itself. In fact, I think, if done correctly from a design standpoint, it can add quite a bit of flavour to your game - and without it, there's something lacking, and a feeling of restriction. Whether I feel like killing someone right now or not. I know I'm restricted in that fashion, and I know everyone else is too.

I will admit, however, that anyone mindlessly adding non-con PvP into their game without a damn good plan for it is making a pretty big mistake. Especially nowadays, with MMORPGs more popular than ever with 17 year old frustrated-with-life computer geeks - and because 99% of them simply don't accomodate that shit, they'll all flock to one when it comes out. Especially during the late betas and opening months, possibly really fucking with your launch success.

[Roac]

That's the game. It's not fair, it's not supposed to be, it's not football. You choose whether to play or not.

And too often, they choose not to.  Staying "that's how the game is played" isn't an appropriate response if the issue you're trying to address is "what's the best way to design a game", or something close to it.  It's well understood that "this is how the game is".  The problem is that how it is, isn't working.  Unfair is not fun and that translates to lack of customers, and lack of customers is Death.  Unfair equates to failure.  THAT is how it is.

What I do have a problem with are the people that are attracted by it to a game, and the people that exploit it. They make it a pretty bad idea, it isn't a bad idea in and of itself. In fact, I think, if done correctly from a design standpoint, it can add quite a bit of flavour to your game - and without it, there's something lacking, and a feeling of restriction.

You're contradicting yourself.  Good ideas are ones that work.  If the "It" you refer to is made unworkable by a subset of the game's population, then "It" is a bad idea, period.  To claim that if "It" were done correctly then it would be a good idea is a meaningless statement; anything done right is right.  A is A.  We know.  Problem is, the "It" you refer to is already decidedly not right, not good, and hence not done correctly.