CoH current Achilles: Lack of Bigger Purpose?

[jpark]

What Sky said. It's only an exploit if the sole purpose of the game is to grind experience, levels and skills. If there's actually a game buried in there somewhere, it simply becomes an effect of participation. There can be risk without experience loss.

This quote comes from the pvp thread - I did not want completely derail that thread by focusing on this.

For most folks on F13, myself included, one problem with CoH is that lack of "bigger purpose".  And yet, each time Cryptic takes a step to address this issue, folks here seem to push back a bit.

We want "purpose" and goals to build towards but "we" hate tradeskills and leveling.  Sorta a sword with 2 blades don't you think?

I mean if you guys hate leveling that much - why not just play a first person shooter with no leveling at all?  Behind the act of leveling is the interaction is the community - access to a zone - or taking down a heavy villian.  Behind the act of leveling is the investment in buliding a character that leads to reputation - which makes social & economic systems possible.

My gut tells me CoH will always be casual friendly.  But they can still take steps to expand the scope of the game by non-combat activities and some "elite" accomplishments (more controversial I realize).

This post is poorly stated, so I'll end with a question:

If you agree you would like to see bigger purpose and depth in CoH - what form would that take in terms of further development?

[Fargull]

I believe they are working on a skill system to add greater depth, forenzics and such... However, one thing I would like to see added was utilizing your powers in odd ways, not combat oriented.  Such as using your freezing bolts to hold back a dam crack, or using your hurrican to do the same.. or bubbles.. get the picture.

Kinda like the rescue the falling man from the Spidey II game, not always related to 'those pesky gangs...'.  Hell, even a natural disaster, like an earthquake would be very cool.  Could have heroes with superstrength helping to lift tram cars back onto the rail.  The missions would have to tailor themselves to the individual heroes, which would seem a symantec bitch to me...

[HaemishM]

I am not one who wants to try to "add a bigger purpose" to CoH. The fact that it is so casual friendly is one of the reasons I'm still subscribed to it, even though I don't play every night like I would other MMOG's. I play when I want to. You start adding bigger purposes and most people would agree, that tends to mean "more timesinks" in MMOG language.

They would do better adding breadth to the gameplay, such as what Fargull suggested, than trying to add purpose.

[Sky]

I also want no bigger purpose in CoH. It's a fun beat-em-up, just like it's supposed to be.

I mean if you guys hate leveling that much - why not just play a first person shooter with no leveling at all?

I dunno, if you hate the lack of 'greater depth' (whatever that means), why not play WoW or EQ2 or something? That sword slices in both directions.

[Sable Blaze]

I don't have any problems with it as the way it is now. More to do is always good, but as for depth, well...if it's something like more Hamidon encounters, then don't bother.

Bored level 50s whining on the O-fficial forums isn't a good reason to add more to the game. Simply put, the game doesn't need "raid" content. It sucks and has been done before. CoH doesn't need an end game.

PSO didn't have one, and it did fine. When my RAcaseal hit level 100, she played a few more games  then was retired for a new toon. Occasionally, she'd be dragged out if someone wanted a play in a high level Viridia game or needed an android ranger for some other reason. Same thing will happen with CoH. I've missed enough trials and TFs that I"ll have some considerable exemplaring to do yet even at level 50.

[trias_e]

I think CoH's achilles heel is not the lack of a bigger purpose.  Its that it is simply not fun enough.  It gets old very quickly.  Its just chaos, there is very little character development, there are no strategies to fighting just madly rushing in.

I think they need to work on making more interesting AI, character skills, and character development.  Maybe drop the group size to 8.  Make missions less repetitive.

Maybe this all changes post 20, but I have never been able to play the game longer than 2 weeks without getting miserably bored.

[Sky]

Maybe if it's not fun enough you could play another game.

Just a thought.

[jpark]

I believe they are working on a skill system to add greater depth, forenzics and such... However, one thing I would like to see added was utilizing your powers in odd ways, not combat oriented.  Such as using your freezing bolts to hold back a dam crack, or using your hurrican to do the same.. or bubbles.. get the picture.

Kinda like the rescue the falling man from the Spidey II game, not always related to 'those pesky gangs...'.  Hell, even a natural disaster, like an earthquake would be very cool.  Could have heroes with superstrength helping to lift tram cars back onto the rail.  The missions would have to tailor themselves to the individual heroes, which would seem a symantec bitch to me...

This would be cool.  Hard to implement but quite cool.  And unique.

I agree with HeamishM's phrasing of this - along with similar comments above - that adding more depth / scope to gameplay does not have to mean adding a "bigger purpose" which would not be casual friendly.

[Sky]

Such as using your freezing bolts to hold back a dam crack, or using your hurrican to do the same.. or bubbles.. get the picture.

Someone been playing Xmen:Legends?

[eldaec]

CoH does indeed lack purpose in the sense of realm level goals.

But most MMOGs don't have a great deal in that area....

EQ? Nothing.
DAoC? Only the Relics. Which fewer and fewer people care about.
SWG? I guess you could argue city building. But that is clutching at straws really.

Contrary to popular belief CoH does have some raid content (eg. hamidon) though personal advancement is not significantly tied to it, and the volume of that content is proportional to the number of players high enough to experience it (ie. tiny).

What CoH lacks, relative to other MMOGs, isn't really an 'overall purpose'. What it lacks is alternative and interdependant advancement tracks. Such as trade skills, interior design, or player owned stores.

It's possible the super-seekret-out-of-combat-skill-system tm will help in this respect. But popular opinion seems not to be expecting implementation of that system till early Q2 '05.

[Kageru]

CoH will develop a system of higher level goals about the same time they realise that the pool of MMORPG newbies is not infinite and their retention rate is putting them in decline. There are relatively few people who will keep an active supscription to an occasional game. Same problem as planetside I would imagine.

I do want to try CoH at some point though.

[eldaec]

CoH simultaeneous login numbers are not in decline.

Happily the recent patch enabled us to gain hard numbers if you know where to look.

Admittedly this could change, and endgame content could become important when the lvl 50 population grows to a proportion that is no longer negligable.

Epic alts (next patch) is no worse than EQ AAs or DAoC ToA for that though.

[Phred]

CoH simultaeneous login numbers are not in decline.

They must be adding a ton of new players still then because my supergroup was a ghost town before I quit, and I met many people who commented on the same thing happening with their supergroup as well.

[Xilren's Twin]

CoH simultaeneous login numbers are not in decline.

They must be adding a ton of new players still then because my supergroup was a ghost town before I quit, and I met many people who commented on the same thing happening with their supergroup as well.

I think this is more a symptom of the kinds of players who first tried CoH than a problem with it's retention rates.  Let's face it, this game was very much a dark horse on the mmorpg scene when word of glowing beta players made a lot of experienced mmorpg players try it.  They came into the game with prior experience including bringing guilds with them, much like happened with the BC crew.  The general gist of their reaction seemed to be the same: fun game, too shallow, so many of them left for more grinding fun in current time intensive titles or to anticipate the "next big thing" aka EQ2, WOW, et al.  Thus the SG that were left did become ghost towns.  But luckily, the story didn't end there.

The people who joined after the intial wave, and they seem to be the largest segment of CoH's player base, are people playing their first mmorpg (or maybe finally sticking with a game b/c it suits their playstyle needs).  Whether it was the appeal of the comic universe or the lack of major time investment to advance, but the numbers really do not seem to be in decline.  Any evening that I log for months since release, all of the servers are always in the "yellow" or medium player population state.  And apparently this past halloween weekend some made it into the "red" or heavy use states.  And, almost 99% of the players I see are in supergroups; just not mine.  Of course, thats b/c it's much easier to play with a small group of friends in a guild (with sidekicking and exmplaring) than in any previous game I can think of.  4 friends can make a SG and never need to worry about playing alts or some of them outleveling others of them; that a huge plus for the casual player.

Since the game is easy to play in short spurts, and easy to take a break from and pick up right where you left with your friends,  it's easy to stay subscried to.  As such, I'd be much more interested in overall active subscriber numbers than simultaneous logins.  But overall, I dont think this is a game in decline at all; i think it's doing well.

Xilren

[jpark]

Since the game is easy to play in short spurts, and easy to take a break from and pick up right where you left with your friends,  it's easy to stay subscried to.  As such, I'd be much more interested in overall active subscriber numbers than simultaneous logins.  But overall, I dont think this is a game in decline at all; i think it's doing well.

Xilren

From a business perspective this is ideal.  Like a gym membership sold a Christmas that folks fail to use daily.  You get revenue, but because usage is light - your servers etc. are not taxed so heavily (nor customer service).  Importantly too folks do not race through the content.  A casual player is more cost effective revenue wise than a hardcore gamer.

[Sky]

A casual player is more cost effective revenue wise than a hardcore gamer.

I've been saying that for years, and getting dev teams who develop for the hardcore.

I'm still subbed to CoH, have been since launch, no cancel in sight. Only level 26. No CS overhead, no bitching about lack of content, no bitching about lack of 'depth' (whatever that means), etc. Just a happy, satisfied mmog customer.

I also don't post on the official boards, nor read them. Hopefully Emmert will continue to understand this over time.

[jpark]

...no bitching about lack of 'depth' (whatever that means), etc. Just a happy, satisfied mmog customer.

Careful with this comment Sky - you could get banned from F13 ;)

[HaemishM]

Hey, I'm a happy, satisfied MMOG customer of CoH as well, and I'm about as jaded a motherfucker as you could find around here.

[Kageru]

.... perhaps thats because a Jaded MMORPG'er isn't going to motivated to chase after illusionary end goals and thus they'll favor games that don't have them? Now whether that represents a significant demographic within the MMORPG community will be the interesting experiment.

Games don't need to worry about player retention when they're the hot new game on the scene, alone in a genre and seemingly rewarding to the casual gameplay (which as far as I read was mostly illusory). However being the "hot new thing" and genre novelty doesn't last forever.

I would also expect their population vs. level curve is showing a "hump" of slow levelling gamers steadily moving up the levels. Early power levellers have gone, newbie intake is down. What happens when that hump reaches the end game?

[Lanei]

What happens when that hump reaches the end game?

City of Villains comes out.

[Kageru]

Yep, I would guess that's the plan. Haven't really been following the development of CoV. What does it offer in gameplay terms to keep people subscribed? (which is I guess sort of what the lead question is really asking).

[Sobelius]

I get my kicks in CoH by creating new toons and trying new power combos. I wish leveling 1-30 was as fast as 1-10, since 1-10 is usually about all I can stand with an alt.

My main is only 21 -- played beta and subscribed since. I tend to play her solo.

Next "main" is now 20 -- I play him 3 hours/week on Tuesday nights with a 3 other friends -- we've leveled our foursome together and I'm amazed that just 3 hours/week is enough to keep moving up almost one level/week.

Nowadays I'm only doing the Tuesday night thing since there's so much other new-shiney-stuff-I-want-to-try raining down.

[personman]

Hey, I'm a happy, satisfied MMOG customer of CoH as well, and I'm about as jaded a motherfucker as you could find around here.

/agree

[jpark]

How have you guys found the badge system?

At first I was skeptical but I gotta admit I like it.  It's also cool to look at a bar and see your making progress towards something that is "unknown".

The exploration badges are a really nice touch too.  Fits well with a game that more than any other I have tried has a great physics model and a terrain you can really explore the limits of - thank god(s) I have fly :)

The idea that having so many badges can eventually give a stamina bonus etc is also good.  This system is not unique - other games have similar measures - but CoH's is very ... slick :)

Wondering how this might evolve further so that it was unique...one idea is that we all have a villian type we get bonus damage against - but what villian type that is changes depending upon which villian type we have killed the most of recently.  It might give a faction based system with asthetics that would require some roleplay care - since we would periodically have to pursue missions of a particular villian type to maintain "the hate" with that specific group.

Another idea for scope is something Cryptic talked of sometime ago - that eventually SG's would have some sort of headquarters - where missions would come in unsolicited to the SG - a timed mission of sorts - where only members of the SG could assemble and respond.  That would be very consistent with the comic genre idea of the super team responding to a crises.

Cooler still, what if each SG chooses their own medium to be alerted.  When your SG is alerted it could be a Bat Signal in the Sky (with the accompanying SG text message).

What about cars?  There has been talk here too - it would be hilarious to add knock back or knock up damage to cars - so we would have to pay attention to traffic a bit.  But as heroes we would not take any damage.

[Murgos]

In 3 years this game is going to be amazing.  With the rate that they add 'feature' level stuff in three years I would expect CoH to have moved off in all kinds of interesting directions.

It's the only MMOG I've considred resubbing to ever.  I certainly will when CoV comes out but probably earlier depending on how long EQII and WOW can hold my attention and how cool the next 'issue' or two is.

[Big Gulp]

Hey, I'm a happy, satisfied MMOG customer of CoH as well, and I'm about as jaded a motherfucker as you could find around here.

Same here.  My main is level 50, still play him and various alts.  Still having fun.

I run a supergroup that now has the most amount of members I've ever had, around 60, and now membership has about evened out.  The hardcore MMOGers that came on at launch have pretty much dropped out and we've had a fairly consistent cadre for about 3 months now.

No real catasses to mention, not even me, getting to 50 is ridiculously easy in this game, yet I still have fun with that char even though I'm "at the end game".  I can understand why people wouldn't want to play this game in theory, but in practice I weep for them.

[geldonyetich]

After watching The Incredibles, I'm sorely tempted to get my super hero groove back on, resubscribe to City of Heroes, and see how well it's improved since I've been gone.   Well done, Pixar.

City of Heroes is a fun game.   It's not, however, a very compelling MMORPG due to this lack of "purpose".   I actually wrote up a pretty big article about this.  

When it comes to the lack of overall "purpose" in City of Heroes, you've missed the point if you're looking at leveling and trade skills.   Those might keep you playing, but they're not a real purpose unless you happen to have a big time Achiever mindset going on, and few of us burned out MMORPG veterans still do.  In a later article, I better elaborated on why trade skills and leveling treadmills just aren't doing it anymore: "For some people, simply hammering away at that experience bar and gaining levels are enough. However, as I've earlier elaborated, in time most people become inoculated against this. They realize the artificial nature of the leveling bars, and in doing so, destroy the illusion that what they are doing is a worthwhile activity. "

My previous diagnosis for City of Heroes is that one of the main reasons it lacks a purpose is because socialization is so weak.   However, it's been awhile since I last played, maybe this has improved a bit.  

Also, I stress, there's more possible purposes a game can bring to the table besides the hook of socialization.   Long reaching consiquences, even consistant patching such as CoH has been doing, these can grant a purpose of sorts (since you always want to stick around and see what happens next).    Perhaps even roleplay would suffice for a purpose, if one is feeling it's syncing with their game experience.  

Clearly some players here have found a purpose in City of Heroes, and I would never say that an individual's tastes do not factor into what someone finds purposeful.   For those that find CoH purposeful enough already, maybe the best thing to do is not to evaluate it and just have fun.

[Fargull]

Such as using your freezing bolts to hold back a dam crack, or using your hurrican to do the same.. or bubbles.. get the picture.

Someone been playing Xmen:Legends?

Yup Yup.  No innovation here...

[Shockeye]

I actually wrote up a pretty big article about this.

I wouldn't call that "a pretty big article".

[geldonyetich]

I remembered it as big ;) But you're right, it's not that big, only 750 words or so.   For the purposes (if you pardon the pun) of this conversation, the other article I wrote (at a more respectable 3221 words) is a bit more to the point.  

City of Heroes has fun gameplay starting at the very GUI, which is great.    However, it does lack some of the things I identified as helping to contribute to a overall purpose: Longlasting or far reaching reprocussions to actions, motivation to socialize, ect.   Yet, CoH's not completely without purpose-granting merit either, as I mentioned having frequent patches and developer communcation can help to add to a purpose to continue playing.