New PVP Stuff - 2.4 And Beyond

[Simond]

Kara is supposed to have its keying removed in 2.4 as well, apparently.

[MrHat]

Yup.  All they need to do is drop the raid timer off it and it will be all set to be casual.

Otherwise, barring 3-4 hours of free time (time to set up a karapug and do it with a decently geared casual group who sorta knows what they're doing), heroics are the only way to get badges.

[Dren]

Kara is supposed to have its keying removed in 2.4 as well, apparently.

The only reason I can see heroics being done past 2.4 is for rep gains.  Even then, why bother for the most part.

I suppose true PuG players need someplace to get badges, but even then they will be farming the hell out of the easiest ones.  Plus, Karazhan might even be PuG'able after this change.  I wouldn't wish that upon even my worst enemy, but it IS possible.

[Gobbeldygook]

Even really casual players can sneak into a Kara pug at this point, and a lot of rep/badge epics outshine the actual epics that DROP in the heroics.

You forgot many, many epics on your list, especially the ones that are meant for hybrid classes.  But don't be blinded by purple.  There are many excellent re-itemized blues in heroics that you would be a idiot to overlook.  Just a few off the top of my head, the retribution paladin libram from the first boss in BF was(or is; not sure how 2.4 will change this) best-in-slot, quagmirran's eye from quag, the icon in BF, etc.

Anyway, it's the design intent that the epics from badges are better than anything that actually drops in heroics.  If they weren't, everyone that could run kara or better would spit on heroics and never ever run them.  I sure as hell wouldn't tank most heroics; I neither need nor want any of the drops.  Dangle a shiny or fuck off.  I can get Tier 5(And in 2.4, Tier 6)-caliber gear for running mech, so I'm happy to do so.
---
I completed Heroic Shattered Halls as a warrior inside the time limit.  You just need to be a bit more of a dick about PUG quality and bring two strong CC(rogue, mage, maybe a hunter).  Pull fast. My armory if you're curious; I did it a long time ago, so my gear was much worse (No gnomer trinket, no maiden gloves or moroes belt, no badge pants, ogri'la crossbow, ogri'la shield, no netherwing trinket, honored or so Kara ring, no lower city ring).

The only reason I can see heroics being done past 2.4 is for rep gains.  Even then, why bother for the most part.

I can still only run Kara once a week.  That's only 22 badges/week, which is nowhere near what I need to fulfill my endless need for badges.

[MrHat]

What should happen is they should retool all the old instances (all of them) to be heroic capable.  Options are win.

Also, while I'm dreaming, let me reskin my armor to be whatever armor I want.

ie.  I equip the scarlet mail set in my 'looks' tab and my stat equipment in my 'works' tab.  Then I have the gladiator set stats but w/ the scarlet mail looks.  Still have to farm both sets and lets me do whatever the fux I want with my looks.


Edit: They just need to drop the lock out on Kara and ZA.

[Dren]

The only reason I can see heroics being done past 2.4 is for rep gains.  Even then, why bother for the most part.

I can still only run Kara once a week.  That's only 22 badges/week, which is nowhere near what I need to fulfill my endless need for badges.

I only said that from the standpoint of a casual player.  If you are able to cruise through Karazhan and hit multiple heroics on top of that within a week, I wouldn't classify you as casual YMMV.  It takes everything I have to make a full Karazhan run in a week.  For my time spent, Karazhan gives me more bang for my buck than a heroic.  Now, I say that based on me being in a guild that runs weekly Karazhan (1 or 2 groups,) so again YMMV.

I have to ask:  If you can spend that much time on badge farming, why not join a guild hitting mutiple raid instances for even better equipment drops?  I suppose the answer is that raiding isn't your bag or you like your independence, etc. 

For me, my time outside of Karazhan is spent on alts or PvP.

[Chimpy]

Edit: They just need to drop the lock out on Kara and ZA.

Z'A lockout is only 3 days right now. Which puts it pn par with the # badges you would get (and amount of time spent) from doing Botanica (most badges) 3 days in a row.

[Dren]

Edit: They just need to drop the lock out on Kara and ZA.

Z'A lockout is only 3 days right now. Which puts it pn par with the # badges you would get (and amount of time spent) from doing Botanica (most badges) 3 days in a row.

The trouble with ZA right now is that it is damn hard.  Our guild finally attempted the first boss last night.  They got him after mutiple wipes and putting all of our very best geared characters at it (geared from Karazhan.)

Until they "retune" the instance like all the past instances, it really isn't a "casual" experience.  It looks like you have to basically go do 25-man raids to get past the gear checks as they are now.  2-3 season PvP gear might get you there though.  Again, not casual.

[Gobbeldygook]

I have to ask:  If you can spend that much time on badge farming, why not join a guild hitting mutiple raid instances for even better equipment drops?  I suppose the answer is that raiding isn't your bag or you like your independence, etc.

It's several factors.

1. My guild is composed solely of people from corpnews/lumthemad/etc.  We have yet to recruit any...outsiders.  It's only last week that I finally organized an in-guild kara run.  We cleared it over a period of two nights in a total of six hours in-instance, not counting time spent finding PUGs.  Slow, but good considering it was the first time I had the entire gang there.  Building up to 25-man level is not in the tea leaves.

2. I can run a heroic any time I want to.  It takes me less than two hours to run any heroic in the game.  There are many that I can run in less than an hour.  25-man raiding requires I schedule 24 other people of varying levels of mouthbreathing, setup a DKP system, etc, etc.  More importantly, most of them will not be people I've known for years out of game.

However, we're planning to organize some Gruul/Magtheridon PUGs eventually; we simply fill all of the critical roles and throw some PUGs of varying quality at the boss too.  We can make it work

---

ZA is probably overly tuned, but I dispute the idea that you need the gear from 25 man's to run it.  I believe a guild on my server cleared it with no more than Tier 4 - which is (mostly) not better than badge gear everyone has access to.  I've run the bear boss, and it's mostly a tank/healer check.  The difficulty was not helped by the other tank STACKING AVOIDANCE ARRRRRGGGGH.  I will get back to you on this in a few weeks.

(and amount of time spent) from doing Botanica (most badges)

Shattered Halls gives 5 if you do it right.

[Chimpy]

The trouble with ZA right now is that it is damn hard.  Our guild finally attempted the first boss last night.  They got him after mutiple wipes and putting all of our very best geared characters at it (geared from Karazhan.)

Until they "retune" the instance like all the past instances, it really isn't a "casual" experience.  It looks like you have to basically go do 25-man raids to get past the gear checks as they are now.  2-3 season PvP gear might get you there though.  Again, not casual.

Z'A is a little overtuned, agreed. But the Blizzard perspective is that because it is non-linear, and it is "doable" with t4 geared characters, there is no need change the tuning drastically. You can go in and work on one boss for one timer, then the next timer work on another, and so on until you get to the point of being able to down 2-3 bosses, then 3-4, then it is all downhill from there.

I don't really have much in the way of commentary on Z'A atm as I have not been in the zone in 2 months. We tend to just do kara for badges/cash because Z'A is a royal pain in the ass getting the right raid comp, and half the time when we do, we end up having to go for the timed run which is possibly the most stressful 90minutes you can have in wow.

[Paelos]

You can do parts of ZA in T4. And by parts I mean that you can do the animal bosses with a lot of practice and the correct classes.

Then, you get to Malacrass, and that goes right the hell out of the window. There's absolutely no way I can see people that aren't in some semblence of T5 or better gear dealing with the 9k AE on everybody, 4 adds, and the crazy amount of mana drain the healers have to get through. Oh, and stacking damage every minute, soulstealing abilities from your classes, fears, mind control, mortal strikes, etc.

[Chimpy]

Then, you get to Malacrass, and that goes right the hell out of the window. There's absolutely no way I can see people that aren't in some semblence of T5 or better gear dealing with the 9k AE on everybody, 4 adds, and the crazy amount of mana drain the healers have to get through. Oh, and stacking damage every minute, soulstealing abilities from your classes, fears, mind control, mortal strikes, etc.

Getting everyone up to 150 SR with the shadow protection Buff (requires about 75 SR, easily obtainable from 1-2 green BoE pieces and a BoE JC neck) cuts the dmg from his SB volley by more than half.

The first time we did it outside of our timed runs in the first 2 weeks the zone was open we did it with alts/non raiding people in a smattering of Kara/Badge gear, our main tank was wearing nothing from a 25 man instance, and the only t5+ person in the raid was a pally healer. And we cleared the whole place, so the whole place is doable in t4/badge gear, it just takes more work. The issue people in my guild have with Z'A is that the zone is 80% about execution, which, outside of Archimonde/Kael'Thas/Vashj, you really don't need that level of precise execution to succeed, and Most of the zone is like that. No amount of tier 6 is going to let you brute force through that zone with half your group afk like you can in kara, thus the reward is outweighed by the effort. Illidan has a larger margin of error than the dragonhawk trash does.

[Fabricated]

Even really casual players can sneak into a Kara pug at this point, and a lot of rep/badge epics outshine the actual epics that DROP in the heroics.

You forgot many, many epics on your list, especially the ones that are meant for hybrid classes.  But don't be blinded by purple.  There are many excellent re-itemized blues in heroics that you would be a idiot to overlook.  Just a few off the top of my head, the retribution paladin libram from the first boss in BF was(or is; not sure how 2.4 will change this) best-in-slot, quagmirran's eye from quag, the icon in BF, etc.

Anyway, it's the design intent that the epics from badges are better than anything that actually drops in heroics.  If they weren't, everyone that could run kara or better would spit on heroics and never ever run them.  I sure as hell wouldn't tank most heroics; I neither need nor want any of the drops.  Dangle a shiny or fuck off.  I can get Tier 5(And in 2.4, Tier 6)-caliber gear for running mech, so I'm happy to do so.
---
I completed Heroic Shattered Halls as a warrior inside the time limit.  You just need to be a bit more of a dick about PUG quality and bring two strong CC(rogue, mage, maybe a hunter).  Pull fast. My armory if you're curious; I did it a long time ago, so my gear was much worse (No gnomer trinket, no maiden gloves or moroes belt, no badge pants, ogri'la crossbow, ogri'la shield, no netherwing trinket, honored or so Kara ring, no lower city ring).

The only reason I can see heroics being done past 2.4 is for rep gains.  Even then, why bother for the most part.

I can still only run Kara once a week.  That's only 22 badges/week, which is nowhere near what I need to fulfill my endless need for badges.

There's some really pimp blues in heroics yes but not in terms of armor/weapons. Trinkets, rings, and totems/librams/idols yeah, but badge/kara pieces are far better and easier to get. Kara particularly since some classes can goddamn near get a whole set together from the first 5 bosses + Chess.

The item level of the heroic epic drops aren't what concern me, they're about right (ignoring the weapons which need bumped to ilevel 110). It's just that most of them are so poorly itemized it's a joke. The tank pieces SUCK. A little defense and a smattering of STR/AGI/STA does not a tank piece make. The caster pieces largely blow their budget on raw stats and provide little in the way of hit/crit/+dmg, or somehow manage to spend their budget in such a way that they're a side-grade from better itemized blues. The rogue gloves had the questionable Immunity to Disarm, which was nerfed. The anti-silence caster neck was nerfed repeatedly. The odds and ends (shitty hunter sword, rogue shoulders) are gimpy compared to some blues. When I took my then, all blue'd mage into heroic Slave Pens I was far more interested in the trinket than the epic boots that drop there since my blue quest-reward boots were largely better.

Basically, what I'm saying that is if you're doing a heroic in all blues and an epic piece seemingly itemized for your class and spec drops, it should be an upgrade instead of an "eh, shard it."

[Fordel]

Probably my biggest issue with heroics is how damn variable they are in 'difficulty' depending on what classes you bring and which instance you decide to do. The drops being useful would really help things too mind you, but it's the leap from say Heroic Pens where I'm like "this isn't so bad, harder, but doable" to things like Heroic Mana-Tombs where I'm going "OW, my Pancreas!"


I have a harder time tanking the trash in half the heroics out there, then I do tanking anything in Kara itself.

[Dren]

I will have to admit one thing.  It seems like Karazhan favors Healadins.  Not only have I benefitted from this, but I've seen two other healadins in our guild get fairly well completed sets from there really quickly.  I'm constantly seeing us DE healadin items now or giving them to paladins for their off-heal gear.

My priest and warlock do not get the same level of love by comparison.

Rogue do fairly well.

[Chimpy]

I will have to admit one thing.  It seems like Karazhan favors Healadins.  Not only have I benefitted from this, but I've seen two other healadins in our guild get fairly well completed sets from there really quickly.  I'm constantly seeing us DE healadin items now or giving them to paladins for their off-heal gear.

My priest and warlock do not get the same level of love by comparison.

Rogue do fairly well.

Well, priests/mages/warlocks do have a huge advantage over all other classes in that they can get tier5+ quality gear through tailoring. And kara gear is somewhat balanced around the assumption that they would have those items.

Kara is a crapshoot for loot, depending on the luck of your group you could see every item you want from there in one run, or be exalted 12x over and never see the one item you really need. It is not a lack of loot for a given spec (well except ret pallies who get 0 love in kara) or a edearth of items for another, it is just that there is so much different loot with so few "drop slots" that sometimes the zone seems to hate you.

[Paelos]

The first time we did it outside of our timed runs in the first 2 weeks the zone was open we did it with alts/non raiding people in a smattering of Kara/Badge gear, our main tank was wearing nothing from a 25 man instance, and the only t5+ person in the raid was a pally healer. And we cleared the whole place, so the whole place is doable in t4/badge gear, it just takes more work. The issue people in my guild have with Z'A is that the zone is 80% about execution, which, outside of Archimonde/Kael'Thas/Vashj, you really don't need that level of precise execution to succeed, and Most of the zone is like that. No amount of tier 6 is going to let you brute force through that zone with half your group afk like you can in kara, thus the reward is outweighed by the effort. Illidan has a larger margin of error than the dragonhawk trash does.

That's sort of my issue as well. That sort of execution error has no place in a 10 man.

[Gobbeldygook]

I will have to admit one thing.  It seems like Karazhan favors Healadins.  Not only have I benefitted from this, but I've seen two other healadins in our guild get fairly well completed sets from there really quickly.  I'm constantly seeing us DE healadin items now or giving them to paladins for their off-heal gear.

Who else can use the crap?  There might be one healadin in a kara raid.  If ANY piece of plate heal gear drops, he gets it because he never gets need-fucked out of gear.  Once he gets his one piece, you never want it to drop again.  Tanks often finish THEIR DPS sets at the same time actual DPSers are doing so because the tanks never have to fight anyone but the rare DPS warrior(Most of whom are just lazy useless fucks unwilling to eat respec costs between PVE and PVP) and other tanks for drops.  Meanwhile, all pieces of leather DPS gear are viciously fought over by enhancement shaman, DPS warriors, feral druids, and rogues.  If you're interested, I generated a graph that shows what % of people with Kara loot are a given class.

That's sort of my issue as well. That sort of execution error has no place in a 10 man.

Why not?  Why should 10 man instances = lol n00bs collect your epics?  There's no reason we can't have REALLY HARD content for every group size, although it's much easier to make hard content when you're dealing with a larger group.

[Koyasha]

That's sort of my issue as well. That sort of execution error has no place in a 10 man.

I disagree with this entirely.  This is exactly what there should be more of, in all levels of content from 5 to 25 to infinity-man content, things that require good execution and skill on the part of the players.  It's also exactly what lots and lots of people say they want (they obviously don't REALLY want it, cause they bitch about it when they get it) - content that provides good rewards, can be done quickly, is very difficult without requiring huge numbers of people.  I've not been to Zul'aman yet, but from Chimpy's description that's exactly what this is, and what happens?  .....yeah.  Thought so.

[Dren]

I'm fine with ZA being as hard as it is.  It is just like Karazhan in the beginning.  Let those that love the hard content go bang their heads on it.  They like it.  I don't.  Not a big deal.  Karazhan is the right difficulty level for our guild.  ZA is a bit out of reach, but we are getting our toes wet.  By the next launch of the new 10-man, I expect them to soften ZA so that the new 10-man is the Pinnacle of hard-core difficulty.

Will we always be behind in being fully geared in the very best stuff?  Yes.  I don't think anybody in our giuld really cares.  A few might care.  Those are probably the ones that PUG into some alliances we have for the 25-man stuff and ZA.  Good for them.

I'm patient.  I can wait for my carrot.  Actually, while I wait, I get my carrot via PvP!

[Paelos]

That's sort of my issue as well. That sort of execution error has no place in a 10 man.

I disagree with this entirely.  This is exactly what there should be more of, in all levels of content from 5 to 25 to infinity-man content, things that require good execution and skill on the part of the players.  It's also exactly what lots and lots of people say they want (they obviously don't REALLY want it, cause they bitch about it when they get it) - content that provides good rewards, can be done quickly, is very difficult without requiring huge numbers of people.  I've not been to Zul'aman yet, but from Chimpy's description that's exactly what this is, and what happens?  .....yeah.  Thought so.

Thanks for weighing in on something you've never done. Bravo.

You also missed the point. ZA isn't hard, it's poorly paced and overly punative. ZA has one major issue right now that have to be corrected in order for it to be properly tuned to the pacing they want. The Dragonhawk trash is retarded. It took all the stupidity of the BWL suppression room and made it worse. If they fixed that one area, and perhaps took out a few of the groups on the way to the Lynx, it would be perfectly paced. Also, the boss fights take way too fucking long at the end.

[SurfD]

Dragonhawk trash is fine.   Controll the Scouts and it is almost easier then the Eagle gauntlet.  Scouts can be stunned and snared, and have rather low HP, just have a rogue or someone keeping an eye out for them, and slaugher them before they get to react.  That, and you can skip like a large chunk of the dragon hawk pulls.

[Paelos]

Dragonhawk trash is fine.   Controll the Scouts and it is almost easier then the Eagle gauntlet.  Scouts can be stunned and snared, and have rather low HP, just have a rogue or someone keeping an eye out for them, and slaugher them before they get to react.  That, and you can skip like a large chunk of the dragon hawk pulls.

I see. So you're ok with this design decision then? Gauntlets are an acceptable way of controlling raid content? They add something to the game for you?

[SurfD]

The gauntlets are not really a problem. They are there primarily as the major hurdle that needs to be overcome if you intend to do a Bear Mount chest run (in which case, you are going to want gear that is somewhat better then base karazan gear).

The Eagle Gauntlet and DragonHawk semi gauntlet are not that difficult if you are not trying to beat the timer.  As i said, the dragonhawk part is pretty easy.  All you need to do is gangbang the scouts, drop the flamecasters fast, and keep an eye out for new scout spawns, and you should have no problem with it.

[Montague]

That's sort of my issue as well. That sort of execution error has no place in a 10 man.

I disagree with this entirely.  This is exactly what there should be more of, in all levels of content from 5 to 25 to infinity-man content, things that require good execution and skill on the part of the players.  It's also exactly what lots and lots of people say they want (they obviously don't REALLY want it, cause they bitch about it when they get it) - content that provides good rewards, can be done quickly, is very difficult without requiring huge numbers of people.  I've not been to Zul'aman yet, but from Chimpy's description that's exactly what this is, and what happens?  .....yeah.  Thought so.

The only place I've seen that kind of thinking is on the WoW boards, with level 10 alts trying to oute-peen the other level 5 alts, and the occasional level 70 main from a BT guild. All the players I've spoken to in-game want more content, not more difficult content.

[Chimpy]

The only place I've seen that kind of thinking is on the WoW boards, with level 10 alts trying to oute-peen the other level 5 alts, and the occasional level 70 main from a BT guild. All the players I've spoken to in-game want more content, not more difficult content.

I am posting on my alt of my 70 main in an Illidan farming guild to say: "I want fun content, and more variety to said fun"

And retard-checks end up not being fun because it is seemingly impossible to group with more than 5 people at once and NOT have one person who would have fit into the cast of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. And 80% of the fights in BC raids are retard checks, 10% are gear checks, and 10% are "is your luck good today?" checks.

I still find it somewhat maddening that the absolute most fun encounter Blizzard's raid encounter team ever designed was at the end of the worst overall zone design. C'Thun is the one pre-expansion fight I have any real desire to ever see again.

[Paelos]

Nevermind, I read that wrong.

[Koyasha]

I am posting on my alt of my 70 main in an Illidan farming guild to say: "I want fun content, and more variety to said fun"

And retard-checks end up not being fun because it is seemingly impossible to group with more than 5 people at once and NOT have one person who would have fit into the cast of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. And 80% of the fights in BC raids are retard checks, 10% are gear checks, and 10% are "is your luck good today?" checks.

I still find it somewhat maddening that the absolute most fun encounter Blizzard's raid encounter team ever designed was at the end of the worst overall zone design. C'Thun is the one pre-expansion fight I have any real desire to ever see again.

I just did C'thun last week, and when I think about how that fight was at 60 with 40 people, I can't imagine it being anything but a retard check.  Don't react to every single thing exactly right and the entire raid blows up.  Stand too close to other people, raid blows up.  Don't spread out immediately after fleeing from the red beam, raid blows up.  Don't take out the right tentacles in the right order, raid blows up.  Tank not paying attention and doesn't grab the giant claw tentacle in time, three random people bite it.  Don't stun the giant eye tentacle fast enough, raid blows up.  Not to mention the little tentacles that mind flay probably weren't soloable by healing priests back then, meaning you needed to have fast on-the-ball DPS to run around killing them.

Yes, that was an astonishingly fun fight, but as far as I see it's because everybody had to be performing very well throughout the encounter.

[SurfD]

My personal favourite with C'thun was always the "someone aggroed him before we were ready and 2/3 of the raid instantly bite it (last person hit eats a 9 million nature damage hit)"

[Paelos]

From what I hear now, warriors can spell reflect the beam and send him into phase 2 immediately.

[Chimpy]

I just did C'thun last week, and when I think about how that fight was at 60 with 40 people, I can't imagine it being anything but a retard check.  Don't react to every single thing exactly right and the entire raid blows up.  Stand too close to other people, raid blows up.  Don't spread out immediately after fleeing from the red beam, raid blows up.  Don't take out the right tentacles in the right order, raid blows up.  Tank not paying attention and doesn't grab the giant claw tentacle in time, three random people bite it.  Don't stun the giant eye tentacle fast enough, raid blows up.  Not to mention the little tentacles that mind flay probably weren't soloable by healing priests back then, meaning you needed to have fast on-the-ball DPS to run around killing them.

Yes, that was an astonishingly fun fight, but as far as I see it's because everybody had to be performing very well throughout the encounter.

Ya it was a retard check, but nowhere near on the level of BC stuff. As long as you could get people to stay spread out in phase 1, and get them to understand how far they needed to run on the big beam it was not too bad. It you set up your positioning for phase2 with everyone on one side it was a lot easier because no one had to run all the way around him to get to the tentacles.

Fight was fun even for the retard check-ness. Being crit for 44million nature dmg with 44million resisted, YOU DIE. was a much more enjoyable death than "boss X's dispellable DoT hits you for 1000 dmg, you die".

[fuser]

Well, priests/mages/warlocks do have a huge advantage over all other classes in that they can get tier5+ quality gear through tailoring. And kara gear is somewhat balanced around the assumption that they would have those items.

Yep, and it's very easy to make. With about ~500g seed money on an alt, and suppling two friends (shadow cloth tailors) with mats I had all three parts of the frozen shadoweave done at 62.